Race safety

DeVlaeminck

In the wake of the tragic death of Gino Mader there's been quite a lot of criticism on social media (twitter anyway) of that descent into the finish and discussion of what should be done to make racing safer.

Amongst other suggestions I've read we should ban descents into finishes or even neutralise every high speed descent. Vaughters has floated the possibility of catch nets on some corners - he did so more as a "might it be possible on the most dangerous corners" but it then gets taken up by others arguing for more extensive use of them.

I did write a load of waffle but I've deleted it because it boils down to should we make changes to make racing safer and if so what ?

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Any possible safety changes starts with knowing what actually happened, causing Mader to leave the road.

Lanterne_Rogue

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

Any possible safety changes starts with knowing what actually happened, causing Mader to leave the road.

It's something other professions could pick up from transportation (or at least rail, aviation and maritime investigations - on the road everyone just shrugs and accepts it as part of the annual harvest). Without seeking to apportion blame, what happened, and where were the holes in the cheese that let the accident sneak past? Then address those specific lessons, rather than relying on vibes.

Perhaps oddly, I do think cycling is happy to have those discussions - the amount of improvement in highlighting and protecting road furniture is quite impressive despite the difficulty of doing it over 160km. I just wonder if a more formal approach might not move things along quicker.

DeVlaeminck

That incident is the catalyst for safety being discussed but it can go beyond the cause and consequences of him leaving the road. If it was just a discussion of that accident it'd just be speculation about a tragedy which wasn't the intention.

pblakeney

Barring physical issues with the road there is no such thing as a dangerous road. Just people going faster than their capabilities. As long as races are happening racers are going to push the boundaries.
Not a pleasant thought but racing will always be inherently dangerous.

Pross

Lanterne_Rogue said:

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

Any possible safety changes starts with knowing what actually happened, causing Mader to leave the road.

It's something other professions could pick up from transportation (or at least rail, aviation and maritime investigations - on the road everyone just shrugs and accepts it as part of the annual harvest). Without seeking to apportion blame, what happened, and where were the holes in the cheese that let the accident sneak past? Then address those specific lessons, rather than relying on vibes.

Perhaps oddly, I do think cycling is happy to have those discussions - the amount of improvement in highlighting and protecting road furniture is quite impressive despite the difficulty of doing it over 160km. I just wonder if a more formal approach might not move things along quicker.

Sorry but that isn’t true. Any road death in the UK is investigated following the Road Death Investigation Manual which follows the same process as investigating a murder. Have a look how much road deaths have dropped over 50 years.

On topic, if we were serious about reducing the risk of this sort of thing happening again in cycling we would probably have to accept the vast majority of mountain descents (and therefore climbs) taken out of races with the only significant climbs being at the end of hockey stick stages. Yet if you look and last year’s Tour and the thread on the Netflix documentary you’ll see how much everyone enjoyed watching Pidcock taking that descent at the limit (and his training video).

Given the roads they often race on I’m surprised we don’t have this happening more often. There’s definitely a need for a review on safety in races, we shouldn’t have scenes like that women’s race the other week, cars parked like they were on a descent towards the end of yesterday’s stage in Occitanie, unprotected street furniture like we’ve seen in some supposedly top races or barriers that collapse like in the Tour of Poland. However, mountain passes are what they are and you can’t build in runoff areas as you can in something like motor racing so the only solution is to leave them out.

poweredbyidris

There's the same discussion every year around the IoM TT (even on here)

Consensus of those who actually have an interest in it seems to be 'they know the risks, it's down to them'

redvision

If descents are removed or neutralised that won't stop accidents in cycling. It's racing and there will always be dangers. Whether that's on a decent, a sprint, collisions with support vehicles etc, you just can't account for every possibility.

The uci should take a leaf from the FIA, if they haven't already (i seem to recall this being set up or discussed in the aftermath of the jakobsob crash in Poland a couple of years ago), and set up a specific body/ department to oversee all race safety, and push the development of safety and protection for riders.

This won't stop accidents and tragic events from happening but at least it will reduce and minimise the risks as far as possible.

mididoctors

I get the impression most in race deaths are descent related? Out of competition is all traffic related it seems .

Descents are part of the sport I don't know what to do about it . .. that road stage had multiple high speed exits off a mountain. Coincidence? Road surface very good and frankly wide open sweepers . However did the steepness and deceptive view up the road made it deadly . It's weird I was watching ayuso live and thinking something was off ...what looked like high speed sweepers tightened up in a unusual fashion ...also the road was steep for a wide road making gaining speed very easy . I really did sense the danger . But couldn't put my finger on it .

Spooks me out in hindsight


We need more specific data on descent crashes and what makes them . A lot of the serious / deadly ones don't happen in tight switch backs. I think repeat think a lot of big offs are on roads where riders try and straighten the road apex to opposite appex thinking they can see down the mountain and accidently get a front wheel in the rough . Portes big off in the Jura at the tour was like that .


I'm rambling . I think the UCI or someone (cpa?) does a big study of every crash in the pro peloton as far back as they have good footage ..at least 2000 . What injuries kill? Better helmets ? Try and understand what it is WE CAN understand .

mididoctors

Here's a thought ... Am I right thinking a lot of descent major offs are done by riders chasing on who have no Moto in front for guidance. Riders in small chase groupettos or in the bus ... Killer offs are rarely on camera but instead behind ?

Or is that just a statistical function of most of the race is always behind in mountain stages .

mididoctors

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

Any possible safety changes starts with knowing what actually happened, causing Mader to leave the road.

Agree 👍

davidof

pblakeney said:

Barring physical issues with the road there is no such thing as a dangerous road. Just people going faster than their capabilities. As long as races are happening racers are going to push the boundaries.
Not a pleasant thought but racing will always be inherently dangerous.

When you think cyclists are descending at 80kph + in lycra with a bit of polystyrene on their heads whereas a motorcylists would be in full protective gear and still quite vulnerable.

mididoctors

Straight going into corner POV


Mader left the road where it says albulapass

mididoctors

Identifying the potential danger and Warning signage MAY have been enough to prevent this .

mididoctors

Albulapass
https://maps.app.goo.gl/8g4YyCLErz5aBEUz8

Looking back at the corner

mididoctors

davidof said:

pblakeney said:

Barring physical issues with the road there is no such thing as a dangerous road. Just people going faster than their capabilities. As long as races are happening racers are going to push the boundaries.
Not a pleasant thought but racing will always be inherently dangerous.

When you think cyclists are descending at 80kph + in lycra with a bit of polystyrene on their heads whereas a motorcylists would be in full protective gear and still quite vulnerable.

I went down the Rousett at a 101kmh with no helmet ...at my age ! Total boomer idiocy thinking bout it.

DeVlaeminck

poweredbyidris said:

There's the same discussion every year around the IoM TT (even on here)

Consensus of those who actually have an interest in it seems to be 'they know the risks, it's down to them'

Yes I must admit that's my view - but I do wonder if it's starting to be at odds with modern thinking. I hope not.

webboo

Did any body watch the tour of Slovenia. I think it was the Italian champion crashed on the same down hill bend on both laps on the last but one stage, he was leading at the time. Several others crashed on the same bend.
They seemed to go in to it too fast brake hard and lock the back wheel up then get flipped.
I guess when people think they are going to get a result the adrenaline takes over.

kingstongraham

mididoctors said:

I get the impression most in race deaths are descent related? Out of competition is all traffic related it seems .

Descents are part of the sport I don't know what to do about it . .. that road stage had multiple high speed exits off a mountain. Coincidence? Road surface very good and frankly wide open sweepers . However did the steepness and deceptive view up the road made it deadly . It's weird I was watching ayuso live and thinking something was off ...what looked like high speed sweepers tightened up in a unusual fashion ...also the road was steep for a wide road making gaining speed very easy . I really did sense the danger . But couldn't put my finger on it .

Spooks me out in hindsight


We need more specific data on descent crashes and what makes them . A lot of the serious / deadly ones don't happen in tight switch backs. I think repeat think a lot of big offs are on roads where riders try and straighten the road apex to opposite appex thinking they can see down the mountain and accidently get a front wheel in the rough . Portes big off in the Jura at the tour was like that .


I'm rambling . I think the UCI or someone (cpa?) does a big study of every crash in the pro peloton as far back as they have good footage ..at least 2000 . What injuries kill? Better helmets ? Try and understand what it is WE CAN understand .

When I said Ayuso was flying - that was on the climb, not the descent. I think he went over the summit with about a minute on the chasers, and finished with about a minute.

mididoctors

kingstongraham said:

mididoctors said:

I get the impression most in race deaths are descent related? Out of competition is all traffic related it seems .

Descents are part of the sport I don't know what to do about it . .. that road stage had multiple high speed exits off a mountain. Coincidence? Road surface very good and frankly wide open sweepers . However did the steepness and deceptive view up the road made it deadly . It's weird I was watching ayuso live and thinking something was off ...what looked like high speed sweepers tightened up in a unusual fashion ...also the road was steep for a wide road making gaining speed very easy . I really did sense the danger . But couldn't put my finger on it .

