leg gym work
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British cycling/ Sky track teams have always done lots of it. So one might speculate that they are basing this on some research.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:Yes, I know. My original post was making the point that there is no obvious correlation between leg strength and endurance power and whether the same applied to short power efforts 5 sec to 1 minute (as per Ugo's goal)? I don't know as I have not seen any studies that looked specifically at strength training and sprint power.
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I used to do gym work fairly regularly for my old sport of canoe slalom. I now do it only in the winter. My reason for doing the weights has changed, I don't expect any great advantage for the cycling, it is more because I believe that it is good for my overall fitness and injury prevention as I am now well into my 60s.
I almost exclusively use free weights, and I go heavy (for me) so that on my last set of an exercise I am aiming to fail at 6 reps or less. I am not a lover of machines, they focus on the main motivator muscles while neglecting the associated stabilising muscles. This creates a strength inbalance so that when these muscles are used in a real-life situation the stabilising muscles are too weak and the result is you are unable to use all the strength gains, plus there is an increased risk of injury. Furthermore some machines constrain the movement unnaturally which also can cause injury, sometimes long-term.
The risks of moving heavy weights in the deadlift are overstated, good form is essential though. I think that these days you wil find that the top athletes in most sports are doing regular dead-lifts and squats as part of their gym routines.3 -
… the other reason I don’t like squats is that I get dizzy at the end of a series… apparently it is commonleft the forum March 20230
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Have you looked into plyometrics with lighter weights - at least as a complement to heavier lifting. It may not develop the same pure strength but should help develop force production.
Bit of a tangent but I always found squats hard because of my knees - my leg press was reasonably good - more recently I've been doing goblet squats and different lunges with lightish weights more for general health - getting full range of motion with stability and without pain. A bonus is it's helped with knee pain I used to get if I did a lot of indoor turbo training - which with zwift I do tend to do over Winter.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1 -
95kg…left the forum March 20230
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Blimey Ugo, I thought you were only about 75kg, you must have been hitting those weights like an animal if you have already put 20kg of leg muscle on
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Have you ignored most of the replies and carried on with the leg press machine?ugo.santalucia said:95kg…
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
yeah… can’t sit on the bowl today, must be doing some good… 😂pangolin said:
Have you ignored most of the replies and carried on with the leg press machine?ugo.santalucia said:95kg…
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67… I should really be 65, but that is proving hard in the absence of stress and anxietyMidlandsGrimpeur2 said:Blimey Ugo, I thought you were only about 75kg, you must have been hitting those weights like an animal if you have already put 20kg of leg muscle on
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What I find annoying about all of the advice is how they constantly point towards using heavy weights but "don't use too heavy weights"... in my experience the line between not enough/ineffective and too much to lift safely is pretty thin (probably 10 kg difference for many lifts) and you kind of learn by mistakes how much is too much. In the process, you might well pick up an injury... gym staff are typically not very useful in this respect and most people will not want to pay for a personal trainer (some of whom might well be charlatans, I should add)...
Hence my leaning towards a machine, which at least has a safety feature built in, for when you go a bit overboard with the weightsleft the forum March 20230 -
It's fairly easy to know if your'e going too heavy, you will lose "form", in other words you will start to cheat to enable you to move the weight which might mean simply not going deep enough in a squat, or straightening your back when doing a row. If you learn the difference between good and bad form it should be impossible to go too heavy.
You can go too heavy on machines too! You see it all the time on the leg press machine, people loading it up with 300 kg or so and bending their legs about 30 degrees thinking that theyr'e impressing everybody.0 -
The more modern machines have a display that tell you if you are doing it wrong.davebradswmb said:
You can go too heavy on machines too! You see it all the time on the leg press machine, people loading it up with 300 kg or so and bending their legs about 30 degrees thinking that theyr'e impressing everybody.
With free weights I am really unsure what I am doing and if I am going it right... so I am unlikley to ever try to lift some serious weights... staff in gyms are typically only interested in looking after younger girls with breast implants and injected lips... understandably, if I was in that age group and doing that job for living wage, I would probably try to make the most of it too...
