Strade Bianche:- Siena › Siena 184km ***Spoilers***

135

Comments

  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,130
    ddraver said:

    (I'm still head over heels in love with Laura Trott it seems...)

    What - I thought you were all in for PFP (and isn't Evie also on your list) ;)
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,776
    r0bh said:

    Time gap correct at 3km, 25s

    Corrected
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,383
    edited March 2023
    andyrac said:

    ddraver said:

    (I'm still head over heels in love with Laura Trott it seems...)

    What - I thought you were all in for PFP (and isn't Evie also on your list) ;)
    Sadly* Evie is much too you for me...

    (* is so much that it means I'm really very old now)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,776

    Long way to go solo…

    Good call Rick. :D
    Wasn’t a short way…
    I thought (and probably him too) some favourites would have jumped across .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,570
    edited March 2023
    PFP rules <3

    Stunning ride by TP, genuinely thought he was toast when it was down to 6 seconds.

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  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,663
    That was impressive by Pidders. He's upping his cred, bit by bit. I did think he was going to get caught in those last few km but if the chasers don't get their act together...
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    The fact he didn’t crack when he’s lead dropped under 10 seconds I thought was pretty impressive.
    Also I wonder how the powers that be at Ineos feel about his Californium descending trip now.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,095
    orraloon said:

    That was impressive by Pidders. He's upping his cred, bit by bit. I did think he was going to get caught in those last few km but if the chasers don't get their act together...

    I was idly wondering if Rui Costa is on the Ineos payroll as part of his deal at Intermarche. If he'd not been there, I think the others would've collaborated enough to bring Pidcock back. Did he actually get his nose in the wind?
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,192
    After Jumbo Visma's dominance last weekend it was nice to see that they are still able to mess it up on occasion
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    andyp said:

    orraloon said:

    That was impressive by Pidders. He's upping his cred, bit by bit. I did think he was going to get caught in those last few km but if the chasers don't get their act together...

    I was idly wondering if Rui Costa is on the Ineos payroll as part of his deal at Intermarche. If he'd not been there, I think the others would've collaborated enough to bring Pidcock back. Did he actually get his nose in the wind?
    Other than when he’s won races has Rui ever put his nose in the wind.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    webboo said:

    The fact he didn’t crack when he’s lead dropped under 10 seconds I thought was pretty impressive.
    Also I wonder how the powers that be at Ineos feel about his Californium descending trip now.

    I thought he cracked De Marchi on those descents.

    Quality ride on a quality race that, just caught up.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,519
    r0bh said:

    After Jumbo Visma's dominance last weekend it was nice to see that they are still able to mess it up on occasion

    Different story if WvA turns up
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,570
    That's a massive assumption.

    Most people thought MvdP would take it, myself included.
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  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,811
    edited March 2023

    r0bh said:

    After Jumbo Visma's dominance last weekend it was nice to see that they are still able to mess it up on occasion

    Different story if WvA turns up
    Most people thought it would be a different story with MvDP in the race.
    As the saying goes, you have to be in it to win it and WvA was AWOL.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • JimD666
    JimD666 Posts: 1,911

    r0bh said:

    After Jumbo Visma's dominance last weekend it was nice to see that they are still able to mess it up on occasion

    Different story if WvA turns up
    Most people thought it would be a different story with MvDP in the race.
    As the saying goes, you have to be in it to win it and WvA was AWOL.
    So was MvDP!
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    At 45K to go having just bridged a gap to a couple of riders who might be a threat, he lets it go on a descent. Gets a gap and thinks why not, then holds a gap of a minute or less for the rest of the race. That takes some belief in one’s ability because if he let them come back to him at the end of the gravel session where he’d got the gap. He could have just sat on the wheels and gone for it on any other of the gravel sections.
    It’s a case “ F*ck it let’s ride”
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,091
    Fascinating to watch even knowing the result.

