Today's discussion about the news

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Comments

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,551

    Using conscripts doesn't make the IDF morally righteous any more than it does for Putin.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,594

    Obviously. Not suggesting it does. I don't believe any military is very much interested in moral righteousness.

    My original objection was the labelling of all IDF personal - and by implication Israelis - as scum. If we're going to start applying personal responsibility for the morally reprehensible actions of their comrades and political masters to every individual who has completed military service I don't think anyone escapes.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,706

    "Netanyahu" has been used instead of "Israelis" intentionally.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,501
    edited April 3

    it's not mandatory for all, religious fundamentalists have a long standing exemption

    the far-right religious parties help keep netanyahu in power, funding them to sit back and let the less holy fight, kill and die for them, sweet deal

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/30/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-haredi-military-conscription.html?unlocked_article_code=1.hk0.OwMF.sa2Q-VvUeVd4&smid=url-share

    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,594
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,594

    Indeed. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that all IDF personnel are angels either. There appear to be plenty of examples of horrific behaviour as with any military. Those people are responsible for those crimes and their political masters are responsible for theirs.

    If we want to start nationalising criminal responsibility we'll all be on thin ice.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    edited April 3

    I think it is safe to say no collateral damage is too great to put the IDF off targeting something in Gaza.

    I sometimes think the US can't be too hard on Israel as it's not like they haven't killed a stunning amount of civilians over the years and decades in the wars the US fought and even started.

    The whole discourse over the war is so utterly hypocritical I struggle with any and all of the coverage.

  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    Those aid vehicles were hit with a precision strike, there was nothing collateral about it. If 'difficult operational conditions' mean they can't identify the correct target then they should be aborting the mission. It was either a monumental f*** up or deliberate. But lobbing ordnance into an area as crowded as Gaza is basically saying you don't really care about 'collateral damage' for sure.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517

    US adds more private-sector jobs than expected, as pay gains for job changers accelerate

    The US private sector added 184,000 jobs in March, the biggest monthly gain since July, in a sign of the labour market’s continued strength ahead of Friday’s official non-farm payrolls report.

    Honestly, US economy is just magical.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517

    Can someone tell me what it's like to work in a country where the economy is growing?

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,828

    This appears to be just like the Private Eye/Baddiel thing all over again, but now internal to the Tory Party. Alan Duncan strongly questions the influence Netanyahu has over the Tory Party policy, and is then put under investigation for "anti-Semitic tropes".

    "A former Foreign Office minister is being investigated by the Conservative Party after claiming there were pro-Israel “extremists” at the “very top of government”.

    Sir Alan Duncan, who stood down as a Tory MP at the 2019 election, was accused by Jewish groups of invoking “classic anti-Semitic tropes” by alleging that certain parliamentarians are “doing the bidding” of Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime Minister 

    Speaking to LBC, Sir Alan said there are “a lot of people at the top of our own politics” who “refuse to condemn” Israeli settlements and are therefore “not supporters of international law”.

    He added: “I think the time has come to flush out those extremists in our own parliamentary politics and around it, some of whom are at the very top of government, or have been, and they have never been called to account by journalists in the press to say well, do you agree with your own party’s policy? Do you condemn illegal settlements?”

    A Tory spokesman confirmed Sir Alan is under investigation by the party."

  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    Being expelled from the party is probably a good thing at this stage.

  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,501

    ft joins in the 404 day fun...

    https://www.ft.com/404

    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    Turns out that if enough countries put pressure on Israel they do eventually start to react. The West and US in particular need to pay attention and start pushing them harder

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,828

    I dunno, any chance that the IDF aren't telling the entire truth?

    In other news, Nancy Pelosi is urging Biden to stop arms sales to Israel. Given her experience and place in the Democrats, that feels vaguely significant.


  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    You'd think the same would apply with politicians, I guess they're more worried about the image to their electorate though especially the ones who rely on the holier than thou brigade.

  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,060
    edited April 10

    Post-9/11 to the London bombings in July 2005 wasn't a great period. There was a bomb in a Bali nightclub and on the Madrid underground in this period too. This period may well have extended further but I was in a daze of two small kids until around 2007 so only really remember key headlines.

    My eldest was born in late 2002 and her school year nationwide is notable "small" vs immediately before, which is attributed by some to folk in the immediate post-9/11 period ceasing family-making activities over concerns that the world was going up in flames.

    The GFC wasn't brilliant either, though at least there were no major attempts at blowing us up during this period.

    Prior to this, the build up to the first Gulf War was not notably a period of great expectations re world peace. Curiously, the war itself reduced rather than increased tensions once it became apparent that the Iraqis did not have the capacity to do anything meaningful to oil supplies, which was one of the concerns in the build up.

    And - one for Steveo here, maybe - if the "leftieb*llocks" spouted by my teachers in the early 80s was even half true, the world was only ever a few seconds away from a nuclear holocaust. Started by the Americans, of course.

    Which is a roundabout way of disagreeing with you that the world is in its worst state during you/our lifetimes. It's certainly not great at the moment, though!

  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    Hmm, not convinced. Yes, there were quite a few terrorist attacks in that time frame but it didn't feel like we were as close to large scale war. Maybe it felt worse if you were around large cities. Early 80s with the threat of nuclear war maybe but still being young at the time it wasn't something I really ever considered just something you saw on the news and then in programmes like Threads.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,706

    Early 80s did have the war with Argentina during which time conscription was a bit of a concern.

    That said, we’ve enjoyed a few generations with no real threat of war and have probably got a bit complacent.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • I guess it all comes down to personal perception. My main worry at the moment is graduate employment prospects and housing costs etc. for my student offspring, so I'm not currently that worried about nuclear holocausts!

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517

    You were talking in a different thread about your options later in life - my humble opinion is your (financial or equivalent) help at the moment of graduation is about as impactful as it can be in their lives.

  • I guess there's a "Likelihood and Impact" element to these considerations. Obviously, if the Russians nuke the UK, the impact will dwarf that of the downsides of inflated house prices and economic stagnation. But the likelihood of being nuked does feel very low. Whereas the likelihood of the Little W&Gs graduating into a subdued job market whilst facing high house prices and cyclically high interest rates feels all to plausible as an outcome. In the immediate post-9/11 phase, I didn't have offspring so could divert my attention to worrying about where 9/11 might lead, as that was the most immediate risk to me at that stage.

    All unrelated to whether it's fair etc. if Mrs W&G and I are able to provide financial assistance to the Little W&Gs.

  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,501

    post office ex-md getting told bluntly that he's a liar

    now desperately attempting to plead ignorance/incompetence

    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny