Shimano recalling a censored ton of DA and Ultegra cranksets

daniel_b

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/shimano-cranks-recall?fbclid=IwAR1dInGqhLxgQ7oq0-sNrtizmKjOg0h3IJbt1iYLzdbmdFSrPshXYm81EzY

Only in the US so far.

Would seem you only get a new 12spd crankset with 11spd chainrings IF your crankset shows signs of delaminating.

I have two bikes that could be in this category, one with loads of miles, one with more modest mileage.

pblakeney

Ha!
I remember being told this was scaremongering bulls!t.

First.Aspect

Doesn't help all the people who have had chainsets delamination over the last
10+ years and paid to replace them. Nor does it make up for a decade of denial.

joeyhalloran

Anyone know why now? What's changed when this has been an issue for so long?

redvision

They're supposed to be making an announcement for owners in European countries in the coming hours/days.

I was just about to sell my dura ace di2 groupset but guess I will need to hold back and wait until the chainset has gone through the recall checks first.

Can't understand why they've announced this recall in the states and canada before the rest of the world. All the parts are made by shimano in the same factory aren't they? So must be something to do with lawsuits, but imagine if someone in a non US or Canadian country has an incident with their crankset before they announce the recall! That would be one hell of a lawsuit.

daniel_b

Also looks like they were investigating potential causes in 2021, so that has probably concluded earlier this year, then through legal and finance to decide what course of action.

This part (if true) concern s me.

"The recall also states that if your crankset passes the inspection and has no signs of delamination, then you can "continue to enjoy your ride. Have your bike tuned up and inspected regularly, ask your dealer for recommendations based on your riding habits. Pay attention to changes in the sound and feel of how your bike is riding."

I'm not going to be p1ssing off my lbs asking them to inspect my cranksets 2 or 3 times a year.

I checked the 2 bikes, one has covered 5k, the other one with the dearer crankset, 2k.

troy45

Mine failed and it’s not on the list of affected production codes so I wouldn’t entirely trust the list they’ve stated. RG code on mine, list goes up to RF from what I’ve seen.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I've got a defective crank (and I ain't talkin' Shimano - ba dum tss! 🥁).

Well, not actually defective as yet but on the at risk list. TBH, it has done 30,000km and no signs of catastrophic failure so I will just give it a check from time to time.

I have pointed out on other warranty threads that unfortunately warranties are worthless unless the manufacturer chooses to honour them. I think many people are under the misapprehension it is a cast iron guarantee if something goes wrong.

As the Shimano debacle shows, companies will deny and deny, as admitting to a single claim then opens the floodgates. In this instance it has backfired spectacularly and perhaps done a fair bit of reputational damage.

As a company they really have been daft, it was obvious that the sheer volume of the exact same defect was a manufacturing fault, they should have accepted this years back.

shirley_basso

Mine broke and I just binned it as it was old, bought second hand and I had already whinged to the vendor about other issues which needed fixing so I chalked it up to bad luck and bought a cheap second hand one on ebay for £60.

Now I am worried that one is going to be screwed, too.

First.Aspect

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I've got a defective crank (and I ain't talkin' Shimano - ba dum tss! 🥁).

Well, not actually defective as yet but on the at risk list. TBH, it has done 30,000km and no signs of catastrophic failure so I will just give it a check from time to time.

I have pointed out on other warranty threads that unfortunately warranties are worthless unless the manufacturer chooses to honour them. I think many people are under the misapprehension it is a cast iron guarantee if something goes wrong.

As the Shimano debacle shows, companies will deny and deny, as admitting to a single claim then opens the floodgates. In this instance it has backfired spectacularly and perhaps done a fair bit of reputational damage.

As a company they really have been daft, it was obvious that the sheer volume of the exact same defect was a manufacturing fault, they should have accepted this years back.

The particular issue with these cranks is clearly a design flaw. I've had two fail. One came with a groupset, the other was it's ebay replacement. They each lasted a ouple of winters. The second set was the last Shimano crank I'll ever own.

Cranks aren't disposable items, and even in your case 30000 km is, what, 5 years? You really think that's okay? Do you know of any other crank design that lasts only that long?

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I totally agree it is a design and manufacturing defect, no dispute there.

I was just referencing my own crank and the fact that, as Dan B pointed out, Shimano are only changing cranks with signs of delamination at present. Mine isn't, so not much I can do at the moment.

I definitely don't think cranks are a disposable item or that the amount of mileage I have on mine would be an acceptable volume of miles for a failure. I think Shimano should replace every crank at risk, regardless of whether it is showing signs of any defect. Unfortunately they aren't going to take any preemptive measure, just reactive and in cases of fault where they have no choice.

Munsford0

They clearly went down the route of hollow / bonded construction in pursuit of weight reduction. Ultegra and Dura Ace chainsets are a fair bit lighter than my solid forged 105. Which is fair enough; plenty of cars and aircraft are glued together. Only they clearly didn't always get this quite right.

