New Carbohydrates: "..one of the biggest reasons cyclists are producing such high power"
As per the title.
The article suggests that a revolution in designing carbohydrates to allow significantly more absorption per hour without causing stomach and bowel problems over the last 5 years has been one of the most significant contributors to the high level of performances we're seeing in races, especially in the long-duration efforts (where energy depletion matters more).
Apparently with then new food, they have almost doubled the amount of carbohydrates cyclists can digest per hour.
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Having watched the previously leaden-wheeled Lance dance up the hill to Sestriere nearly a quarter of century ago due to his high cadence, I remain sceptical.1
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But that was due to high cadence. No need to explain why the high cadence was possible.wallace_and_gromit said:Having watched the previously leaden-wheeled Lance dance up the hill to Sestriere nearly a quarter of century ago due to his high cadence, I remain sceptical.
"Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0 -
It makes sense, we know that high energy cycling can easily burn calories faster than they can be put in the system so it stands to reason that if you can increase fuel going in per hour you will last for longer at a higher effort.0
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Cadences have been high since however, so there was something in it, regardless.wallace_and_gromit said:Having watched the previously leaden-wheeled Lance dance up the hill to Sestriere nearly a quarter of century ago due to his high cadence, I remain sceptical.
If the riders are consuming more calories, they are consuming more calories, regardless.
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Yeah, it's basically and Glucose/Fructose mix. I was chatting to one of the researchers that worked with INEOS developing this formula. I think it is now being marketed by SIS as their BETA FUEL Gel.
https://www.scienceinsport.com/shop-sis/go-range/go-gels/beta-fuel-gel-packSometimes. Maybe. Possibly.
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Shame they gave it to Jumbo and carried on using the "slow" nutrition themselves!photonic69 said:I was chatting to one of the researchers that worked with INEOS developing this formula.
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I think subsequent developments showed that Lance's cadence was "effect" (of EPO) rather than "cause" (of winning the Tour having previously been out with the washing.)rick_chasey said:
Cadences have been high since however, so there was something in it, regardless.wallace_and_gromit said:Having watched the previously leaden-wheeled Lance dance up the hill to Sestriere nearly a quarter of century ago due to his high cadence, I remain sceptical.
Or just to be clear, the "cadence" story, along with the weight loss, greater pedalling efficiency and harder training etc. stories were just deflection from the EPO story!
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Sure. But since he did it the whole peloton now pedals at higher cadences, so there was an advantage.
Just because you're doping doesn't mean you're not also getting advantages elsewhere.0 -
Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0
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It's easiest if you just accept that Lance was a super-responder to EPO and because of his marketing value to the UCI, got a few free passes with test failures being overlooked.rick_chasey said:Sure. But since he did it the whole peloton now pedals at higher cadences, so there was an advantage.
Just because you're doping doesn't mean you're not also getting advantages elsewhere.0 -
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It's easiest to be cynical. Then you only get surprised on the upside. And history tells you with cycling that if it sounds too good to be true then it is.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
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wallace_and_gromit said:
Shame they gave it to Jumbo and carried on using the "slow" nutrition themselves!photonic69 said:I was chatting to one of the researchers that worked with INEOS developing this formula.
Yeah, I think INEOS got the tubes of 'mashed potato and honey' instead. TBF some rode like they had just had a three course meal.Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.
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I thought it was also interesting that they're training with all these carbs - seems a far cry from the Sky fasted rides.0
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Cynicism actively reinforced the culture of having to dope to win because "everyone else was doing it". If you believe that then you quit or join in. It's not actually possible to have clean cycling if the overwhelming attitude is cynicism, so it's actively harmful. Besides that, far too much of it just looks like wanting to pïss on other people's chips.wallace_and_gromit said:
It's easiest to be cynical. Then you only get surprised on the upside. And history tells you with cycling that if it sounds too good to be true then it is.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
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I heard that was public misdirection and they actually rarely trained that in preparation for any of the major racesrick_chasey said:I thought it was also interesting that they're training with all these carbs - seems a far cry from the Sky fasted rides.
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I used Maurten gels and the 360 powder for my most recent marathon and on the long runs training for it. I did seem to tolerate it a bit better but I'm not convinced it gave me a significant improvement in performance (the 360 powder makes a seriously thick and overly sweet drink by the way). The article just reads like an advert to me.1
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I never had problems with gels or bars tbh.... I am sure nutrition has improved."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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I was referring to my cynicism as a fan. There's nothing I do that makes a pro want to dope!No_Ta_Doctor said:
Cynicism actively reinforced the culture of having to dope to win because "everyone else was doing it".wallace_and_gromit said:
It's easiest to be cynical. Then you only get surprised on the upside. And history tells you with cycling that if it sounds too good to be true then it is.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
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Well my whole point is that it is in no way proven that the current speeds - e.g. Pog and Vingo beating EPO era climbing records in the Pyrenees; Rog, Vingo and Kuss logging the three fastest times ever on the Angliru this year - are due to a "food revolution". Historically, the only proven revolution has been EPO.rick_chasey said:You brought him up. I was talking about the food revolution in cycling.
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The problems occur more when you take larger amounts. Did you take on 90-120g per hour for hours?mididoctors said:I never had problems with gels or bars tbh.... I am sure nutrition has improved.
