ERG mode bad for you??

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Comments

  • yellowv2
    yellowv2 Posts: 282
    Surely if you set a higher ERG wattage than you are able to sustain you will very quickly enter the spiral of death and that will be the end?
  • i.bhamra
    i.bhamra Posts: 304
    DeVlaeminck said:

    We disagree.

    I don't buy that you can work harder in erg mode - that's the bottom line.

    You can't work harder but you can definitely pedal in a less efficient manner (eg grinding away at 50rpm) in an attempt to complete an interval rather than doing the sensible thing and dialing down the resistance.

    It's not a fault of ERG mode, it's rider error, but I can see how it's more likely to happen in ERG mode.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,330
    yellowv2 said:

    Surely if you set a higher ERG wattage than you are able to sustain you will very quickly enter the spiral of death and that will be the end?

    Yes. Operator error.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    ERG is the equivalent of swimming with some weights… you can’t slow down or you’ll drawn… the difference is that you can stop, but you can’t go easier… the risk of injury comes from people refusing to stop and grinding through very low cadences.

    Daniel b, your cadence is way to slow for indoor training, you should be aiming for 85-90.
    I think your intervals are too ambitious, looking at the numbers.
    left the forum March 2023
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    I
    pblakeney said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    We disagree.

    I don't buy that you can work harder in erg mode - that's the bottom line.

    I think things are just being worded differently.
    You can set a higher ERG than you are physically capable of sustaining.
    Yes I could set 400 watts for 5 minutes - I would just end up doing a shorter interval - I don't see how that is causing injury at a greater rate than me setting myself a target of 400 watts in non erg mode and failing to complete the interval.

    I can't go deeper than I can go - I get motivation makes a difference I just question whether a) it makes enough difference to cause injury and b) whether having erg mode on is really more motivating to dig deep than looking at your watts in the screen or being in a race.

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    ugo.santalucia said:

    ERG is the equivalent of swimming with some weights… you can’t slow down or you’ll drawn… the difference is that you can stop, but you can’t go easier… the risk of injury comes from people refusing to stop and grinding through very low cadences.

    Daniel b, your cadence is way to slow for indoor training, you should be aiming for 85-90.
    I think your intervals are too ambitious, looking at the numbers.

    I don't think you can grind through in erg mode though - at least I can't on my turbo you enter a spiral of death and grind to a halt. Also just in general If you can't hold say 300 watts at 90rpm any more because of fatigue you sure can't hold it at 60 rpm.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    DeVlaeminck said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    ERG is the equivalent of swimming with some weights… you can’t slow down or you’ll drawn… the difference is that you can stop, but you can’t go easier… the risk of injury comes from people refusing to stop and grinding through very low cadences.

    Daniel b, your cadence is way to slow for indoor training, you should be aiming for 85-90.
    I think your intervals are too ambitious, looking at the numbers.

    I don't think you can grind through in erg mode though - at least I can't on my turbo you enter a spiral of death and grind to a halt. Also just in general If you can't hold say 300 watts at 90rpm any more because of fatigue you sure can't hold it at 60 rpm.
    Without ERG mode you could try to hold as close to 300 as you can for the rest of the interval. With ERG mode you are toast.

  • joeyhalloran
    joeyhalloran Posts: 1,080
    kingstongraham said:



    Without ERG mode you could try to hold as close to 300 as you can for the rest of the interval. With ERG mode you are toast.

    Exactly, ERG mode helps you quit when you can't hit your target which prevents any chance of injury.

    My turbo quickly stops as soon as my cadence starts going down, I can't 'grind' through any interval, I just stop. It's like a coach saying "Nope, you don't have this".

    Also, while those cadences look low, there is no way for an internet forum to know if that's an issue, cadence is very self-selected. I'd take anyone commenting on them with advice with a massive fistful of salt.

  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    joeyhalloran said:

    kingstongraham said:



    Without ERG mode you could try to hold as close to 300 as you can for the rest of the interval. With ERG mode you are toast.

    Exactly, ERG mode helps you quit when you can't hit your target which prevents any chance of injury.

