ERG mode bad for you??

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Damage is a result of excessive load over time. Excessive load occurs when you struggle to sustain that power output and as a result your cadence drops.

Isn't there also some theory around the inertia of a turbo means you are utilising more of your muscle groups, putting stress/load over an even larger area and increasing risk of injury?

ugo.santalucia

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? ...

Just my experience, and probably flawed but.... If I tire my output and/or cadence will drop. ERG maintains power so it just gets harder if your cadence drops. Until injury.

Yes, if you start to get into that issue, you need to get out of erg mode, you're already in trouble and will never get back to power.
...

This is when the macho mindset comes into play.
And fails.

The macho mindset is a gamble… if you don’t do those killer sessions, you will not reach the numbers that might win you a race, but if you do, you risk injury… nothing comes free

kingstongraham

ugo.santalucia said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? ...

Just my experience, and probably flawed but.... If I tire my output and/or cadence will drop. ERG maintains power so it just gets harder if your cadence drops. Until injury.

Yes, if you start to get into that issue, you need to get out of erg mode, you're already in trouble and will never get back to power.
...

This is when the macho mindset comes into play.
And fails.

The macho mindset is a gamble… if you don’t do those killer sessions, you will not reach the numbers that might win you a race, but if you do, you risk injury… nothing comes free

No, once you get into the death spiral of dropping cadence -> increased resistance -> dropping cadence -> increased resistance you've already binned that interval, whether you accept it or not. It's like doing a hill climb that is getting steeper and steeper, but you're stuck in your highest gear. It's not the session you planned.

pblakeney

ugo.santalucia said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? ...

Just my experience, and probably flawed but.... If I tire my output and/or cadence will drop. ERG maintains power so it just gets harder if your cadence drops. Until injury.

Yes, if you start to get into that issue, you need to get out of erg mode, you're already in trouble and will never get back to power.
...

This is when the macho mindset comes into play.
And fails.

The macho mindset is a gamble… if you don’t do those killer sessions, you will not reach the numbers that might win you a race, but if you do, you risk injury… nothing comes free

Helps if you don't race. No need to train to that level. 😉
I suspect the majority don't need to. Those who need to, need to gamble.

daniel_b

I will shortly be going into my -1.5c garage to complete this 6X6 sweet spot interval session.


I will bore you ALL with my cadences for each one later today

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I will shortly be going into my -1.5c garage to complete this 6X6 sweet spot interval session.

Garage?? I genuinely thought you would have had a custom built indoor training room Dan!

daniel_b

I'd very much love one @MidlandsGrimpeur2 , but the garage is generally up to the task, especially once I replaced the roof for something that was watertight!
Also has the added advantage of not waking the household on very early sessions - I chose not to today, as I think it would have been about -5 in there at 6am, and I've found any session at or over threshold in those temperatures I was really struggling with.

I do have two big eff off fans as well, and 100% agree they are key to indoor training.

wallace_and_gromit

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Within ~2 weeks numbers ought to be very similar, all things being reasonably equal. Keeping hydrated indoors on harder rides is so important, as is a good fan

It has just never worked that way for me unfortunately, I have a fan and keep hydrated and that makes no difference to power output. I have accepted my power on a turbo is just lower than outdoors.

That's interesting. My performance indoors is far superior to that outdoors, both in terms of recorded watts and performance relative to club mates.

Indoors, I can maintain 320 watts for the work sections on a 5 * 5 minutes / 1 minute recovery session. Outdoors, anything over 300 watts for more than a minute or so would leave my legs burning. I think I'm a bit of a "flat track bully" tbh. Everything is very controllable indoors, whereas outdoors, sudden steep pitches, changes in road surface, blasts of wind etc. can send me "into the red" at which point it's "game over".

But I enjoy both, subject to the appropriate weather conditions, and both help me in my primary training objective - burning off enough calories to enable me to eat pretty much what I like without bursting out of my trousers!

daniel_b

wallace_and_gromit said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Within ~2 weeks numbers ought to be very similar, all things being reasonably equal. Keeping hydrated indoors on harder rides is so important, as is a good fan

It has just never worked that way for me unfortunately, I have a fan and keep hydrated and that makes no difference to power output. I have accepted my power on a turbo is just lower than outdoors.

