Race safety
Comments
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Some good ideas bouncing around but it's all speculative.No_Ta_Doctor said:I think it would probably be better to have some general warnings, rather than specific gradings - otherwise we're going to end up with a race organiser accused of not grading a turn hard enough...
I would like to see some body going out and finding out what it is we can find out. There is national laboratories for traffic accents . How much is put into cycle crashes independent of cars I don't know but manufacturers are mandated to get there vehicles tested to certain standards ..I don't see why the UCI and bike manufacturers shouldn't be asked / mandated by nations / the EU to study its own sport from all perspectives ...body health to race mechanics and accidents .
How much is the UCI spending now on this?
I don't what to see some new rule appearing 2 months later after they think about the optics of it all from a commercial pov . I rather we didn't see anything but the set up of a ongoing agency/study that took over a year to make changes
The UCI did set up a external data collection body for accidents in 2021 . Operates a 5 year window .
https://www.uci.org/pressrelease/road-cycling-the-uci-announces-the-introduction-of-numerous-measures-to-improve-rider-safety-as-of-2021/j8yutC3V8hh8hVj8PiBka
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I understood that Sheffield was with the Bardet group and that Mäder was farther back, although I don't know how far behind, I've heard suggested between 3 and 5 mins behind Bardet. Apparently there were a good half-a-dozen riders about that far behind, Pidcock being one, but spread out, so perhaps 30-40 secs between each.mididoctors said:Both mader and Sheffield crashed same place ..did they collide or follow one another off the road or just make similar errors at the same place .at different times... Some people say they were not together on the climb
As the police are investigating the crashes, I suppose eventually some of those riders may be asked whether they saw the accident.
Photo shows where the two riders went off the road, the red markings presumably made by the police.
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Dorset_Boy said:
On a descent, some kind of markings on the road to indication a tightening corner might be an idea.?
No_Ta_Doctor said:I think it would probably be better to have some general warnings, rather than specific gradings.
Like several have said above, what can easily improve road safety (for all road users, not just professional cyclists in races) is ensuring obligatory simple measures to indicate where danger lies have been correctly implemented.mididoctors said:Identifying the potential danger and Warning signage MAY have been enough to prevent this .
Criteria exists for reflector posts along the side of a road and for road-edge marking.
On bends of less than 200 m radius, in Germany at least 5 reflector posts (in France at least 4 posts) are required at the side of the road around the bend, at distances of max 25 m apart, while on much tighter bends, the number of posts has to be increased above the minimum.
Additionally, both on entering and when passing through the bend, irrespective of the total number of posts around the bend, at least 4 or 5 should always be visible to the driver/cyclist (because the post alignment will indicate how severely the road curves).
Swiss criteria is likely to be similar. And if it is, the fatal bend on the Albula didn't match criteria, this although the long straight before the fatal bend (over 500 m with only a slight realignment halfway along) might tempt high speeds ('people going faster than their capabilities' as pblakeney phrased it), making it essential to highlight the danger of the bend ahead.
Thus the local Swiss road authorities bear some responsibility.
The bend on the Albula has only 4 reflector posts, despite being a relatively sharp curve (radius ~ 60 m, not extremely tight, but without warnings possibly deceptive). At no point on entering the bend are 4 or 5 posts visible, only 3 posts (and that at best - one post, no.1, appears to be a stone one, pretty low in height, so could be overseen or hidden by high grass).
One can only see more than 3 posts when first halfway round the bend - which may be too late if one has misjudged.
Also the gap between posts 3 and 4 exceedsthe max 25 m; it is about 35 m.
I would say 6 to 8 full-height posts should have been around that bend, not just 4.
Picture for location of posts (the two riders went off the road at post 4).
Re road edge marking, a white line along the road edge is standard for roads on the Continent with measurable traffic and outside of built-up areas. It can both indicate how the road ahead curves, and also delineate asphalt from any narrow stoney shoulder on the side of a road.
I don't know if the traffic over the Albula warrants road-edge marking (exact requirements are based on average daily traffic volume) but nearly all well-known passes in Switzerland have road-edge marking along their whole length. However, the Albula only does for the first half of the ascent from Bergün (up until through the gorge), and at the very bottom of the descent into La Punt.
