ERG mode bad for you??

redvision

So I'm currently undergoing treatment on an injury I sustained last March and saw the specialist again today who gave me some interesting info. He claims that the injury I sustained (groin and labral) is becoming far more common amongst cyclists and there is apparently a clear connection to training on turbo trainers and in particular erg mode.

Anyone else heard this?

ugo.santalucia

Seems to know a lot about the topic… the risk of ERG mode is that of overdoing it and grinding yourself into a low cadence hole of pain. The other risk, unrelated to ERG is that of overdoing it with intervals… I see a lot of people definitively doing too many sessions per week

pblakeney

Strikes me that ERG can be used to set an easier recovery.
Or set too high which will cause or aggravate injury. I suspect many go full macho.

redvision

ugo.santalucia said:

Seems to know a lot about the topic… the risk of ERG mode is that of overdoing it and grinding yourself into a low cadence hole of pain. The other risk, unrelated to ERG is that of overdoing it with intervals… I see a lot of people definitively doing too many sessions per week

Tbh I'm probably guilty of that.

The more I think about his comments the more it makes sense and is pretty obvious. Just hadn't even considered the injury risks erg mode (pushing to much) can lead to.

wallace_and_gromit

pblakeney said:

Strikes me that ERG can be used to set an easier recovery.
Or set too high which will cause or aggravate injury. I suspect many go full macho.

I tend to use ERG mode a fair bit for recovery, or at least controlled sub-maximal sessions, where once warmed up, I set the desired wattage and then zone out to cr*p on TV.

I also use it on harder sessions where I set vary the wattage as the session progresses, depending on how I feel. I always knock the wattage down if I'm struggling to keep the cadence high enough. For me, grinding low gears does my back no favours.

kingstongraham

Once you get into the cycle of doom you need to quit the interval and get it sorted. You'll never recover it.

ugo.santalucia

They are repetitive strain injuries, so it is more down to volume than intensity. I have to discipline myself to no more than two hard workouts a week and no long stuff at high intensity… I generally try to keep it under 45 minutes if it’s intense. I’ve seen people doing 3 hours on Zwift several times a week

pblakeney

wallace_and_gromit said:

pblakeney said:

Strikes me that ERG can be used to set an easier recovery.
Or set too high which will cause or aggravate injury. I suspect many go full macho.

I tend to use ERG mode a fair bit for recovery, or at least controlled sub-maximal sessions, where once warmed up, I set the desired wattage and then zone out to cr*p on TV.

I also use it on harder sessions where I set vary the wattage as the session progresses, depending on how I feel. I always knock the wattage down if I'm struggling to keep the cadence high enough. For me, grinding low gears does my back no favours.

As it should be used. I said "many", not all.
Keep up the good work. 😎

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Not something I have come across. I only use ERG mode, as I can set a specific power and keep it constant. Mainly it is for recovery though, although the odd interval session as well.

Have to admit, the 3-5 min intervals at vo2 max type efforts are harder as I get older so I can understand where the specialist can see a link to muscle injuries. No problem with these sessions outdoors, but on a trainer there is definitely a higher perceived effort and legs feel heavier, even though HR and power are the same.

wallace_and_gromit

pblakeney said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

pblakeney said:

Strikes me that ERG can be used to set an easier recovery.
Or set too high which will cause or aggravate injury. I suspect many go full macho.

I tend to use ERG mode a fair bit for recovery, or at least controlled sub-maximal sessions, where once warmed up, I set the desired wattage and then zone out to cr*p on TV.

I also use it on harder sessions where I set vary the wattage as the session progresses, depending on how I feel. I always knock the wattage down if I'm struggling to keep the cadence high enough. For me, grinding low gears does my back no favours.