That's interesting. My performance indoors is far superior to that outdoors, both in terms of recorded watts and performance relative to club mates.

Indoors, I can maintain 320 watts for the work sections on a 5 * 5 minutes / 1 minute recovery session. Outdoors, anything over 300 watts for more than a minute or so would leave my legs burning. I think I'm a bit of a "flat track bully" tbh. Everything is very controllable indoors, whereas outdoors, sudden steep pitches, changes in road surface, blasts of wind etc. can send me "into the red" at which point it's "game over".

But I enjoy both, subject to the appropriate weather conditions, and both help me in my primary training objective - burning off enough calories to enable me to eat pretty much what I like without bursting out of my trousers!

I have found my outdoor figures can be slightly better than my indoor ones.
However I believe I ride what is known to be one of the more accurate trainers, a Tacx Neo.
The Tacx vortex I used previous to that read approx 10% higher, so it was a fair wake up call when I changed across
@MidlandsGrimpeur2 any chance your turbo is reading low......?
Have you only ever used the same trainer - and do you have any power pedals or a power crank you could fit to carry out a comparison?

yellowv2

“I was under the impression that some low cadence 'strength work' is good overall, as otherwise bone strength (density?) can suffer.”

Unfortunately low cadence work doesn’t qualify as strength work in this regard. To benefit bone strength/density it needs to proper strength closed chain (ie weights gym type training) work.
Cycling is open chain ie no ground resistance, running is closed chain ie ground impact.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Indoors, I can maintain 320 watts for the work sections on a 5 * 5 minutes / 1 minute recovery session. Outdoors, anything over 300 watts for more than a minute or so would leave my legs burning. I think I'm a bit of a "flat track bully" tbh. Everything is very controllable indoors, whereas outdoors, sudden steep pitches, changes in road surface, blasts of wind etc. can send me "into the red" at which point it's "game over"

I seem to be the complete opposite; gradients, head wind etc. seem relatively easy for me to power through. I think it must be something to do with the physics of inertia but my knowledge on the subject is severely limited. My riding style, physiology etc. just seems better suited to changes in conditions and riding a moving bike. Stationary turbo trainers are not my forte!

@MidlandsGrimpeur2 any chance your turbo is reading low......?

Not sure Dan, I have never actually used my PM to compare the figures. Will do so this week. It is a wahoo kickr so I assume it is accurate. Only had a bog standard turbo prior to that with no power, but that was always far harder than road riding. I used to use HR without power and could never get my HR much above threshold without blowing up.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

I usually swap from using the turbo power meter to my 4iiii crank power meter as the outdoor season approaches, to know what numbers to expect in the real world.

That means I'll have to switch out the axle adaptors in a month or so for the newish H3 I've been using this winter with my hybrid, instead of my road bike, unless I find my "treacle resistance" Direto tolerable.

Different power meters will give you at least slightly different power numbers, especially if they read from a different position in the system. On a clean drivetrain, a crank meter should read ~3% higher than readings from the hub on a turbo.

Last spring my Direto's power went really wonky, up to ~17% higher than my 4iiii on a bad day, iirc!

Dorset_Boy

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Indoors, I can maintain 320 watts for the work sections on a 5 * 5 minutes / 1 minute recovery session. Outdoors, anything over 300 watts for more than a minute or so would leave my legs burning. I think I'm a bit of a "flat track bully" tbh. Everything is very controllable indoors, whereas outdoors, sudden steep pitches, changes in road surface, blasts of wind etc. can send me "into the red" at which point it's "game over"

I seem to be the complete opposite; gradients, head wind etc. seem relatively easy for me to power through. I think it must be something to do with the physics of inertia but my knowledge on the subject is severely limited. My riding style, physiology etc. just seems better suited to changes in conditions and riding a moving bike. Stationary turbo trainers are not my forte!

@MidlandsGrimpeur2 any chance your turbo is reading low......?