    I've got bored of trying to separate hype from reality with Pidcock, so I'm just going to enjoy it. He's clearly got talent to burn but there are lots of other brilliant riders right now. When it clicks for him though - in any discipline - he's utterly compelling.
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,803
    TP is deffo looking at the GTs and thinking maybe not this year, or the year after, but Pog and JV your cards are marked. He’s deffo the contender.
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,803
    I just think MVdP is hype.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,279

    Fascinating to watch even knowing the result.

    I've got bored of trying to separate hype from reality with Pidcock, so I'm just going to enjoy it. He's clearly got talent to burn but there are lots of other brilliant riders right now. When it clicks for him though - in any discipline - he's utterly compelling.

    In the Tour he nearly had Rolf Sørensen in tears with the beauty of his descending, today Brian Holm couldn't stop raving about how brilliant he was to watch.

    When he's in full flow he's stunning
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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,201
    The way he used/worked with the two leaders/patsies who he bridged across to was really good.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,776
    webboo said:

    andyp said:

    orraloon said:

    That was impressive by Pidders. He's upping his cred, bit by bit. I did think he was going to get caught in those last few km but if the chasers don't get their act together...

    I was idly wondering if Rui Costa is on the Ineos payroll as part of his deal at Intermarche. If he'd not been there, I think the others would've collaborated enough to bring Pidcock back. Did he actually get his nose in the wind?
    Other than when he’s won races has Rui ever put his nose in the wind.
    Greatest wheel sucker since bortolami
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,147
    I'm still disappointed that Pidcock's nickname isn't Stuart.

    Still, that was the best performance by a British rider* in a one day race since Stannard mugged Quick Step. Perhaps even better.


    *Male rider obvs. Male/Female doesn't bear comparison IMO
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,334


    I've got bored of trying to separate hype from reality with Pidcock, so I'm just going to enjoy it. He's clearly got talent to burn but there are lots of other brilliant riders right now. When it clicks for him though - in any discipline - he's utterly compelling.

    Think it goes like this: Technically he is in a group of 2 (MvdP). In terms of descending he is probably the best in the world or in a group of 2 (Mohoric).

    He can climb due to his light weight, but he is a puncheur so his muscle fibres aren't pure climbing fibres, he has a fair portion of type 2 fibres. His threshold and
    absolute watts aren't incredibly high, so he can't outclimb the truly elite even on very long climbs despite his low weight. Balancing that if you so will, his higher amount (compared to pure climbers) of type 2 fibres allow him to occasionally even outsprint WVA or other such riders.
    He is a lighter Alaphilippe in the Tour GC shape. So he can win on Alpe d'Huez (better climber due to low weight than Alaphilippe & possibly even Valverde), but isn't automatic for Fleche Wallonne like those two.

    I'd guess a solid part of his results against truly elite competition come from his elite bike handling and his elite lactate clearance (both like MvdP who for example can save watts against WVA from his superior handling and has a better lactate rate than WVA to be able to recover faster after hard attacks/hard races to outsprint him if all goes to plan and he hasn't worked himself to death like against Asgreen in RvV or Biniam in the Giro, who had team help where MvdP was alone and attacked even prior to the reduced sprint, the thumbs up one). The lactate clearance rate allows him to go deeper into VO2 max repeatedly to compensate for the lack of absolute watts when faced against elite competition, which then probably requires more rest and doesn't usually allow him to string together big victory after big victory, which to us makes him seem like an up and down rider. He does perform when he has set big objectives and is rested for them (CX worlds, XCO Olympics). The slight build and low weight probably add to needing increased recovery from going deep and might put him at higher risk for sickness etc. (like his lack of form for MSR last year if I remember correctly). His youth adds to that as it's only normal for young athletes to need a while to put all the pieces together to be consistently elite.