First.Aspect

Yes. This sort of thing does happen from time to time, but Shimano have behaved very badly by not doing a mea culpa years ago. My second one went way back in 2018 and it was a well known issue even before that.

Reminds me a bit about the car industry, this. We had a steering rack failure on a car once. That's bad, right? The motor just falling off into the engine bay? Kind of leaves you not being able to steer?

We got an estimate to fix north of £5k.

Looked it up, found it was a recall in the US and Canada, but not here. Here, they decided only to replace under warranty, and out of good will for anyone else who figured out it was a defect and had the gumption to demand it for free.

No, we don't drive that make any more.

daniel_b

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Shimano are only changing cranks with signs of delamination at present.

So some bloke in the US I think, on the FB post where I spotted this, claims he has spoken to his local shimano dealer, and they told him Shimano will replace all cranks that are on their list of affected cranksets.

Clearly that contradicts the statement AND is in the US (If true of course), so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Cheers @daniel_b . Interesting to hear, now Shimano have admitted to the fault it would make sense, from a damage limitation/PR perspective, for them to offer a swap to all affected customers.

Wait and see I guess.

webboo

My DA chainset is one of the ones listed. Bike was bought in 2016 but first ride spring 2017 it’s done a fair few miles but only been ridden in summer. If it was to break now and there wasn’t a recall, I guess they would just say it’s wear and tear. Also if it’s checked and there’s no obvious sign of it delaminating, would you gamble on a 7 year old chainset.
Given they’ve now admitted there is a fault one crash because of a delaminating chainset and the resulting compensation plus legal fees would have payed for a lot of chainsets.

daniel_b

Agreed, will post on here if I hear anything, especially after speaking to my LBS.

Still need to check my bikes - will try and do so this weekend.

A part of me will be a bit annoyed though if my beautiful 9100 Foil RC ends up with a non matching 9200 crankset - it's also running DA 53/36.
The other bike, 6800, is a 52/36 but is running a 36 absolute black inner - hope that would swap across ok.

For ease, and those who don't want to click the link, this is the apparently affected cranks:

The affected models were produced pre-July 2019 and have the following two letter production code on backside of the crank arm, just next to where the pedals are attached: KF, KG, KH, KI, KJ, KK, KL, LA, LB, LC, LD, LE, LF, LG, LH, LI, LJ, LK, LL, MA, MB, MC, MD, ME, MF, MG, MH, MI, MJ, MK, ML, NA, NB, NC, ND, NE, NF, NG, NH, NI, NJ, NK, NL, OA, OB, OC, OD, OE, OF, OG, OH, OI, OJ, OK, OL, PA, PB, PC, PD, PE, PF, PG, PH, PI, PJ, PK, PL, QA, QB, QC, QD, QE, QF, QG, QH, QI, QJ, QK, QL, RA, RB, RC, RD, RE, and RF.

webboo

Mines the OI. At first I thought it wasn’t on the list as I read it as 01.

twotoebenny

I’ve got two DA 9000, just checked on and have MC, other bike is in storage but will check that asap. Bit disconcerting now knowing they’ve admitted possible issues with cranksets!

daniel_b

Update, means it's in Europe now too.

This article backs up the fact they are not planning on replacing them all, going to the trouble of providing bike shops with a guide on how to check.

Even power meter cranks will be checked and kind of re-imbursed if also found faulty.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/shimano-extends-hollowtech-crankset-inspection-programme-to-europe-amid-injury-fears?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR0gYGpGUnr6FLgCYjYAM-vZr15Mz63eOkJlIKdq3wio6jdtag2_73CsRDA

"Shimano will replace any cranksets that fail the inspection process free of charge."

The bike part company has developed an inspection process to be used by Shimano dealers, and will provide "clear instructions and tutorials" to bike shops in order to address the issue

Shimano said: "The dealer will inspect the crankset for signs of bonding separation or delamination. Consumers whose cranksets show signs of bonding separation or delamination during the inspection will be provided a free replacement crankset from Shimano that the dealer will professionally install.

"If your crankset needs replacement following the inspection, please do not use it. If a replacement crankset is temporarily unavailable, Shimano will notify you through your dealer when the replacement is ready."

DeVlaeminck

Really poor if they expect us to keep riding them until they start to fail.

plymouthsteve

The PPI/Mis sold a diesel car brigade will be sponsoring this forum before Christmas.
Probably a more valid cause though.

katani

Their US website says it is a voluntary recall with a replacement only to be provided following a confirmed signs of failure at an inspection.
So exactly the same as for Europe.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/customer-services/corrective-actions/11-speed-hollowtech-ii-crankset-recall-notice.html

Mine are SF, UJ, and PH, the last one being on the list. I bought that one new in 2019 and it's been on that bike since then and done the most miles too, some 20-25k miles including winter riding. Solid so far and I have been inspecting all three pretty much weekly after watching Hambini's video after his DA had failed.