Not sure Dan, I have never actually used my PM to compare the figures. Will do so this week. It is a wahoo kickr so I assume it is accurate. Only had a bog standard turbo prior to that with no power, but that was always far harder than road riding. I used to use HR without power and could never get my HR much above threshold without blowing up.

I have a Kickr and its readings are very similar to my Favero pedals.
I tend to be willing to go much harder indoors than out, as if I blow up, it's only a 20m walk back from the shed to the house. But equally i don't tend to suffer in heat unlike many.

I don't use ERG having had a few death spirals early on, and hated the feel generally. My Zwifting is made up of pace partner rides, group rides and some races, which gives a good mix of intensities. It seems to work for my IRL riding.

joeyhalloran

Dorset_Boy said:

I have a Kickr and its readings are very similar to my Favero pedals.
I tend to be willing to go much harder indoors than out, as if I blow up, it's only a 20m walk back from the shed to the house. But equally i don't tend to suffer in heat unlike many.

I don't use ERG having had a few death spirals early on, and hated the feel generally. My Zwifting is made up of pace partner rides, group rides and some races, which gives a good mix of intensities. It seems to work for my IRL riding.

At first I read that as a 20 minute walk, was thinking "Blimey, that's a big garden".

DeVlaeminck

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? That said my experience of it is that at higher power levels - near FTP - it feels far harder than in non erg mode like riding through treacle . I assumed this was either a trainer fault or used error but my response was to just stop using it.

It's an interesting theory - I'm not entirely convinced just because I'd need to see why erg mode was different to just doing a lot of trainer work but with the growth of zwift etc if it's a thing it's worth investigation.

That’s not the theory.
Damage is a result of excessive load over time. Excessive load occurs when you struggle to sustain that power output and as a result your cadence drops.
Which is different from doing 30 seconds on a massive gear

Then why is this related to erg mode ? I've done frequent hard rides where I was hanging on - races, chain gangs, hard training rides - as well as zwift races and long periods of time when I did 2*20s as hard as I could (with hindsight possibly harder than ideal) on a turbo or wattbike as a training staple - why would erg mode be different in terms of causing injury?

DeVlaeminck

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Within ~2 weeks numbers ought to be very similar, all things being reasonably equal. Keeping hydrated indoors on harder rides is so important, as is a good fan

It has just never worked that way for me unfortunately, I have a fan and keep hydrated and that makes no difference to power output. I have accepted my power on a turbo is just lower than outdoors.

Power measured on the same device? I don't find my power that different - I find I can hit higher peak sprint watts outdoors but anything I could sustain for a minute plus is similar.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Power measured on the same device? I don't find my power that different - I find I can hit higher peak sprint watts outdoors but anything I could sustain for a minute plus is similar

No, Wahoo kickr power reading (indoors) versus a quarq PM (outdoors). I do have to factor in that power outdoors will not be a consistent power output as even a 5min interval at 300 watts could include 20-30 seconds at 400 watts followed by 30 seconds at 200-250 watts over a hilly bit of road.

It may be that the consistent power of an interval in ERG mode is just harder for me, rather than the up and down nature of an interval outdoors where I can surge and recover within the same interval.

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck said:

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? That said my experience of it is that at higher power levels - near FTP - it feels far harder than in non erg mode like riding through treacle . I assumed this was either a trainer fault or used error but my response was to just stop using it.

It's an interesting theory - I'm not entirely convinced just because I'd need to see why erg mode was different to just doing a lot of trainer work but with the growth of zwift etc if it's a thing it's worth investigation.

That’s not the theory.
Damage is a result of excessive load over time. Excessive load occurs when you struggle to sustain that power output and as a result your cadence drops.
Which is different from doing 30 seconds on a massive gear

Then why is this related to erg mode ? I've done frequent hard rides where I was hanging on - races, chain gangs, hard training rides - as well as zwift races and long periods of time when I did 2*20s as hard as I could (with hindsight possibly harder than ideal) on a turbo or wattbike as a training staple - why would erg mode be different in terms of causing injury?