As it should be used. I said "many", not all.
Keep up the good work. 😎

"Back in the day" I trained extensively on the Concept 2 indoor rower. In the foolishness of my youth, I regularly "pulled" myself into oblivion. (One "pulls" on an indoor rower whereas one "rows" in a boat. Don't ask me why.) It's no surprise that the WattBike (made by Concept 2 as well) is so addictive, along with other equivalent kit. Fortunately, I learnt the hard way in my rowing days that the machine always wins, so am now much more sparing in my full on efforts. I've only really overcooked things indoors twice in the last year. Once when I dished it out to the "Three Horsemen" in Watopia before being nailed by the 4th, and the other time when I Uber Pretzelled myself.

pblakeney

wallace_and_gromit said:

...Once when I dished it out to the "Three Horsemen" in Watopia before being nailed by the 4th, and the other time when I Uber Pretzelled myself.

Not a full Pretzel? 🤔😱🤣

Tenuous link to an ancient Billy Connolly sketch.

wallace_and_gromit

I managed to “bin” myself on the normal, mega and Uber variants. Didn’t particularly enjoy the Uber tbh. There was an hour or so of arsing around on the flat before the final assault on the Alpe. I don’t like the flat indoors for some reason.

wallace_and_gromit

Duplicate.

ugo.santalucia

I keep modifying my interval session to make it hard enough, but not too hard to cause damage… it’s a very fine line between giving it all, which is good, and feeling broken the day after, which is not so good

redvision

Looking back (hindsight is so wonderful) at my indoor training logs, I would generally ride freely for the first half but then often switched to erg mode in the second half of the session.

Silly silly mistake as I can see now it may have allowed me to think I was getting stronger but it was possibly (probably) doing damage which has resulted or at least contributed to this injury.

kingstongraham

Why would erg mode cause more damage while riding an interval than just sitting and riding at the same intensity?

ugo.santalucia

kingstongraham said:

Why would erg mode cause more damage while riding an interval than just sitting and riding at the same intensity?

Because at fixed resistance you only have two options, continue to grind or stop, in normal mode you can ease…
Basically in erg mode, if you set the interval too hard, you might do yourself some damage

redvision

kingstongraham said:

Why would erg mode cause more damage while riding an interval than just sitting and riding at the same intensity?

For me, pretty much any time I switched to erg mode was always to 'work harder'. Riding normally would generally be producing about 250 watts And have cadence of 75. But I regularly got tempted to increase the watts by using erg mode. My cadence would fall but my power would increase. Turns out this is what was probably doing the damage. At least that was the specialists opinion.

pblakeney

redvision said:

kingstongraham said:

Why would erg mode cause more damage while riding an interval than just sitting and riding at the same intensity?

For me, pretty much any time I switched to erg mode was always to 'work harder'. Riding normally would generally be producing about 250 watts And have cadence of 75. But I regularly got tempted to increase the watts by using erg mode. My cadence would fall but my power would increase. Turns out this is what was probably doing the damage. At least that was the specialists opinion.

Just what I meant when I said some go full macho.

ugo.santalucia

redvision said:

kingstongraham said:

Why would erg mode cause more damage while riding an interval than just sitting and riding at the same intensity?

For me, pretty much any time I switched to erg mode was always to 'work harder'. Riding normally would generally be producing about 250 watts And have cadence of 75. But I regularly got tempted to increase the watts by using erg mode. My cadence would fall but my power would increase. Turns out this is what was probably doing the damage. At least that was the specialists opinion.

Yes, the interval is only useful if you can keep a decent cadence… if it drops too low then it’s no good anymore, unless you are deliberately doing low cadence work, but that is not born out of exhaustion

joeyhalloran

I wouldn't blame erg mode.

feelgoodlost

joeyhalloran said:

I wouldn't blame erg mode.

Exactly. If you're trying to push more than you're capable of then that's on you.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Just what I meant when I said some go full macho

I suspect a lot of people don't adjust power (usually downwards) for indoor trainers either. I doubt many can sustain the same interval power indoors that they can outdoors.

I can comfortably ride a 300+ watt interval for 8mins outside, on a turbo in ERG mode I would last about 90 seconds to 2mins max. For an 8-10 min interval, I would be riding at about 250 watts on a turbo.

DeVlaeminck

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? That said my experience of it is that at higher power levels - near FTP - it feels far harder than in non erg mode like riding through treacle . I assumed this was either a trainer fault or used error but my response was to just stop using it.

It's an interesting theory - I'm not entirely convinced just because I'd need to see why erg mode was different to just doing a lot of trainer work but with the growth of zwift etc if it's a thing it's worth investigation.

pblakeney

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? ...

