Today's discussion about the news
Comments
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And similarly the IDF probably see action such as October by Hamas as an ideal excuse to be as heavy handed as hey want in retaliation with little internal opposition and only token protest from their main allies. It's hard to get peace when neither side really wants it. Look what happened to Rabin when they got close.
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They were. You should remember this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing
Bottom line - N.I. peace worked because the British army did not attack the population of N.I.
Netanyahu could learn from that, if he wanted to.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
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Eh? You've lost me now.
It seems that you're determined not to see any parallels between the IRA and Hamas as terrorist organisations, in order to justify the claim that Hamas can be destroyed by violent means.
I'm trying to show that even someone who was the target of [the IRA's] terrorism knew that that can never work, and that you have to remove the reason why a proportion of a population will support or give refuge to terrorists. Only making them irrelevant will bring a lasting resolution. Otherwise you'll just keep on playing whack-a-mole.
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You don't think Bloody Sunday was useful for the IRA?
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The point I'm making is the tactics, which are a product of the region, are different enough that you can't assume what worked in NI will work in Israel/Palestine.
Similarly, unlike the Brits in NI, the IDF and the leadership of Israel seems hell bent on fully drivings Palestinians out of Gaza and will likely kill any left.
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Rick, are you trying to argue that the IRA is a better class of terrorist?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
And the point I'm making is that despite 'minor' tactical differences and the difference in degree of terror & violence, the overarching similarities mean that militarily obliterating a terrorist organisation that feeds off a population that feels oppressed/voiceless is unachievable, even if it were justifiable.
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You don't think catholics were encouraged to relocate south of the border?
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I wouldn't say better. It's a different context, right?
I don't remember the Brits flattening massive swathes of Belfast with gigantic gigantic bombs, nor do I have a recollection of the IRA running a semi military effort with a network of tunnels deliberately put under dense civilian populations and infrastucture like hospitals.
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The A stands for army. They hid in the civilian population. They didn't need a network of tunnels.
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Yes because the Brits didn't have a habbit of flying jets over and bombing the shit out of it.
It's a different context and requires a different solution.
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Not flying jets over and bombing the shit out of it?
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I think everyone is arguing the same point in different ways.
Palestine/Israel has escalated because some on both sides want it to. The UK didn't want N.I. to escalate.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Well, I think history suggests you're wrong. If you can find any widespread terrorist movements that have ceased to exist just by having the shit blown out of them rather than reducing/removing the reason for their existence, then I might take your assertion more seriously.
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I still think there is a correlation between Blair shovelling everybody into university and the growing popularity of gaap years explains the 20-24 line
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I agree, although you could argue Al-Qaeda has, but I think it is different because their cause wasn't clear.
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I think you come into Liverpool Street. Literally over the road is a church that had to be rebuilt after they blew it up.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I really feel Hamas tactics make this a different challenge, not least as there clearly are not more moderates with legitimacy and some levers of power to broke stuff there.
I see the parallels but there are clear differences that make this a different challenge.
Nor do I buy the augment Hamas are just terrorists. They work differently.
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Yes, clearly that was a more effective and less bloody strategy but the end goal - removal of a terrorist organisation - was similar.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Not now, no.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
A deal could be brokered with Hamas. They're literally discussing one right now.
Your problem is that you have bought into Israeli propaganda that Hamas are somehow different.
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I don't think collecting martyrs is distinct to Hamas. Of course the indiscriminate force of the IDF plays into Hamas hands, but Hamas aren't orchestrating the IDF operations.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The IRA were also part of the fabric of Catholic communities, meting out vigilante kneecappings and whatnot, and maintaining a degree of support by acting as a home-bred 'justice' system.
Sure, the degree is different, but the parallels are there if you look, and the solution is going to look similar, if it is to last.
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tell that to the civilians they maimed and killed
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
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Did they know who was going to be passing by a bomb in a crowded shopping street?
How many catholics were in the docklands bombing? Yes, they were indiscriminate.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Look I'll say it once more and then we can agree to disagree.
Indiscriminate is not the same as goading the enemy into killing your own civilian population as a main tactic.
As per this NATO document from 10 years ago: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
Hamas even have designs to have actual artillery and mortars: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/media/3416
They are closer to an actual military force and not a paramilitary force.
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No-one is trying to diminish the brutality of Hamas, but the differences are in degree, not intent. Your 'solution' would solve nothing, as Hamas or something like it will always survive if the causes have not been addressed.
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