Spooks me out in hindsight


We need more specific data on descent crashes and what makes them . A lot of the serious / deadly ones don't happen in tight switch backs. I think repeat think a lot of big offs are on roads where riders try and straighten the road apex to opposite appex thinking they can see down the mountain and accidently get a front wheel in the rough . Portes big off in the Jura at the tour was like that .


I'm rambling . I think the UCI or someone (cpa?) does a big study of every crash in the pro peloton as far back as they have good footage ..at least 2000 . What injuries kill? Better helmets ? Try and understand what it is WE CAN understand .

When I said Ayuso was flying - that was on the climb, not the descent. I think he went over the summit with about a minute on the chasers, and finished with about a minute.

I reckon so... But it was the descent that caught me .

kingstongraham

mididoctors said:

kingstongraham said:

mididoctors said:

I get the impression most in race deaths are descent related? Out of competition is all traffic related it seems .

Descents are part of the sport I don't know what to do about it . .. that road stage had multiple high speed exits off a mountain. Coincidence? Road surface very good and frankly wide open sweepers . However did the steepness and deceptive view up the road made it deadly . It's weird I was watching ayuso live and thinking something was off ...what looked like high speed sweepers tightened up in a unusual fashion ...also the road was steep for a wide road making gaining speed very easy . I really did sense the danger . But couldn't put my finger on it .

Spooks me out in hindsight


We need more specific data on descent crashes and what makes them . A lot of the serious / deadly ones don't happen in tight switch backs. I think repeat think a lot of big offs are on roads where riders try and straighten the road apex to opposite appex thinking they can see down the mountain and accidently get a front wheel in the rough . Portes big off in the Jura at the tour was like that .


I'm rambling . I think the UCI or someone (cpa?) does a big study of every crash in the pro peloton as far back as they have good footage ..at least 2000 . What injuries kill? Better helmets ? Try and understand what it is WE CAN understand .

When I said Ayuso was flying - that was on the climb, not the descent. I think he went over the summit with about a minute on the chasers, and finished with about a minute.

I reckon so... But it was the descent that caught me .

It was a very fast descent - the camera bike showed 100kmh at one point, I think just before the tighter hairpins started.

There's only a handful of riders I can think of who can actually gain significant time on a descent, and it's only on the descent to a finish that it makes sense for them to push it to the limit.

webboo

mididoctors said:

kingstongraham said:

mididoctors said:

I get the impression most in race deaths are descent related? Out of competition is all traffic related it seems .

Descents are part of the sport I don't know what to do about it . .. that road stage had multiple high speed exits off a mountain. Coincidence? Road surface very good and frankly wide open sweepers . However did the steepness and deceptive view up the road made it deadly . It's weird I was watching ayuso live and thinking something was off ...what looked like high speed sweepers tightened up in a unusual fashion ...also the road was steep for a wide road making gaining speed very easy . I really did sense the danger . But couldn't put my finger on it .

Spooks me out in hindsight


We need more specific data on descent crashes and what makes them . A lot of the serious / deadly ones don't happen in tight switch backs. I think repeat think a lot of big offs are on roads where riders try and straighten the road apex to opposite appex thinking they can see down the mountain and accidently get a front wheel in the rough . Portes big off in the Jura at the tour was like that .


I'm rambling . I think the UCI or someone (cpa?) does a big study of every crash in the pro peloton as far back as they have good footage ..at least 2000 . What injuries kill? Better helmets ? Try and understand what it is WE CAN understand .

When I said Ayuso was flying - that was on the climb, not the descent. I think he went over the summit with about a minute on the chasers, and finished with about a minute.

I reckon so... But it was the descent that caught me .

I felt a bit queasy watching him go down that descent. I’ve watched lots of others descents and the videos of TP and not felt anything but awe. But that one was odd.

vincesummerskRoxcBTr

webboo said:

Did any body watch the tour of Slovenia. I think it was the Italian champion crashed on the same down hill bend on both laps on the last but one stage, he was leading at the time. Several others crashed on the same bend.
They seemed to go in to it too fast brake hard and lock the back wheel up then get flipped.
I guess when people think they are going to get a result the adrenaline takes over.

I did and saw Zanna crash on it and he was very lucky to walk away from that.
That particular corner looked as though it needed a Marshall with whistle etc warning about how tight a corner it was.

mididoctors

Both mader and Sheffield crashed same place ..did they collide or follow one another off the road or just make similar errors at the same place .at different times... Some people say they were not together on the climb

rick_chasey

The recent deaths in Belgium were moto related weren’t they?