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This isn't my experience, I am currently being pretty conservative with my (free) weight workouts and focusing more on technique but am still seeing pretty good strength gains. What are you basing this on?ugo.santalucia said:What I find annoying about all of the advice is how they constantly point towards using heavy weights but "don't use too heavy weights"... in my experience the line between not enough/ineffective and too much to lift safely is pretty thin (probably 10 kg difference for many lifts) and you kind of learn by mistakes how much is too much. In the process, you might well pick up an injury... gym staff are typically not very useful in this respect and most people will not want to pay for a personal trainer (some of whom might well be charlatans, I should add)...
Hence my leaning towards a machine, which at least has a safety feature built in, for when you go a bit overboard with the weights0 -
Well, when doing a given exercise with 80kg resistance, day after I was absolutely fine, no soreness at all, as a sign that probably did not stimulate things very much...joeyhalloran said:
This isn't my experience, I am currently being pretty conservative with my (free) weight workouts and focusing more on technique but am still seeing pretty good strength gains. What are you basing this on?ugo.santalucia said:What I find annoying about all of the advice is how they constantly point towards using heavy weights but "don't use too heavy weights"... in my experience the line between not enough/ineffective and too much to lift safely is pretty thin (probably 10 kg difference for many lifts) and you kind of learn by mistakes how much is too much. In the process, you might well pick up an injury... gym staff are typically not very useful in this respect and most people will not want to pay for a personal trainer (some of whom might well be charlatans, I should add)...
Hence my leaning towards a machine, which at least has a safety feature built in, for when you go a bit overboard with the weights
ramp it up to 95kg and I am in pain for 3 days, as a sign that it might be OK or maybe slightly too much... I guess the optimum is somewhere between the two, which is a fairly narrow range.
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If I found 80 kg was a little too easy I would go up to 85 kg on my next visit, 95 kg is a 20% increase in weight, not such a narrow range. Would you call a 20% increase in your FTP small?0
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I would suggest you are going to the wrong type of gym then! Get a good personal trainer who knows what they are doing, when you know what good form is, you can then carry on by yourself. As pointed out above when you have good form it is difficult to go too heavy.ugo.santalucia said:
The more modern machines have a display that tell you if you are doing it wrong.davebradswmb said:
You can go too heavy on machines too! You see it all the time on the leg press machine, people loading it up with 300 kg or so and bending their legs about 30 degrees thinking that theyr'e impressing everybody.
With free weights I am really unsure what I am doing and if I am going it right... so I am unlikley to ever try to lift some serious weights... staff in gyms are typically only interested in looking after younger girls with breast implants and injected lips... understandably, if I was in that age group and doing that job for living wage, I would probably try to make the most of it too...0 -
Well, if it was a bar bell, you'd have to add the minimum amount, which would probably be an extra 10 kg... unless you want to go around and find the elusive 2.5kg discs...davebradswmb said:If I found 80 kg was a little too easy I would go up to 85 kg on my next visit, 95 kg is a 20% increase in weight, not such a narrow range. Would you call a 20% increase in your FTP small?
As for the FTP, I have on occasions pumped it up by 20% to make sense of a session that was otherwise too easy...left the forum March 20230 -
You could be right... but you have to work with what you've got... if I picked a gym which is 10 miles away, I know I would always find a reason not to go...yellowv2 said:
I would suggest you are going to the wrong type of gym then! Get a good personal trainer who knows what they are doing, when you know what good form is, you can then carry on by yourself. As pointed out above when you have good form it is difficult to go too heavy.ugo.santalucia said:
The more modern machines have a display that tell you if you are doing it wrong.davebradswmb said:
You can go too heavy on machines too! You see it all the time on the leg press machine, people loading it up with 300 kg or so and bending their legs about 30 degrees thinking that theyr'e impressing everybody.