    My turbo quickly stops as soon as my cadence starts going down, I can't 'grind' through any interval, I just stop. It's like a coach saying "Nope, you don't have this".

    Also, while those cadences look low, there is no way for an internet forum to know if that's an issue, cadence is very self-selected. I'd take anyone commenting on them with advice with a massive fistful of salt.

    Sure, if you want to quit rather than doing the session as well as you can.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,330
    edited January 2023
    joeyhalloran said:

    kingstongraham said:



    Without ERG mode you could try to hold as close to 300 as you can for the rest of the interval. With ERG mode you are toast.

    Exactly, ERG mode helps you quit when you can't hit your target which prevents any chance of injury.

    My turbo quickly stops as soon as my cadence starts going down, I can't 'grind' through any interval, I just stop. It's like a coach saying "Nope, you don't have this".

    ...
    The trouble is that some people do not want to quit and keep pushing at that ever decreasing cadence. This is when there is potential for injury. Without ERG you simply ease off.

    For the benefit of doubt, I do not blame ERG. I blame riders using it incorrectly.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    edited January 2023
    kingstongraham said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    ERG is the equivalent of swimming with some weights… you can’t slow down or you’ll drawn… the difference is that you can stop, but you can’t go easier… the risk of injury comes from people refusing to stop and grinding through very low cadences.

    Daniel b, your cadence is way to slow for indoor training, you should be aiming for 85-90.
    I think your intervals are too ambitious, looking at the numbers.

    I don't think you can grind through in erg mode though - at least I can't on my turbo you enter a spiral of death and grind to a halt. Also just in general If you can't hold say 300 watts at 90rpm any more because of fatigue you sure can't hold it at 60 rpm.
    Without ERG mode you could try to hold as close to 300 as you can for the rest of the interval. With ERG mode you are toast.


    Exactly - it's actually more likely you'll end up grinding at ever decreasing wattages just giving whatever you've got left without erg mode. Erg mode when you can't make the wattage it's game over.

    Edit - as Joey said above
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    Of course it's the riders fault, no-one has suggested otherwise, only that erg provides the temptation, which can be hard to resist.

    And back to my original post, seems to be a common cause of injury in cyclists.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    I think ERG becomes a necessity with smart apps, where the session would otherwise be driven by the terrain. You can’t do hard long intervals if the terrain is mixed, you need a constant gradient. You could do the same sessions without the erg mode with a simple trainer by increasing the resistance or driving the trainer with a Garmin, setting a constant gradient. There might be courses and routes with a constant gradient, but there aren’t very many.
    left the forum March 2023
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    edited January 2023
    I Googled "indoor cycling injuries" last night. Most of the "hits" related to unfit people jiggering themselves when starting intense spin classes or when hitting Peloton during lockdown. The particular issue is that cycling employs all the large muscle groups in the lower body, and if there is damage from overloading muscles and joints, it can be quite serious, particularly in the context of an organised class where there is heavy pressure to "man/woman up" and keep going. It's easy to see that the same logic would apply to an existing cyclist "going large" with heavy loads on a turbo.

    That said, pretty much all the "Common indoor cycling injury" type articles referred mainly to the more traditional knee, lower back and hip issues in terms of "have to stop until recovered" injuries, with handlebar palsy, saddle sores and stiff neck/shoulders in the "annoying but fixable via changing position" category.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    edited January 2023
    ugo.santalucia said:

    You can’t do hard long intervals if the terrain is mixed, you need a constant gradient.

    This is where the monastic solitude of the WattBike Quick Ride comes into its own. There is no terrain. Just a straight, flat path to oblivion (should you choose to take it!)

  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    ugo.santalucia said:

    I think ERG becomes a necessity with smart apps, where the session would otherwise be driven by the terrain. You can’t do hard long intervals if the terrain is mixed, you need a constant gradient. You could do the same sessions without the erg mode with a simple trainer by increasing the resistance or driving the trainer with a Garmin, setting a constant gradient. There might be courses and routes with a constant gradient, but there aren’t very many.