All of the failures I have heard about were always preceded by creaking/clicking noise coming from the crank set for a while which the owners ignored / looked elsewhere for the cause while keep riding the bikes until the disbonding finally occured.

First.Aspect

katani said:

Their US website says it is a voluntary recall with a replacement only to be provided following a confirmed signs of failure at an inspection.
So exactly the same as for Europe.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/customer-services/corrective-actions/11-speed-hollowtech-ii-crankset-recall-notice.html

Mine are SF, UJ, and PH, the last one being on the list. I bought that one new in 2019 and it's been on that bike since then and done the most miles too, some 20-25k miles including winter riding. Solid so far and I have been inspecting all three pretty much weekly after watching Hambini's video after his DA had failed.

All of the failures I have heard about were always preceded by creaking/clicking noise coming from the crank set for a while which the owners ignored.

You make it sound like had they not ignored them, there may have been a different outcome. What were they supposed to do exactly? Take it to Shimano for a repair?

The failures aren't dangerous, they are costly and inconvenient to replace.

First signs are misalignment of the outer fafe of crank and chain rings, btw.

pblakeney

First.Aspect said:

katani said:

Their US website says it is a voluntary recall with a replacement only to be provided following a confirmed signs of failure at an inspection.
So exactly the same as for Europe.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/customer-services/corrective-actions/11-speed-hollowtech-ii-crankset-recall-notice.html

Mine are SF, UJ, and PH, the last one being on the list. I bought that one new in 2019 and it's been on that bike since then and done the most miles too, some 20-25k miles including winter riding. Solid so far and I have been inspecting all three pretty much weekly after watching Hambini's video after his DA had failed.

All of the failures I have heard about were always preceded by creaking/clicking noise coming from the crank set for a while which the owners ignored.

You make it sound like had they not ignored them, there may have been a different outcome. What were they supposed to do exactly? Take it to Shimano for a repair?

The failures aren't dangerous, they are costly and inconvenient to replace.

First signs are misalignment of the outer fafe of crank and chain rings, btw.

Not entirely true. There have been reports of failure under heavy load and resulting crashes. One of my friends for example, which is what highlighted the issue to me.

First.Aspect

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

katani said:

Their US website says it is a voluntary recall with a replacement only to be provided following a confirmed signs of failure at an inspection.
So exactly the same as for Europe.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/customer-services/corrective-actions/11-speed-hollowtech-ii-crankset-recall-notice.html

Mine are SF, UJ, and PH, the last one being on the list. I bought that one new in 2019 and it's been on that bike since then and done the most miles too, some 20-25k miles including winter riding. Solid so far and I have been inspecting all three pretty much weekly after watching Hambini's video after his DA had failed.

All of the failures I have heard about were always preceded by creaking/clicking noise coming from the crank set for a while which the owners ignored.

You make it sound like had they not ignored them, there may have been a different outcome. What were they supposed to do exactly? Take it to Shimano for a repair?

The failures aren't dangerous, they are costly and inconvenient to replace.

First signs are misalignment of the outer fafe of crank and chain rings, btw.

Not entirely true. There have been reports of failure under heavy load and resulting crashes. One of my friends for example, which is what highlighted the issue to me.

Agree, but for it not to be a blanket recall suggests that this is a very small proportion of the <1%.

Taking that steering rack analogy, JLR judged that it was most likely to fail at high load, so during parking maneuvers, and that the non-zero risk of a failure at higher speed was low enough to justify merely a massive headache for their customers and accidents for some.

This Shimano story has a while to run though. The 1% figure is based on the number of reports. Seeing as customers have been told to talk to the hand for most of that period, I suspect the proportion of failures is far higher.

katani

In the US they have had 4519 confirmed failures for 760k units, so 0.5%.
I am assuming there must have been more failures and those were only the ones where the owner had bought the cranks new and thus was able to go back to the retailer to make a warranty claim and that number doesn't include those with cranks purchased second hand that failed.
Even if the total number is twice bigger, it is still only 1% of the total number produced, so a small minority. What have they been doing different to the majority whose haven't failed? And clearly Shimano don't expect the remaining cranks to fail in the future, as they would simply recall all cranks owned by the original owners and supply them with a new one unconditionally. It is really quite bizarre.

First.Aspect

katani said:

In the US they have had 4519 confirmed failures for 760k units, so 0.5%.
I am assuming there must have been more failures and those were only the ones where the owner had bought the cranks new and thus was able to go back to the retailer to make a warranty claim and that number doesn't include those with cranks purchased second hand that failed.
Even if the total number is twice bigger, it is still only 1% of the total number produced, so a small minority. What have they been doing different to the majority whose haven't failed? And clearly Shimano don't expect the remaining cranks to fail in the future, as they would simply recall all cranks owned by the original owners and supply them with a new one unconditionally. It is really quite bizarre.