With free weights I am really unsure what I am doing and if I am going it right... so I am unlikley to ever try to lift some serious weights... staff in gyms are typically only interested in looking after younger girls with breast implants and injected lips... understandably, if I was in that age group and doing that job for living wage, I would probably try to make the most of it too...
The bottom line is that this idea that you can always rely on someone professional showing you the correct technique to make the most of the exercise and avoid injury is flawed. In most gyms I have been, staff is clueless and underqualified... which his not a surprise given how little they are paid. It's going to get worse with the new Government rules on immigration...
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Youtube and a mirror will get you better results than a lot of PTs I reckon.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono1 -
the Boardman methodpangolin said:Youtube and a mirror will get you better results than a lot of PTs I reckon.
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I wouldn't equate DOMs with the effectiveness of an exercise. I've got to the point where I can do a 1-hour turbo session without feeling DOMs after and still see my cycling performance going up, the same is true for strength training IME.ugo.santalucia said:
Well, when doing a given exercise with 80kg resistance, day after I was absolutely fine, no soreness at all, as a sign that probably did not stimulate things very much...
ramp it up to 95kg and I am in pain for 3 days, as a sign that it might be OK or maybe slightly too much... I guess the optimum is somewhere between the two, which is a fairly narrow range.0 -
I wish we all stopped talking about FTP, which is a measure of nothing and doesn't mean anything. I have done better at races at my lowest point of alleged FTP than I have done at my best. FTP is a measure of how clever you have become at getting the best number out of the test... in practice it doesn't serve any purpose... not even the purpose it is meant to serve, which is to guide training sessions.joeyhalloran said:
I wouldn't equate DOMs with the effectiveness of an exercise. I've got to the point where I can do a 1-hour turbo session without feeling DOMs after and still see my FTP going up, the same is true for strength training IME.ugo.santalucia said:
Well, when doing a given exercise with 80kg resistance, day after I was absolutely fine, no soreness at all, as a sign that probably did not stimulate things very much...
ramp it up to 95kg and I am in pain for 3 days, as a sign that it might be OK or maybe slightly too much... I guess the optimum is somewhere between the two, which is a fairly narrow range.left the forum March 20230 -
Fixed my previous post0
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i wouldn’t disagree and yes it may not be easy to find a good PT.ugo.santalucia said:
You could be right... but you have to work with what you've got... if I picked a gym which is 10 miles away, I know I would always find a reason not to go...yellowv2 said:
I would suggest you are going to the wrong type of gym then! Get a good personal trainer who knows what they are doing, when you know what good form is, you can then carry on by yourself. As pointed out above when you have good form it is difficult to go too heavy.ugo.santalucia said:
The more modern machines have a display that tell you if you are doing it wrong.davebradswmb said:
You can go too heavy on machines too! You see it all the time on the leg press machine, people loading it up with 300 kg or so and bending their legs about 30 degrees thinking that theyr'e impressing everybody.
With free weights I am really unsure what I am doing and if I am going it right... so I am unlikley to ever try to lift some serious weights... staff in gyms are typically only interested in looking after younger girls with breast implants and injected lips... understandably, if I was in that age group and doing that job for living wage, I would probably try to make the most of it too...
The bottom line is that this idea that you can always rely on someone professional showing you the correct technique to make the most of the exercise and avoid injury is flawed. In most gyms I have been, staff is clueless and underqualified... which his not a surprise given how little they are paid. It's going to get worse with the new Government rules on immigration...
I have been down this road and am fortunate to have an extremely good gym with PT’s who are fully qualified. It is not what I would term a “commercial” type gym and has a number of top professional athletes among its users. As someone who has a weak back with mild age related osteoarthritis and had disc issues I wanted to strengthen my back to help, so I first of all had an assessment at the gym and was then put with the best trainer suited to me. After a number of sessions I am now able to work by myself either at home or the gym without concerns regarding safety. I can always check back with him if required.
https://betterbodygroup.co.uk/
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I would also say you're going to the wrong type of gym. A gym that's got fancy machines that tell you whether you're doing it right (which I doubt they do really, do they just measure the stroke?) but doesn't have enough weights for the barbels wouldn't get my subs.ugo.santalucia said:
Well, if it was a bar bell, you'd have to add the minimum amount, which would probably be an extra 10 kg... unless you want to go around and find the elusive 2.5kg discs...davebradswmb said:If I found 80 kg was a little too easy I would go up to 85 kg on my next visit, 95 kg is a 20% increase in weight, not such a narrow range. Would you call a 20% increase in your FTP small?
