New Carbohydrates: "..one of the biggest reasons cyclists are producing such high power"
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True. But they're adults and responsible for their own actions. I doubt whether even USADA would give a reduced ban for "Some guy on Bike Radar assumed I was doping so I thought I'd do it anyway"!No_Ta_Doctor said:
Sure, but riders aren't isolated from the rest of the world, social media etc.wallace_and_gromit said:
I was referring to my cynicism as a fan. There's nothing I do that makes a pro want to dope!No_Ta_Doctor said:
Cynicism actively reinforced the culture of having to dope to win because "everyone else was doing it".wallace_and_gromit said:
It's easiest to be cynical. Then you only get surprised on the upside. And history tells you with cycling that if it sounds too good to be true then it is.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
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I'm not framing this as needing to prove anything. I'm just expressing my cynicism about the feasibility of a "food revolution" leading to materially increased performance levels after Lord knows how many years of the only proven explanation for significantly improved speeds uphill being PEDs and conveniently misplaced laptops. I'm not actually bothered tbh. I still watch. But with my eyebrow ready to raise at a moment's notice!rick_chasey said:
You are framing this as a "proof why they're cycling fast". That's not what this is about.wallace_and_gromit said:
Well my whole point is that it is in no way proven that the current speeds - e.g. Pog and Vingo beating EPO era climbing records in the Pyrenees; Rog, Vingo and Kuss logging the three fastest times ever on the Angliru this year - are due to a "food revolution". Historically, the only proven revolution has been EPO.rick_chasey said:You brought him up. I was talking about the food revolution in cycling.
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Pizza… always!bobmcstuff said:
I mean they might still be doping but that's still one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
Long chain starchy carbohydrates are a bit different to glucose/fructose mix... I thought pasta was a bit out of fashion now as it is quite starchy, rice is more popular.
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Definitely easier to stash a slice of pizza in a jersey pocket than a handful of spaghettiugo.santalucia said:
Pizza… always!bobmcstuff said:
I mean they might still be doping but that's still one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
Long chain starchy carbohydrates are a bit different to glucose/fructose mix... I thought pasta was a bit out of fashion now as it is quite starchy, rice is more popular.1 -
An old riding buddy swore by a can of rice pudding in a plastic bag in his jersey pocket.Munsford0 said:
Definitely easier to stash a slice of pizza in a jersey pocket than a handful of spaghettiugo.santalucia said:
Pizza… always!bobmcstuff said:
I mean they might still be doping but that's still one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
Long chain starchy carbohydrates are a bit different to glucose/fructose mix... I thought pasta was a bit out of fashion now as it is quite starchy, rice is more popular.
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The first ever Sportive I did a number of years back had boxes of cold, boiled new potatoes at the feed stops. This was the first and only time I've seen that. Now it actually makes a lot of sense. Rather that than sickly, sugary gak.
Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.
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I use them a lot for ultra distance fell running. After a while the sweet stuff becomes nauseating and the texture of the spuds works well when other things become difficult to swallow.photonic69 said:The first ever Sportive I did a number of years back had boxes of cold, boiled new potatoes at the feed stops. This was the first and only time I've seen that. Now it actually makes a lot of sense. Rather that than sickly, sugary gak.
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Not if you can’t stand cold potatoes. I once did a Mountainbike marathon in Switzerland and got passed by a guy with huge rucksack. I later caught him up when he was sat eating pasta out a massive Tupperware box. He came past again not long after.photonic69 said:The first ever Sportive I did a number of years back had boxes of cold, boiled new potatoes at the feed stops. This was the first and only time I've seen that. Now it actually makes a lot of sense. Rather that than sickly, sugary gak.
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Latest Cycling Podcast with Larry Warbasse includes some suggestions from him about why speeds have increased - worth a listen.0
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Something I’ll be carrying when I finally get around to doing an ultra.mrb123 said:
I use them a lot for ultra distance fell running. After a while the sweet stuff becomes nauseating and the texture of the spuds works well when other things become difficult to swallow.photonic69 said:The first ever Sportive I did a number of years back had boxes of cold, boiled new potatoes at the feed stops. This was the first and only time I've seen that. Now it actually makes a lot of sense. Rather that than sickly, sugary gak.
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There was someone who used to post on here (Sub 55) who used to help out at the Welsh 12 hour champs and he would hand up ice cream cones filled with rice pudding. It was a very welcome treat (and the tuna sandwich at HQ after finishing was the best thing I’ve ever eaten after 12 hours of sweet stuff).wallace_and_gromit said:
An old riding buddy swore by a can of rice pudding in a plastic bag in his jersey pocket.Munsford0 said:
Definitely easier to stash a slice of pizza in a jersey pocket than a handful of spaghettiugo.santalucia said:
Pizza… always!bobmcstuff said:
I mean they might still be doping but that's still one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
Long chain starchy carbohydrates are a bit different to glucose/fructose mix... I thought pasta was a bit out of fashion now as it is quite starchy, rice is more popular.0 -
Yeah, I had rice pudding at last two stops on Bob Graham round. Also heard of people having tinned peaches in the old days, presumably because they'd slip down easily!Pross said:
There was someone who used to post on here (Sub 55) who used to help out at the Welsh 12 hour champs and he would hand up ice cream cones filled with rice pudding. It was a very welcome treat (and the tuna sandwich at HQ after finishing was the best thing I’ve ever eaten after 12 hours of sweet stuff).wallace_and_gromit said:
An old riding buddy swore by a can of rice pudding in a plastic bag in his jersey pocket.Munsford0 said:
Definitely easier to stash a slice of pizza in a jersey pocket than a handful of spaghettiugo.santalucia said:
Pizza… always!bobmcstuff said:
I mean they might still be doping but that's still one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
Long chain starchy carbohydrates are a bit different to glucose/fructose mix... I thought pasta was a bit out of fashion now as it is quite starchy, rice is more popular.
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What format would you carry potatoes in if you were on a long run or ride?- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
I've got a sweet tooth so never had an issue doing 12+ days exclusively on haribo, energy drink and flapjack. It's a challenge in every day life but great for endurance challenge days.0
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There was a bloke on the fell running forum who swore by his method of making a batch of mash with lots of butter and cheese which he would put into a freezer bag with a corner cut off. He would then squirt it directly into his mouth like a savoury gel!Pross said:
Mashedpangolin said:What format would you carry potatoes in if you were on a long run or ride?
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I always ate well .... couldn't give you numbers ...the iso gels have been around for a fair while nowm.r.m. said:
The problems occur more when you take larger amounts. Did you take on 90-120g per hour for hours?mididoctors said:I never had problems with gels or bars tbh.... I am sure nutrition has improved.
Gels in the past usually required you to drink water immediately after as well. Nowadays they are all isotonic.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Mini boiled salad potatoes with honey glaze workpangolin said:What format would you carry potatoes in if you were on a long run or ride?
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm1 -
I see the carbohydrate revolution has not yet made it to the aged bowels of pro race contributors.0
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I think it's more that when you are doing a long distance event in non-racing conditions most normal people will want something other than gels. Even the pros regularly say how they like some real food in their musette to relieve the boredom / get a break from the sweetness of gels. If you do something like a 12 hour TT the thought of downing yet another gel 10 hours in is enough to make you feel sick even if the science of the product means it is more digestible. You also sometimes need to deal with hunger which taking gels doesn't really prevent. I kept forcing down a Maurten gel washed down with their stronger drink mix every 4.5 miles around a marathon last week and it did the job in keeping my energy levels but it was highly unpleasant.rick_chasey said:I see the carbohydrate revolution has not yet made it to the aged bowels of pro race contributors.