The calculation is purely financial. Reputational impact on sales, vs. cost of the various recall options.

Question - is 0.6% high? Would 2% be high?

Is this a "most schools not affected" situation or is this, for the type of equipment, very low as Shimano suggest?

webboo

First.Aspect said:

katani said:

Their US website says it is a voluntary recall with a replacement only to be provided following a confirmed signs of failure at an inspection.
So exactly the same as for Europe.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/customer-services/corrective-actions/11-speed-hollowtech-ii-crankset-recall-notice.html

Mine are SF, UJ, and PH, the last one being on the list. I bought that one new in 2019 and it's been on that bike since then and done the most miles too, some 20-25k miles including winter riding. Solid so far and I have been inspecting all three pretty much weekly after watching Hambini's video after his DA had failed.

All of the failures I have heard about were always preceded by creaking/clicking noise coming from the crank set for a while which the owners ignored.

You make it sound like had they not ignored them, there may have been a different outcome. What were they supposed to do exactly? Take it to Shimano for a repair?

The failures aren't dangerous, they are costly and inconvenient to replace.

First signs are misalignment of the outer fafe of crank and chain rings, btw.

Could you explain the misalignment a bit more please.

First.Aspect

webboo said:

First.Aspect said:

katani said:

Their US website says it is a voluntary recall with a replacement only to be provided following a confirmed signs of failure at an inspection.
So exactly the same as for Europe.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/customer-services/corrective-actions/11-speed-hollowtech-ii-crankset-recall-notice.html

Mine are SF, UJ, and PH, the last one being on the list. I bought that one new in 2019 and it's been on that bike since then and done the most miles too, some 20-25k miles including winter riding. Solid so far and I have been inspecting all three pretty much weekly after watching Hambini's video after his DA had failed.

All of the failures I have heard about were always preceded by creaking/clicking noise coming from the crank set for a while which the owners ignored.

You make it sound like had they not ignored them, there may have been a different outcome. What were they supposed to do exactly? Take it to Shimano for a repair?

The failures aren't dangerous, they are costly and inconvenient to replace.

First signs are misalignment of the outer fafe of crank and chain rings, btw.

Could you explain the misalignment a bit more please.

Sure, with both of mine, the first thing I saw was a small lip between the outer chainring and the crank, where the casing of the crank is just starting to lift away furthest from the pedal. i.e. the early stages of what you can see here:



You might get some creaking first, or potentially the pedal stroke will get eccentric.

katani

First.Aspect said:

katani said:

Their US website says it is a voluntary recall with a replacement only to be provided following a confirmed signs of failure at an inspection.
So exactly the same as for Europe.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/customer-services/corrective-actions/11-speed-hollowtech-ii-crankset-recall-notice.html

Mine are SF, UJ, and PH, the last one being on the list. I bought that one new in 2019 and it's been on that bike since then and done the most miles too, some 20-25k miles including winter riding. Solid so far and I have been inspecting all three pretty much weekly after watching Hambini's video after his DA had failed.

All of the failures I have heard about were always preceded by creaking/clicking noise coming from the crank set for a while which the owners ignored.

You make it sound like had they not ignored them, there may have been a different outcome. What were they supposed to do exactly? Take it to Shimano for a repair?

The failures aren't dangerous, they are costly and inconvenient to replace.

First signs are misalignment of the outer fafe of crank and chain rings, btw.

Avoiding crashing or/and getting injured could have been a different outcome in some cases.
I mean, that Bike Radar guy, who was ignoring creaking noises coming from his crank set area for weeks, and even when he could already feel the crank was breaking apart still kept dropping torque bombs on it... Also unsure what he was supposed to do?

If I saw what's in your photograph above, I would replace that crank asap. If in the middle of a ride, I am walking home. Even without seeing it or hearing creaks you would know there was something wrong as the shifting to the big ring would be affected / the chain wouldn't be meshing properly with the teeth on that ring. If it was still within the warranty period, I am returning the crank for a replacement / refund. If I got told it was my fault, I would demand to have it explained how as there is nothing really one can neglect to do on a crank set which would result in that sort of failure, and if I was getting simply ignored, I would try to raise it with the TS. But I haven't had a need to deal with them for more than a decade so don't know how they handle consumer complaints nowadays.
But when I did have an issue with one retailer in 2010, TS actually represented me and the seller couldn't simply ignore them as TS would have taken a legal action against them on my behalf if they had. Free of charge. No idea if they still offer this level of help nowadays.

If I see / feel / hear anything unusual on one of my bikes, it doesn't get ridden on until I find out the cause and it gets fixed.