    You can turn the gradient off (in zwift anyway) by turning the trainer difficulty to zero - effectively everything is then a flat course - the gradient affects speed but not resistance - then just use your gears to provide resistance.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    DeVlaeminck said:

    You can turn the gradient off (in zwift anyway)...

    If only the Zwift-related qualification wasn't needed there!

  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    wallace_and_gromit said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    You can turn the gradient off (in zwift anyway)...

    If only the Zwift-related qualification wasn't needed there!

    You could just not connect your smart trainer to the application and just connect the power source.

    Not sure why you would.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    kingstongraham said:

    wallace_and_gromit said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    You can turn the gradient off (in zwift anyway)...

    If only the Zwift-related qualification wasn't needed there!

    You could just not connect your smart trainer to the application and just connect the power source.

    Not sure why you would.
    Sorry. It was a (bad) joke about how much better the cycling world would be if you could turn off the gradient in real life!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,330
    wallace_and_gromit said:

    kingstongraham said:

    wallace_and_gromit said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    You can turn the gradient off (in zwift anyway)...

    If only the Zwift-related qualification wasn't needed there!

    You could just not connect your smart trainer to the application and just connect the power source.

    Not sure why you would.
    Sorry. It was a (bad) joke about how much better the cycling world would be if you could turn off the gradient in real life!
    I know of one guy who has a Strava KOM on a climb minutes faster than Pogacar. It has been flagged but remains. Technique? Sets slope to zero a dumb trainer using speed as the only factor. Totally unapologetic.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    pblakeney said:

    wallace_and_gromit said:

    kingstongraham said:

    wallace_and_gromit said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    You can turn the gradient off (in zwift anyway)...

    If only the Zwift-related qualification wasn't needed there!

    You could just not connect your smart trainer to the application and just connect the power source.

    Not sure why you would.
    Sorry. It was a (bad) joke about how much better the cycling world would be if you could turn off the gradient in real life!
    I know of one guy who has a Strava KOM on a climb minutes faster than Pogacar. It has been flagged but remains. Technique? Sets slope to zero a dumb trainer using speed as the only factor. Totally unapologetic.
    That is frankly weird!

    I think I'm at the other end of the spectrum in that respect. On the (very) rare occasions that I have achieved a good finishing position in a race, or beaten a serious rider up a climb in a competitive club ride, I immediately assume that the opposition wasn't very good, or wasn't trying. It never occurs to me that I might have done something noteworthy!
  • kingrollo
    kingrollo Posts: 3,198
    Personally I think its riding a static trainer - there is no side to side wobble of the vast majority of trainers. A rocker board may be worth a look.

    Equally my fitter suggested that pedalling a turbo in too easy a gear can cause problems your not getting those minor lifts that pushing some resistance would give.

    Bit of a balancing act as you get older I suppose.

  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    Did my first ramp test... using ERG mode... failed in the 400 W step, about 20 seconds in, so my best minute was 386 W... using the 75% rule, that works out as a 289W FTP, which probably has a bit of hill climber inflation, but a useful number to set the intervals nonetheless.
    As for the real FTP, I'd be happy if I could do an hour at 270W
    left the forum March 2023
  • dannbodge
    dannbodge Posts: 1,152
    ugo.santalucia said:

    Did my first ramp test... using ERG mode... failed in the 400 W step, about 20 seconds in, so my best minute was 386 W... using the 75% rule, that works out as a 289W FTP, which probably has a bit of hill climber inflation, but a useful number to set the intervals nonetheless.
    As for the real FTP, I'd be happy if I could do an hour at 270W

    I'm planning on doing a ramp test on monday.
    Will be happy if I get the same FTP as previously (275w) but I'm not too sure.

    I've held my FTP for an hour before (zwift "race" which went up AdZ) but again not sure if I could now.
  • dannbodge
    dannbodge Posts: 1,152
    Well that's mine done.

    Finsihed the 360w section and legs stopped working, so once again my FTP comes out at 272w..... The same as it has done since 2019.

    Only difference is I've lost a bit of weight since then so still sitting at 4 .0w/kg, which isn't bad seeing as I've been consistently inconsistent the last 2 years.

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