Rather morbid list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_racing_cyclists_and_pacemakers_with_a_cycling-related_death

m.r.m.

webboo said:

I felt a bit queasy watching him go down that descent. I’ve watched lots of others descents and the videos of TP and not felt anything but awe. But that one was odd.

It's what sets especially Pidcock apart from other phenomenal descenders. He has such mastery, that he makes it look simple or easy. That is the highest possible level of mastery. Nibali was similar, but Pidcock has taken it another step forward.

rick_chasey

rick_chasey said:

The recent deaths in Belgium were moto related weren’t they?

Rather morbid list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_racing_cyclists_and_pacemakers_with_a_cycling-related_death

Puts some data around it:

Gino Mäder - crashed descending
Suleiman Kangangi - high speed crash - presumably downhill
Bjorg Lambrecht - flat stage, crashed into a concrete culvert (a bit like Maeder but without the downhill element)
Robbert de Greef - heart attack
Stef Loos - hit a van after turning off the race by mistake
Michael Goolaerts - heart attack
Mathieu Riebel - crashed descending
Casey Saunders - crit crash
Chad Young - crashed descending
Gijs Verdick - heart attack
Daan Myngheer - heart attack
Antoine Demoitié - hit by a moto in G-W
Marcelo Graces hit by a moto
Wouter Weylandt - crashed descending
Thomas Casarotto - crashed into a parked car
Bruno Neves - heart attack.

List goes on, but they can broadly be catagorised as - heart attack, vehicle crash and then a "course" crash, so to speak, which can then be split into descending and flat if that's of relevance.

TBH, I don't really know what can be done about course related crashes that aren't already being done. The distances covered are so far you can't really expect race organisers to put ski-style nets down all descents, nor can they be expected to remove all the relevant road furniture.

The vehicles are the obvious low hanging fruit here, and I think we need to recognise that modern roads with modern road furniture means you must have fewer vehicles in the race to keep it safe. I think it's reasonable for professional races to expect to have no parked cars on the course.

The heart attacks - you'd presume there is something to be done about regular compulsory check ups on riders' hearts, but I don't know if they exist already or not.

mididoctors

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

The recent deaths in Belgium were moto related weren’t they?

Rather morbid list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_racing_cyclists_and_pacemakers_with_a_cycling-related_death

Puts some data around it:

Gino Mäder - crashed descending
Suleiman Kangangi - high speed crash - presumably downhill
Bjorg Lambrecht - flat stage, crashed into a concrete culvert (a bit like Maeder but without the downhill element)
Robbert de Greef - heart attack
Stef Loos - hit a van after turning off the race by mistake
Michael Goolaerts - heart attack
Mathieu Riebel - crashed descending
Casey Saunders - crit crash
Chad Young - crashed descending
Gijs Verdick - heart attack
Daan Myngheer - heart attack
Antoine Demoitié - hit by a moto in G-W
Marcelo Graces hit by a moto
Wouter Weylandt - crashed descending
Thomas Casarotto - crashed into a parked car
Bruno Neves - heart attack.

List goes on, but they can broadly be catagorised as - heart attack, vehicle crash and then a "course" crash, so to speak, which can then be split into descending and flat if that's of relevance.

TBH, I don't really know what can be done about course related crashes that aren't already being done. The distances covered are so far you can't really expect race organisers to put ski-style nets down all descents, nor can they be expected to remove all the relevant road furniture.

The vehicles are the obvious low hanging fruit here, and I think we need to recognise that modern roads with modern road furniture means you must have fewer vehicles in the race to keep it safe. I think it's reasonable for professional races to expect to have no parked cars on the course.

The heart attacks - you'd presume there is something to be done about regular compulsory check ups on riders' hearts, but I don't know if they exist already or not.

Good post

It does not look a totally impossible task tbh .... There are patterns that can be followed and areas you have already defined that can be worked on to see if improvements can be made .

I would study every crash available including trivial not just lethal .. it's a big task for some random internet forum people but not a funded study .... Would not cost 10s of millions ..maybe a few million

Heart attacks are a big group ..I remember the guy dying at P - R a few years back ...

The more I look at maders crash the more I think a bit of extra marshalling/signage would have saved lives ...

Dorset_Boy

On a descent, some kind of markings on the road to indication a tightening corner might be an idea.?

rick_chasey

Dorset_Boy said:

On a descent, some kind of markings on the road to indication a tightening corner might be an idea.?

Yeah a sort of universal code for types of corners and road furniture, a bit like the old Colin McRae rally

No_Ta_Doctor

I think it would probably be better to have some general warnings, rather than specific gradings - otherwise we're going to end up with a race organiser accused of not grading a turn hard enough...