My experience, and probably flawed but.... If I tire my output and/or cadence will drop. ERG maintains power so resistance just gets harder if your cadence drops. Until injury.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Just what I meant when I said some go full macho

I suspect a lot of people don't adjust power (usually downwards) for indoor trainers either. I doubt many can sustain the same interval power indoors that they can outdoors.

I can comfortably ride a 300+ watt interval for 8mins outside, on a turbo in ERG mode I would last about 90 seconds to 2mins max. For an 8-10 min interval, I would be riding at about 250 watts on a turbo.

Lack of heat adaption on the turbo can certainly be a limiting factor when in transition from "summer" outdoor rides to "winter" turbo season.

Within ~2 weeks numbers ought to be very similar, all things being reasonably equal. Keeping hydrated indoors on harder rides is so important, as is a good fan!

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? That said my experience of it is that at higher power levels - near FTP - it feels far harder than in non erg mode like riding through treacle . I assumed this was either a trainer fault or used error but my response was to just stop using it.

It's an interesting theory - I'm not entirely convinced just because I'd need to see why erg mode was different to just doing a lot of trainer work but with the growth of zwift etc if it's a thing it's worth investigation.

That’s not the theory.
Damage is a result of excessive load over time. Excessive load occurs when you struggle to sustain that power output and as a result your cadence drops.
Which is different from doing 30 seconds on a massive gear

kingstongraham

pblakeney said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? ...

Just my experience, and probably flawed but.... If I tire my output and/or cadence will drop. ERG maintains power so it just gets harder if your cadence drops. Until injury.

Yes, if you start to get into that issue, you need to get out of erg mode, you're already in trouble and will never get back to power.

But generally, if you maintain cadence (or increase cadence when the power goes up), it's no difference to changing gears to get a different power level.

I find it's equally good for keeping power down when in between efforts.

daniel_b

redvision said:

kingstongraham said:

Why would erg mode cause more damage while riding an interval than just sitting and riding at the same intensity?

For me, pretty much any time I switched to erg mode was always to 'work harder'. Riding normally would generally be producing about 250 watts And have cadence of 75. But I regularly got tempted to increase the watts by using erg mode. My cadence would fall but my power would increase. Turns out this is what was probably doing the damage. At least that was the specialists opinion.

Intriguing, and first and foremost, good luck with the recovery, I hope it isn't too impactful to you and what you want to do.

When I started riding my cadence was mid 70s, then being on trainerroad I got it up to around 85. In the last couple of years, still continuing on TR, my natural cadence has dropped again.
Out on the road, if I am going for a full out effort, it tends to average around 75-78.
I don't monitor it much, if at all, and tend to go on feel, rightly or wrongly.

I also find on the intervals on the turbo, I quite often find myself dropping to a cadence of 60 or thereabouts.
I was under the impression that some low cadence 'strength work' is good overall, as otherwise bone strength (density?) can suffer.
I have not experienced any injuries, or pain due to this, and have a history of low back pain - though what I will say is the stronger I get, the less my back gives me issues.
And I'm not talking about being light, literally a correlation to my ftp being higher.

Looking at my last 3 sessions:

Endurance - 69 average (2.5 hours)
VO2 max - 76 average (1hr)
Sweetspot - 71 average (1hr)

Did your injury creep up on you slowly overtime, or just start giving you issues one day?
Is Labrum a back muscle?

What kind of cadences were you riding at in ERG mode?

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? ...

Just my experience, and probably flawed but.... If I tire my output and/or cadence will drop. ERG maintains power so it just gets harder if your cadence drops. Until injury.

Yes, if you start to get into that issue, you need to get out of erg mode, you're already in trouble and will never get back to power.
...

This is when the macho mindset comes into play.
And fails.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Within ~2 weeks numbers ought to be very similar, all things being reasonably equal. Keeping hydrated indoors on harder rides is so important, as is a good fan

It has just never worked that way for me unfortunately, I have a fan and keep hydrated and that makes no difference to power output. I have accepted my power on a turbo is just lower than outdoors.