leg gym work
So gym has to be…
I can’t do squats with heavy weights, as I am not keen to end up with a slipped disc or worse, so the big weights will have to be on the leg press machine.
What would be a single leg weight which is good to aim for in the next few weeks? I managed to do reps of 6-8 up to 80kg on a single leg this morning, that is about 120% of my body weight… I could probably do a bit more, not a lot more… would 120kg be a realistic target.. too little, too much?
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50% increase in a few weeks feels fairly optimistic- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Physio told me not to just go for the big lift but to raise the weight then slowly slowly let it back down, which I've since been doing for press, adductor, abductor etc.0
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Probably less, I am sure I can do 90 nowpangolin said:50% increase in a few weeks feels fairly optimistic
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Yeah the eccentric portion (lowering the weight) is arguably more important than lifting it.orraloon said:Physio told me not to just go for the big lift but to raise the weight then slowly slowly let it back down, which I've since been doing for press, adductor, abductor etc.
Focus on don't that well and having good form ugo, rather than a specific number.
Maybe do some squats with lower weight too, to strengthen your back and reduce the risk of a slipped disk. Again form is very important.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Interesting. Sounds like your legs are pretty strong already. Were those single leg efforts with free weights or on a leg press (I'm assuming the latter given your concerns)? Can your upper body brace sufficiently for all that strength to go into the pedals and not be wasted noodling around? From what I've read free weights (along with more targeted exercises) would probably help you with that as well.0
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modern machines guide you through the exercise… difficult to do it wrongpangolin said:
Yeah the eccentric portion (lowering the weight) is arguably more important than lifting it.orraloon said:Physio told me not to just go for the big lift but to raise the weight then slowly slowly let it back down, which I've since been doing for press, adductor, abductor etc.
Focus on don't that well and having good form ugo, rather than a specific number.
Maybe do some squats with lower weight too, to strengthen your back and reduce the risk of a slipped disk. Again form is very important.
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not sure about that… on lifting sites, I would be a novice for my weight… 😂mr.b-campag said:Interesting. Sounds like your legs are pretty strong already. Were those single leg efforts with free weights or on a leg press (I'm assuming the latter given your concerns)? Can your upper body brace sufficiently for all that strength to go into the pedals and not be wasted noodling around? From what I've read free weights (along with more targeted exercises) would probably help you with that as well.
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Fair enough - maybe you're just strong just compared to me then! But are you sure all the force you can create is going into the pedals? Proximal stiffness to create distal motion or somesuch (Menachem Brodie). I guess what I'm saying is you might need to do some upper body work too....0
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I can’t be sure… I don’t have a way to check… but yes, some upper body work is on order, just not exhausting stuff… a bit if triceps, shoulders and pectoralsmr.b-campag said:Fair enough - maybe you're just strong just compared to me then! But are you sure all the force you can create is going into the pedals? Proximal stiffness to create distal motion or somesuch (Menachem Brodie). I guess what I'm saying is you might need to do some upper body work too....
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Shoulder, pectoral, triceps.
Not sure they help in cycling.
In my case, the only cycling I care is climbing, so upper body strength...
Or am I getting something wrong?0 -
depends on the climbing… for work at threshold not, but I want to improve my results on the shorter hill climb races.. typically 1-3 minutes… so we are looking at 400 to 600+ Watts… and that’s where upper body strength helps…pep.fermi said:Shoulder, pectoral, triceps.
Not sure they help in cycling.
In my case, the only cycling I care is climbing, so upper body strength...
Or am I getting something wrong?
https://www.strava.com/activities/9339629165
left the forum March 20230 -
What about deadlifts. Not only leg strength but core and upper body. Lots of videos on correct technique.0
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I am a bit reluctant to do it with serious weights… 20-30kg Ok, but I really would prefer to avoid ending up on an NHS waiting list for back surgery.webboo said:What about deadlifts. Not only leg strength but core and upper body. Lots of videos on correct technique.
I understand machines are second best to weights, but I’ll take second best to avoid injury
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30k deadlifts will get you no where. You need to be heading to body weight and well above.
You are just as likely to injured on a machine when you are pushing it as you are just sat there and not having to engage the rest of your body.
However in regard to single leg press one of my mates who had on the national Squad as junior could do the full stack without looking like he was making any effort.
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If it were me I'd just build up to doing deadlifts and squats with lower weights and take your time. Get some coaching and/or look in to hexbars too.
Based on what I can do with a barbell it sound like you can single leg press more than me but I've done 1300w+ sprints on each of the 5 power meter I've owned. I've never trained it, that's just town sign stuff.
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I think the press is a lot easier… don’t think you can compare weightsjoeyhalloran said:If it were me I'd just build up to doing deadlifts and squats with lower weights and take your time. Get some coaching and/or look in to hexbars too.
Based on what I can do with a barbell it sound like you can single leg press more than me but I've done 1300w+ sprints on each of the 5 power meter I've owned. I've never trained it, that's just town sign stuff.
don’t really trust power numbers under 10 seconds… my best 10s is well under 800w
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I know I belong to the minority. Even people I generally trust tell me I'm wrong. But I still think the benefit of upper body strength in cycling in general, and in climbing in particular, is overrated.ugo.santalucia said:
depends on the climbing… for work at threshold not, but I want to improve my results on the shorter hill climb races.. typically 1-3 minutes… so we are looking at 400 to 600+ Watts… and that’s where upper body strength helps…pep.fermi said:Shoulder, pectoral, triceps.
Not sure they help in cycling.
In my case, the only cycling I care is climbing, so upper body strength...
Or am I getting something wrong?
https://www.strava.com/activities/9339629165
BTW, @ugo.santalucia very nice Bianchi in your Strava!
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I know there are various threads on here around FTP and gym work, with the consensus (and my view as well) being there is no correlation between leg strength work in the gym and increased FTP. Is there any evidence to link muscular strength to shorter power i.e. 5 seconds to 1 minute. I know a track sprinter would likely prioritise muscular strength but would be interesting to know what effect this has?
I have seen some studies which suggest that 'explosive' strength training has some effect on short efforts i.e. 5-10 seconds, but 'heavy' strength training (i.e. the type of gym work Ugo is planning), does not have the similar effect.
My guess would be that 1-3 minute efforts on the bike are going to be improved by more targeted cycling training, but would be interesting to see if your gym plan has the desired effect Ugo. Anecdotally, my 1 minute power has gone up this year, the only real difference is actually my volume has gone up also (have consistently done 5 rides per week and averaged 400km per week which has pushed me up to over 9w/kg for a minute). I suspect that most of us reach a plateau in terms of power numbers at certain combos of volume and intensity. The way to shift the numbers up to the next level (for an experienced fairly well trained cyclist) is to add volume and some specificity to training.
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Are there any studies confirming that?MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:I know there are various threads on here around FTP and gym work, with the consensus (and my view as well) being there is no correlation between leg strength work in the gym and increased FTP.
I can find many that conclude it does increase cycling performance.
edit:
here is one
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10378917/
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Doing upper body strength exercises will give you the edge in looking buff. So therefore every time you look in the mirror it will fuel up so you can kick your mates @rses going up hill.💪💪💪💪pep.fermi said:
I know I belong to the minority. Even people I generally trust tell me I'm wrong. But I still think the benefit of upper body strength in cycling in general, and in climbing in particular, is overrated.ugo.santalucia said:
depends on the climbing… for work at threshold not, but I want to improve my results on the shorter hill climb races.. typically 1-3 minutes… so we are looking at 400 to 600+ Watts… and that’s where upper body strength helps…pep.fermi said:Shoulder, pectoral, triceps.
Not sure they help in cycling.
In my case, the only cycling I care is climbing, so upper body strength...
Or am I getting something wrong?
https://www.strava.com/activities/9339629165
BTW, @ugo.santalucia very nice Bianchi in your Strava!0 -
You can do front loaded squats with weight, ie Zercher squat, cyclist squats and goblet squats, split squats. You could also safely use a trap bar for heavy deadlifts and RDL’s, it will move the weight more central to the body.
I have back issues from wear and tear (life) which has caused disc herniating and sequestration, so I started weight training to help with it, it’s perfectly safe if done correctly and will prevent not cause back issues.0 -
Interesting.webboo said:
Doing upper body strength exercises will give you the edge in looking buff. So therefore every time you look in the mirror it will fuel up so you can kick your mates @rses going up hill.💪💪💪💪
There is certainly some truth in this. Some say that muscular men have more success in attractive females, not because females prefer the muscular types, but because known you're muscular gives you extra self confidence, which in turn helps attracting the females.
BTW, in my teens I was obsessed with gym-work and looking muscular. Now I couldn't care less. I didn't like when I concluded that most of these men want to LOOK fit, and do not really care about BEING actually fit.
I look fit, but I'm not. If I could look fat, and yet be as fit as an elite runner or cyclist, I would immediately sign up for it.0 -
Most at the top end of my sport do gym work… I am also keen to try something different, because killing myself with increasingly hard intervals hasn’t so far made any real difference.
The only thing I have improved is knowledge of my strengths and weaknesses. For a number of reasons, I would like to target the 1-2 minute races, which are currently my weakness.
As a side issue, it might help getting a bit leaner…left the forum March 20230 -
Just to through one extra comment.....ugo.santalucia said:I am also keen to try something different, because killing myself with increasingly hard intervals hasn’t so far made any real difference.
Perhaps the reason it has not given you any additional benefit is because you have reached your plateau. So even the overall "optimum" training (which admittedly is hard to find) there's only so much that your fitness can improve. Just a thought.0 -
body fat could be improved… two years ago I had the same power ouput but was 2kg lighter.pep.fermi said:
Just to through one extra comment.....ugo.santalucia said:I am also keen to try something different, because killing myself with increasingly hard intervals hasn’t so far made any real difference.
Perhaps the reason it has not given you any additional benefit is because you have reached your plateau. So even the overall "optimum" training (which admittedly is hard to find) there's only so much that your fitness can improve. Just a thought.
If I can’t improve by means of intervals, maybe I can improve by other means… it is also something to focus on during the winter… there is only so much Zwift one can do… cycling outdoors this time of the year is more for sanity than actual training.
thinking that I cannot 8mprove is dangerous… I would lose motivation to enter any race than is more than cycling distance away
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That wasn’t supposed to be a serious point.pep.fermi said:
Interesting.webboo said:
Doing upper body strength exercises will give you the edge in looking buff. So therefore every time you look in the mirror it will fuel up so you can kick your mates @rses going up hill.💪💪💪💪
There is certainly some truth in this. Some say that muscular men have more success in attractive females, not because females prefer the muscular types, but because known you're muscular gives you extra self confidence, which in turn helps attracting the females.
BTW, in my teens I was obsessed with gym-work and looking muscular. Now I couldn't care less. I didn't like when I concluded that most of these men want to LOOK fit, and do not really care about BEING actually fit.
I look fit, but I'm not. If I could look fat, and yet be as fit as an elite runner or cyclist, I would immediately sign up for it.0 -
Stick it in a gear you can only just turn and smash it from virtual stand still.
Over and over. That'll sort you out. Untill your legs scream, then rest for longer than you think till you're fully recovered and repeat.
Can also add some overgeared days into your riding too to build a bit of that torque ability > lower back etc.0 -
@joeyhalloran
Unless I am misreading the abstract, that study seems to confirm my exact point. To quote below:
Conclusion: The present data suggest that increased leg strength does not improve cycle endurance performance in endurance-trained, female cyclists.
No correlation between leg strength and increased endurance.0 -
If I understand correctly Ugo is after power not endurance.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:@joeyhalloran
Unless I am misreading the abstract, that study seems to confirm my exact point. To quote below:
Conclusion: The present data suggest that increased leg strength does not improve cycle endurance performance in endurance-trained, female cyclists.
No correlation between leg strength and increased endurance.0 -
Yes, I know. My original post was making the point that there is no obvious correlation between leg strength and endurance power and whether the same applied to short power efforts 5 sec to 1 minute (as per Ugo's goal)? I don't know as I have not seen any studies that looked specifically at strength training and sprint power.0