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Isn't the whole point that they've made ridiculous amounts of carbohydrates digestible without causing stomach and bowel problems?0
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Yes, from a scientific point of view. However, the point I'm making is that they are still incredibly sweet and just the thought of swallowing another sweet gel after several hours is enough to make you feel sick. I've had stomach issues with some 'traditional' gels and don't get those with the hydrogels (I've used Mountain Fuel as well as Maurten) but that psychological battle of forcing another down your neck is still a problem for me. I can't imagine what it is like when you have to do that every day through a Grand Tour, maybe you eventually get used to it I suppose.rick_chasey said:Isn't the whole point that they've made ridiculous amounts of carbohydrates digestible without causing stomach and bowel problems?
It would be nice to have savoury gels as an alternative but as they rely on a mix of sugars to deliver he fast, digestible energy that is highly unlikely to happen. I think a few companies have tried savoury gels but don't think there has been much success. The Maurten ones aren't flavoured but they are still very sweet and the 360 powder is really thick.0 -
Indeed - the Audax way seems to be to eat a full roast dinner at every stop based on my LEL experience.Pross said:
Yes, from a scientific point of view. However, the point I'm making is that they are still incredibly sweet and just the thought of swallowing another sweet gel after several hours is enough to make you feel sick. I've had stomach issues with some 'traditional' gels and don't get those with the hydrogels (I've used Mountain Fuel as well as Maurten) but that psychological battle of forcing another down your neck is still a problem for me. I can't imagine what it is like when you have to do that every day through a Grand Tour, maybe you eventually get used to it I suppose.rick_chasey said:Isn't the whole point that they've made ridiculous amounts of carbohydrates digestible without causing stomach and bowel problems?
It would be nice to have savoury gels as an alternative but as they rely on a mix of sugars to deliver he fast, digestible energy that is highly unlikely to happen. I think a few companies have tried savoury gels but don't think there has been much success. The Maurten ones aren't flavoured but they are still very sweet and the 360 powder is really thick.
Definitely added a lot of time to my event, I would have preferred more flapjacks and stuff, although a proper dinner was much needed at certain points - I had an absolute life saver feed at Barnard Castle - just don't need that many school dinners... not sure it would meet up to modern performance nutrition standards!
Also like you say if you're not riding full gas then having it in a format where the energy is not going to be immediately available isn't really a problem like it is for world tour riders.0 -
nutrition advances might explain how racers still have energy to spend after 5 hours, but does not explain how you can chuck out over 7W/kg for 20 minutes… that has nothing to do with the availability of glucose or else… that has to do with the ability to shift more oxygen around, typically the limiting factor in aerobic performance.left the forum March 20230
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There are very few pro races that are just 20 minutes though. Maybe exclusively the prologues of some grand tours? Even a 20 minute TT later on in a Grand Tour would be affected by fueling strategy over the weeks preceding it.ugo.santalucia said:nutrition advances might explain how racers still have energy to spend after 5 hours, but does not explain how you can chuck out over 7W/kg for 20 minutes… that has nothing to do with the availability of glucose or else… that has to do with the ability to shift more oxygen around, typically the limiting factor in aerobic performance.
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As far as I understand it they are using a lot more fructose in the formula as it requires very little processing before being absorbed into the bloodstream which is why there isn't too much of an increase in stress on the gut. My worry is that there is a strong link to increased fructose consumption and diabetes, athletes are already taking a lot of their energy intake from sugars and simple carbs and this could be creating new long-term problems.0
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Is that a realistic worry if you are only using them during fairly intense excercise?davebradswmb said:As far as I understand it they are using a lot more fructose in the formula as it requires very little processing before being absorbed into the bloodstream which is why there isn't too much of an increase in stress on the gut. My worry is that there is a strong link to increased fructose consumption and diabetes, athletes are already taking a lot of their energy intake from sugars and simple carbs and this could be creating new long-term problems.
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
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I wouldn't worry about diabetes, the reason the carbs are being ingested is that they're needed. Diabetes is caused by high sugar loads when they aren't needed. Exercise consumed carbs don't go via the same insulin pathway.3