It's been said above, ERG mode forces you to a given power output and when you are getting fatigued, you inevitably turn the pedals slower.
If you are not committed to a given power output, that can be adjusted, by shifting gear... pedalling faster... if you shift gear in ERG mode, 2 seconds later you are in exactly the same place

twotoebenny

daniel_b said:

I'd very much love one @MidlandsGrimpeur2 , but the garage is generally up to the task, especially once I replaced the roof for something that was watertight!
Also has the added advantage of not waking the household on very early sessions - I chose not to today, as I think it would have been about -5 in there at 6am, and I've found any session at or over threshold in those temperatures I was really struggling with.

I do have two big eff off fans as well, and 100% agree they are key to indoor training.

is it painted yellow and black?

daniel_b

twotoebenny said:

daniel_b said:

I'd very much love one @MidlandsGrimpeur2 , but the garage is generally up to the task, especially once I replaced the roof for something that was watertight!
Also has the added advantage of not waking the household on very early sessions - I chose not to today, as I think it would have been about -5 in there at 6am, and I've found any session at or over threshold in those temperatures I was really struggling with.

I do have two big eff off fans as well, and 100% agree they are key to indoor training.

is it painted yellow and black?

The garage? Sadly not, it is a garden friendly light green, although I did manage to get a british racing green roller door fitted
I did contemplate twin yellow stripes down it, but decided against - I think the mechanism would have chewed it up anyway

daniel_b

daniel_b said:

I will shortly be going into my -1.5c garage to complete this 6X6 sweet spot interval session.


I will bore you ALL with my cadences for each one later today

Well I did promise - completed with no thought to this thread, so just rode it normally, and ignored any cadence suggestions or drills from TR, as I have done for a few years now.

1. 76
   
2. 69 (No sniggering at the back there thankyou)
   
3. 66
   
4. 66
   
5. 65
   
6. 66
   

Interested to hear peoples opinions on whether that is too low / a ticking time bomb

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Typically 90-100rpm here, unless my legs are really dead, then I might drop closer to a ~75rpm average.

DeVlaeminck

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? That said my experience of it is that at higher power levels - near FTP - it feels far harder than in non erg mode like riding through treacle . I assumed this was either a trainer fault or used error but my response was to just stop using it.

It's an interesting theory - I'm not entirely convinced just because I'd need to see why erg mode was different to just doing a lot of trainer work but with the growth of zwift etc if it's a thing it's worth investigation.

That’s not the theory.
Damage is a result of excessive load over time. Excessive load occurs when you struggle to sustain that power output and as a result your cadence drops.
Which is different from doing 30 seconds on a massive gear

Then why is this related to erg mode ? I've done frequent hard rides where I was hanging on - races, chain gangs, hard training rides - as well as zwift races and long periods of time when I did 2*20s as hard as I could (with hindsight possibly harder than ideal) on a turbo or wattbike as a training staple - why would erg mode be different in terms of causing injury?

It's been said above, ERG mode forces you to a given power output and when you are getting fatigued, you inevitably turn the pedals slower.
If you are not committed to a given power output, that can be adjusted, by shifting gear... pedalling faster... if you shift gear in ERG mode, 2 seconds later you are in exactly the same place

I disagree Ugo. It can't force you to produce power you can't produce.

If I do a 20 minute ftp test that is the most power I can produce for 20 minutes - it should make no difference if I'm in erg mode or not. The same with a chain gang - I'm "forced" to produce the power to keep up - if fatigue means I pedal slower then I have to stick it in a bigger gear in the same way erg mode increases resistance.

pblakeney

DeVlaeminck said:

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? That said my experience of it is that at higher power levels - near FTP - it feels far harder than in non erg mode like riding through treacle . I assumed this was either a trainer fault or used error but my response was to just stop using it.

It's an interesting theory - I'm not entirely convinced just because I'd need to see why erg mode was different to just doing a lot of trainer work but with the growth of zwift etc if it's a thing it's worth investigation.

That’s not the theory.
Damage is a result of excessive load over time. Excessive load occurs when you struggle to sustain that power output and as a result your cadence drops.
Which is different from doing 30 seconds on a massive gear

Then why is this related to erg mode ? I've done frequent hard rides where I was hanging on - races, chain gangs, hard training rides - as well as zwift races and long periods of time when I did 2*20s as hard as I could (with hindsight possibly harder than ideal) on a turbo or wattbike as a training staple - why would erg mode be different in terms of causing injury?