There was no marking where the crashes happened and there was a 50 cm wide stoney shoulder there.
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The guy responsible for planning the security along the T d Suisse route said he had been involved in such planning for over 25 years, the Albula had been included several times and he didn't feel it was intrinsically dangerous. However I suspect he is looking only at road furniture and the condition of the road surface, and not at these basic safety/warning features.
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I'm not sure that if descending at 80+ kmh you are going to be counting how many reflective posts you can see at the side of the road on a corner!1
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Dorset_Boy said:
I'm not sure that if descending at 80+ kmh you are going to be counting how many reflective posts you can see at the side of the road on a corner!
You might pick up on density
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
It’s fast but it’s not that fast. We all go faster on the motorway.Dorset_Boy said:I'm not sure that if descending at 80+ kmh you are going to be counting how many reflective posts you can see at the side of the road on a corner!
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Driving on a motorway is hardly comparable with a twisty mountain descent on a bike!rick_chasey said:
It’s fast but it’s not that fast. We all go faster on the motorway.Dorset_Boy said:I'm not sure that if descending at 80+ kmh you are going to be counting how many reflective posts you can see at the side of the road on a corner!
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Not as clearly as a marking on the road in say yellow or pink!mididoctors said:Dorset_Boy said:I'm not sure that if descending at 80+ kmh you are going to be counting how many reflective posts you can see at the side of the road on a corner!
You might pick up on density0 -
I tend to use the lines on the road and/or the road edges as a guide. If they are closing then so is the corner, widening then so is the corner.Dorset_Boy said:I'm not sure that if descending at 80+ kmh you are going to be counting how many reflective posts you can see at the side of the road on a corner!
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Your probably rightDorset_Boy said:
Not as clearly as a marking on the road in say yellow or pink!mididoctors said:Dorset_Boy said:I'm not sure that if descending at 80+ kmh you are going to be counting how many reflective posts you can see at the side of the road on a corner!
You might pick up on density"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
(Most comments have been on the road markings, but to me they are less significant than the posts)mididoctors said:
You might pick up on densityDorset_Boy said:I'm not sure that if descending at 80+ kmh you are going to be counting how many reflective posts you can see at the side of the road on a corner!
You, mididoctors, seem to be the only one grasping the argument/reason behind the criteria, and why its implementation is important. Yes, simply said, it's density.
Those who say one might or might not be counting posts, clearly have no idea of automatic cognitive sense (or of its importance and how often it is necessary), and those who speak of motorway speeds seemingly have no idea of bend radii on normal roads (and possible safe speeds).
I'm a bit surprised no one decided to join me in saying the local roadway authorities were deficient in not implementing regulations, and thus are culpable. I think they should be involved/found partly-responsible in the police report.
Is there a fear on the Forum of being so definite? If so, when one of you this summer goes off the edge on the Fluela, another pass with similar deficiencies, well hard luck if later you try to claim the canton didn't implement the regulations there.
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It's hard to know what affect posts or lack of had on their perception of the corner. The only thing I do consciously is look at the vanishing point - I'd probably click those sharp bend signs too. It's certainly something to be considered in any enquiry.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1 -
We mainly live in the UK, poor quality highway maintenance is an expectation. Most of us would settle for not having potholes on our motorways (I’m a highway engineer albeit not for a road authority and also do some road safety work).jimmyjams said:
(Most comments have been on the road markings, but to me they are less significant than the posts)mididoctors said:
You might pick up on densityDorset_Boy said:I'm not sure that if descending at 80+ kmh you are going to be counting how many reflective posts you can see at the side of the road on a corner!
You, mididoctors, seem to be the only one grasping the argument/reason behind the criteria, and why its implementation is important. Yes, simply said, it's density.
Those who say one might or might not be counting posts, clearly have no idea of automatic cognitive sense (or of its importance and how often it is necessary), and those who speak of motorway speeds seemingly have no idea of bend radii on normal roads (and possible safe speeds).
I'm a bit surprised no one decided to join me in saying the local roadway authorities were deficient in not implementing regulations, and thus are culpable. I think they should be involved/found partly-responsible in the police report.