As for the FTP, I have on occasions pumped it up by 20% to make sense of a session that was otherwise too easy...
I guess I am fortunate that I am confident around free weights and I don't need a trainer. I was taught some of the basics when I was coaching canoe slalom, and the rest I have gleaned from youtube etc. I'm currently using Puregym, last year it was The Gym, both of whom operate on minimum overheads so there is no support unless you pay for it, but do have decent equipment, the only issue being that it is sometimes difficult to get on a particular piece of equipment at the busy times so you have to be a bit flexible with your routine. I'd say it is worth the investment in a decent personal trainer for a few months at a gym equipped with plenty of free weights and take it from there.0 -
I would agree with this completely. The gym I referred to never has a wait for equipment as they limit numbers accordingly, also there is a high client to PT ratio and it is twice the price of Puregym which my son uses. Unfortunately you only get what you pay for!davebradswmb said:
I would also say you're going to the wrong type of gym. A gym that's got fancy machines that tell you whether you're doing it right (which I doubt they do really, do they just measure the stroke?) but doesn't have enough weights for the barbels wouldn't get my subs.ugo.santalucia said:
Well, if it was a bar bell, you'd have to add the minimum amount, which would probably be an extra 10 kg... unless you want to go around and find the elusive 2.5kg discs...davebradswmb said:If I found 80 kg was a little too easy I would go up to 85 kg on my next visit, 95 kg is a 20% increase in weight, not such a narrow range. Would you call a 20% increase in your FTP small?
As for the FTP, I have on occasions pumped it up by 20% to make sense of a session that was otherwise too easy...
I guess I am fortunate that I am confident around free weights and I don't need a trainer. I was taught some of the basics when I was coaching canoe slalom, and the rest I have gleaned from youtube etc. I'm currently using Puregym, last year it was The Gym, both of whom operate on minimum overheads so there is no support unless you pay for it, but do have decent equipment, the only issue being that it is sometimes difficult to get on a particular piece of equipment at the busy times so you have to be a bit flexible with your routine. I'd say it is worth the investment in a decent personal trainer for a few months at a gym equipped with plenty of free weights and take it from there.
Now I am confident in myself lifting correctly I have invested in equipment for home, I don’t do any back squats and all lifting is with a trap bar.1 -
Also on free weights progression from a weight you feel confident with is not only via adding more weight - you can increase time under tension either with additional reps and/or sets or slow the speed at which you do the exercise and add in isometric holds (say one second at the top and bottom of a squat) etc.0
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Haven't read all the replies here, but worth mentioning that stronger legs will not give you more power. That's not how it works. Numerous previous threads on this topic have been over the science again and again. Ugo - if you are considering doing weights to get you up hills faster, then you have fundamentally misunderstood the issue, or you haven't bothered reading the other threads. Or both.
Assuming you're talking about the endurance pathway (sprint pathway routinely push weight for strength, but that's a different discussion). Endurance riders will push lighter weights for conditioning, while specific groups like the TP squad will push a bit of weight for conditioning, plus sometimes a bit of heavier stuff in order to help get out of the gate quicker and get on top of the gear in the first few pedal strokes. After that, it's all down to aerobic endurance, which has virtually nothing to do with leg strength.webboo said:British cycling/ Sky track teams have always done lots of it. So one might speculate that they are basing this on some research.
BrianT must be enjoying this...
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So does that mean do world class hand bikes put out as much power as WT bike riders?
After all if it's all aerobic and that doesn't change they should be able to supply oxygen and sugar to their arms at a comparable rate as WT riders do their legs.
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