Gels in the past usually required you to drink water immediately after as well. Nowadays they are all isotonic.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
I still have nightmares about Torq Blackforest Gateau flapjacks after last year's Marmotte. It wasn't my best day on two wheels what with only just having recovered from Covid, a dodgy back and extreme temperatures, but I was plugging away up the Galibier, sticking as best I could to my nutrition schedule when I realised that I'd been chewing the first half of my Blackforest Gateau Torq thing for a km or so and hadn't swallowed any! I simply couldn't bring myself to do so, given how much my stomach was churning at the thought. The remainder of my progress was fuelled by gels and whatever nutrition can be derived from eating Humble Pie.mididoctors said:I never had problems with gels or bars tbh.... I am sure nutrition has improved.
I'm back on Torq stuff now, other than the Blackforest Gateau things. The thought of them still churns the stomach!1 -
You are framing this as a "proof why they're cycling fast". That's not what this is about.wallace_and_gromit said:
Well my whole point is that it is in no way proven that the current speeds - e.g. Pog and Vingo beating EPO era climbing records in the Pyrenees; Rog, Vingo and Kuss logging the three fastest times ever on the Angliru this year - are due to a "food revolution". Historically, the only proven revolution has been EPO.rick_chasey said:You brought him up. I was talking about the food revolution in cycling.
There *is* a food revolution and riders are genuinely consuming more calories than they used to. There is evidence, scientifically, that that reduces fatigue etc.
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On long fondos it's probably advisable to run entirely on liquid fuel or to switch to liquid in the course of the race. As fatigue sets in, your digestive tract can get overwhelmed with the amount of solid food you need to consume.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230
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Performance improvements are arguably linear over time. The oxygen vector doping era caused a sustained increase, but then fell back when it stopped being common place. But sports science, training methods, nutrition and so on are always evolving as we learn more about the human body and how it reacts to endurance efforts.
Speeds have always been increasing over time, with many factors influencing it, obvious ones like tarmac roads, aerodynamics and less obvious ones like clothing materials and global warming.
It's clear that in recent times something has seen another spike, and nutrition is the obvious answer, as the amount of carbs riders are consuming now per hour has almost doubled. That's clearly going to have a huge impact, and it's noticeable too, i.e. when was the last time you saw a rider bonk?0 -
Sure, but riders aren't isolated from the rest of the world, social media etc.wallace_and_gromit said:
I was referring to my cynicism as a fan. There's nothing I do that makes a pro want to dope!No_Ta_Doctor said:
Cynicism actively reinforced the culture of having to dope to win because "everyone else was doing it".wallace_and_gromit said:
It's easiest to be cynical. Then you only get surprised on the upside. And history tells you with cycling that if it sounds too good to be true then it is.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
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Pogacar in the tour.andyp said:Performance improvements are arguably linear over time. The oxygen vector doping era caused a sustained increase, but then fell back when it stopped being common place. But sports science, training methods, nutrition and so on are always evolving as we learn more about the human body and how it reacts to endurance efforts.
Speeds have always been increasing over time, with many factors influencing it, obvious ones like tarmac roads, aerodynamics and less obvious ones like clothing materials and global warming.
It's clear that in recent times something has seen another spike, and nutrition is the obvious answer, as the amount of carbs riders are consuming now per hour has almost doubled. That's clearly going to have a huge impact, and it's noticeable too, i.e. when was the last time you saw a rider bonk?1 -
There's an element of gut training in it as well (ie hence why it's usual advice not to try new nutrition on race day...), you can increase the amount you can take on while riding over time, like with anything else.
Old rule of thumb was 60g/hr (and you still see that on e.g., High5 gels, which I have in the cupboard) but apparently even amateurs are able to get much higher than this without adverse effects. I saw really high numbers up to like 140g/hr and more.
Obviously if you're not used to it and go and try to smash that much carbs from gels and bottles you're quite likely to just sh!t yourself...0 -
I mean they might still be doping but that's still one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.carbonclem said:Funny to see the doping obsessives dismiss this because pasta existed in the past ....
Long chain starchy carbohydrates are a bit different to glucose/fructose mix... I thought pasta was a bit out of fashion now as it is quite starchy, rice is more popular.0 -
I think he was clear afterwards that his lack of strength had nothing to do with fuelling properly, but that he was just empty. I think it's obvious that his preparation for the Tour was always likely to leave him short of endurance in the final week and Jumbo-Visma played him like a fiddle in ensuring he went toe to toe with Vingegaard in the first two week.TheBigBean said:
Pogacar in the tour.andyp said:Performance improvements are arguably linear over time. The oxygen vector doping era caused a sustained increase, but then fell back when it stopped being common place. But sports science, training methods, nutrition and so on are always evolving as we learn more about the human body and how it reacts to endurance efforts.
Speeds have always been increasing over time, with many factors influencing it, obvious ones like tarmac roads, aerodynamics and less obvious ones like clothing materials and global warming.
It's clear that in recent times something has seen another spike, and nutrition is the obvious answer, as the amount of carbs riders are consuming now per hour has almost doubled. That's clearly going to have a huge impact, and it's noticeable too, i.e. when was the last time you saw a rider bonk?0