It's been said above, ERG mode forces you to a given power output and when you are getting fatigued, you inevitably turn the pedals slower.
If you are not committed to a given power output, that can be adjusted, by shifting gear... pedalling faster... if you shift gear in ERG mode, 2 seconds later you are in exactly the same place

I disagree Ugo. It can't force you to produce power you can't produce.

...

The trainer sets the power according to your FTP/Power. If your legs can't cope then you come to a halt. If this occurs then the rider really should consider lowering the FTP/Power.

redvision

It's not that you can't cope, it's that it tempts you to push out more watts than you normally would/ should, and probably in a way not natural - due to the bike position being fixed - which puts the body under even more stress and ultimately risks injury.

wallace_and_gromit

DeVlaeminck said:

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? That said my experience of it is that at higher power levels - near FTP - it feels far harder than in non erg mode like riding through treacle . I assumed this was either a trainer fault or used error but my response was to just stop using it.

It's an interesting theory - I'm not entirely convinced just because I'd need to see why erg mode was different to just doing a lot of trainer work but with the growth of zwift etc if it's a thing it's worth investigation.

That’s not the theory.
Damage is a result of excessive load over time. Excessive load occurs when you struggle to sustain that power output and as a result your cadence drops.
Which is different from doing 30 seconds on a massive gear

Then why is this related to erg mode ? I've done frequent hard rides where I was hanging on - races, chain gangs, hard training rides - as well as zwift races and long periods of time when I did 2*20s as hard as I could (with hindsight possibly harder than ideal) on a turbo or wattbike as a training staple - why would erg mode be different in terms of causing injury?

It's been said above, ERG mode forces you to a given power output and when you are getting fatigued, you inevitably turn the pedals slower.
If you are not committed to a given power output, that can be adjusted, by shifting gear... pedalling faster... if you shift gear in ERG mode, 2 seconds later you are in exactly the same place

It can't force you to produce power you can't produce.

Truer words have never been spoken!

redvision

wallace_and_gromit said:

DeVlaeminck said:

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So the theory is that riding at low cadence at high watts is causing damage ?

I thought you were meant to keep the cadence up in erg mode ? That said my experience of it is that at higher power levels - near FTP - it feels far harder than in non erg mode like riding through treacle . I assumed this was either a trainer fault or used error but my response was to just stop using it.

It's an interesting theory - I'm not entirely convinced just because I'd need to see why erg mode was different to just doing a lot of trainer work but with the growth of zwift etc if it's a thing it's worth investigation.

That’s not the theory.
Damage is a result of excessive load over time. Excessive load occurs when you struggle to sustain that power output and as a result your cadence drops.
Which is different from doing 30 seconds on a massive gear

Then why is this related to erg mode ? I've done frequent hard rides where I was hanging on - races, chain gangs, hard training rides - as well as zwift races and long periods of time when I did 2*20s as hard as I could (with hindsight possibly harder than ideal) on a turbo or wattbike as a training staple - why would erg mode be different in terms of causing injury?

It's been said above, ERG mode forces you to a given power output and when you are getting fatigued, you inevitably turn the pedals slower.
If you are not committed to a given power output, that can be adjusted, by shifting gear... pedalling faster... if you shift gear in ERG mode, 2 seconds later you are in exactly the same place

It can't force you to produce power you can't produce.

Truer words have never been spoken!

But it can tempt you to push beyond your limits. For example say you set it to 300w which is your limit (ftp), when you fatigue you will still be able to put out that number but your cadence will gradually fall and you will end up putting your body under more stress which leads to soft tissue damage and injury

DeVlaeminck

We disagree.

I don't buy that you can work harder in erg mode - that's the bottom line.

pblakeney

DeVlaeminck said:

We disagree.

I don't buy that you can work harder in erg mode - that's the bottom line.

I think things are just being worded differently.
You can set a higher ERG than you are physically capable of sustaining.

wallace_and_gromit

Deleted.