Is there a fear on the Forum of being so definite? If so, when one of you this summer goes off the edge on the Fluela, another pass with similar deficiencies, well hard luck if later you try to claim the canton didn't implement the regulations there.0 -
Wouldn't the riders have the route on their garmin or equivalent rather than relying on the number of posts? The ds asked Lopez on the movistar doc whether he was looking at the route while descending a sketchy one in the vuelta (where roglic came off), and he said he was seeing where the moto was going instead.0
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Unless your at the front of the race chasing on a descent may not have this Moto advantage. One reason I thought these bad offs happen behindkingstongraham said:Wouldn't the riders have the route on their garmin or equivalent rather than relying on the number of posts? The ds asked Lopez on the movistar doc whether he was looking at the route while descending a sketchy one in the vuelta (where roglic came off), and he said he was seeing where the moto was going instead.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I was more talking about the garmin not the moto, that was just an aside.mididoctors said:
Unless your at the front of the race chasing on a descent may not have this Moto advantage. One reason I thought these bad offs happen behindkingstongraham said:Wouldn't the riders have the route on their garmin or equivalent rather than relying on the number of posts? The ds asked Lopez on the movistar doc whether he was looking at the route while descending a sketchy one in the vuelta (where roglic came off), and he said he was seeing where the moto was going instead.
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Could you program a Garmin to give a audio or flashy visual warning ...bend ahead ?kingstongraham said:
I was more talking about the garmin not the moto, that was just an aside.mididoctors said:
Unless your at the front of the race chasing on a descent may not have this Moto advantage. One reason I thought these bad offs happen behindkingstongraham said:Wouldn't the riders have the route on their garmin or equivalent rather than relying on the number of posts? The ds asked Lopez on the movistar doc whether he was looking at the route while descending a sketchy one in the vuelta (where roglic came off), and he said he was seeing where the moto was going instead.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
My edge 530 does automatically even I'm not riding a pre programmed route.0
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helpful at speed ?shirley_basso said:My edge 530 does automatically even I'm not riding a pre programmed route.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I'd say so, yes. Lots of the roads around here are pan flat and you can have a 90 degree left followed by a 90 right in fairly quick succession. If you were TTing and didn't know the road you'd be in trouble.
Unsure how it would work on a descent as they aren't sudden 90 degree turns. Not sure you can input your own warnings - unless you marked a Strava segment which started there so it would tell you?0 -
If you have the map on screen you can see which bends are hairpins and which aren't.0
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At 80kph Id rather be looking at the road tbh2
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Maybe they should ride tandems and have someone doing pace notes on the back.2
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True. It does beep for corners. Not usually helpful at my speeds but when it would be helpful I'm not looking down.shirley_basso said:At 80kph Id rather be looking at the road tbh
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
They obviously prefer to also know where the road goes that they can't yet see.shirley_basso said:At 80kph Id rather be looking at the road tbh
Episode 2 of season 3 of the Movistar documentary, about 10 minutes in.
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Sprint finishes would be epicPross said:Maybe they should ride tandems and have someone doing pace notes on the back.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
You want a audible sound that indicates s ..caution bend ahead ....and a alarm 🚨 your going too fast ....pblakeney said:
True. It does beep for corners. Not usually helpful at my speeds but when it would be helpful I'm not looking down.shirley_basso said:At 80kph Id rather be looking at the road tbh
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
As much as downhill skill can make such a difference for the likes of Cav chasing back on the descent after a climb , or Pid breaking away last summer on the descent before Alpe d'Huez, how about...
A safety evaluation of bends for the stages, decide a max speed for hazardous bends and stick a huge sign showing riders live speed (with max speed sign above it) in a good spot before the bends? Break the speed limit, you get a time penalty.
I'm still none the wiser regarding any circumstances that lead to Mader tragically leaving the road, so no idea if speed was a factor.================
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Because Pidcock's descent wasn't to a finish, there was no reason for anyone to try to ride on or possibly beyond their limits to keep up with him. He stopped for a wee and waited for the break that he'd caught and passed once he was in the valley.
Descents to a finish are a different beast.0