    And since I brought up Valverde, I think he is blessed to have a certain level of ruggedness to be able to sustain an incredible level for the entire year just the opposite of other athletes like Gareth Bale for example who are perennially injured. Valverde's incredible work ethic strengthen that ability. However, he seldomly goes super deep in races (picks his spots) since he is probably the elite rider most content with a podium spot instead of selling out for the win. If he is in the chase group he will never really work and the chase group will usually never make it. He is chase group poison. If he is clearly the strongest sprinter in the leading group, he will work just enough to get to the finish and dust everyone there. That type of riding is both (somewhat frustratingly) smart and requires less recovery, allowing him to remain fresher for longer. Pidcock sells out for the win and would thus usually not be able to sustain the peaks like Valverde could.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,729
    edited March 2023
    Despite his size I don't see him as a natural grand tour rider - MRM does a fairly comprehensive assessment of his strengths and weaknesses.

    How much of that is due to his development as a CX rider - a discipline that requires on/off efforts more than any other I can think of - is the question for me. In other words how much of his physiological type is genetic or fixed (possibly due to how he trained in his formative years) and how much is down to the events he has focused on and the training he does.

    It's a bit like the should Cav focus more on classics debate - it's very hard to say a successful rider should risk losing what they are good at to try and possibly fail at becoming good at something else. Of course there are riders that span winning grand tours and compete in punchy classics races and more so now than a few years ago when specialisation was seen as the only game in town.
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  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,130
    edited March 2023
    andyp said:

    I just think MVdP is hype.

    I don't think you win the Tour of Flanders twice, and arguably should have a third, without having a bit more about you than just hype.
    Well yes; 2x Flanders, Amstel, Strade, Tour & Giro stage wins among big Road wins, 5x CX World Champion, multiple MTB World Cup wins......and one of only 2 riders to win World Cups in CX, XCO & XCC.
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,334

    Despite his size I don't see him as a natural grand tour rider - MRM does a fairly comprehensive assessment of his strengths and weaknesses.

    How much of that is due to his development as a CX rider - a discipline that requires on/off efforts more than any other I can think of - is the question for me. In other words how much of his physiological type is genetic or fixed (possibly due to how he trained in his formative years) and how much is down to the events he has focused on and the training he does.

    It's a bit like the should Cav focus more on classics debate - it's very hard to say a successful rider should risk losing what they are good at to try and possibly fail at becoming good at something else. Of course there are riders that span winning grand tours and compete in punchy classics races and more so now than a few years ago when specialisation was seen as the only game in town.

    I agree with you regarding GC on GT's. He doesn't seem to have the threshold to compete with Pogacar, Vingegaard or Roglic. We would need the absolute figures to be able to truly judge that. However, I do think he can beat the second or third tier GC riders in the Giro or Vuelta (basically win any GT the top 4 don't attend) by going for time bonuses, putting pressure on downhills and limiting his losses in the ITT's or longer climbs. Maybe like Nibali (in terms of strategy not rider type).
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    As much as I hope TP goes on to win big things. What would be great if on some long downhill where the peloton is all lined out in aero tucks, he comes past with his feet out of the pedals with his legs at 45 degrees to his bike.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,776
    m.r.m. said:

    Despite his size I don't see him as a natural grand tour rider - MRM does a fairly comprehensive assessment of his strengths and weaknesses.

    How much of that is due to his development as a CX rider - a discipline that requires on/off efforts more than any other I can think of - is the question for me. In other words how much of his physiological type is genetic or fixed (possibly due to how he trained in his formative years) and how much is down to the events he has focused on and the training he does.

    It's a bit like the should Cav focus more on classics debate - it's very hard to say a successful rider should risk losing what they are good at to try and possibly fail at becoming good at something else. Of course there are riders that span winning grand tours and compete in punchy classics races and more so now than a few years ago when specialisation was seen as the only game in town.

    I agree with you regarding GC on GT's. He doesn't seem to have the threshold to compete with Pogacar, Vingegaard or Roglic. We would need the absolute figures to be able to truly judge that. However, I do think he can beat the second or third tier GC riders in the Giro or Vuelta (basically win any GT the top 4 don't attend) by going for time bonuses, putting pressure on downhills and limiting his losses in the ITT's or longer climbs. Maybe like Nibali (in terms of strategy not rider type).
    He was top 10 on GC in the tour but faded in the third ... GC is not impossible is my read
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm