'Ouses, Greenbelt and stuff
Comments
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I was referring to why people today forget about how unpopular older buildings were as they are simply unaware. For clarity, 1963 was 60 years ago so most weren't born.rjsterry said:
Or rather why it was knocked down.pblakeney said:
That's cos a lot of it was knocked down in the 60s.rjsterry said:
...
People forget just how deeply unpopular Victorian and Georgian architecture was in the mid 20th century.
Out of sight, out of mind.
It's not that different from 18th century builders putting a Palladian front on a rather unfashionable 16th century building.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.0 -
Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.0 -
Personally I can't stand the stuff. I'd rather it was pulled down and replaced with quality, energy efficient buildings but using the same footprint as before.rjsterry said:
I think I have posted this before, but this was the plan for Bath: dual carriageway around the back of the Royal Crescent.
People forget just how deeply unpopular Victorian and Georgian architecture was in the mid 20th century.
My brother-in-law lives in a Georgian terraced townhouse. Would I want to live in it? Never. Heating bills are astronomical now. He can't afford to heat the whole house so just heats the rooms he needs. Most rooms are cold and unwelcoming. Thin, single skinned walls. Single glazed windows that require constant maintainance to stop them from rotting away. Damp cellars that were impossible to damp-proof. Fireplaces you can no longer use due to not allowing coal etc.
The majority of British housing stock really is not fit for purpose and retained all in the name of historical interest and nostalgia. The Georgians were modern thinking and trashed a load of Roman remains in the name of progress. The Victorians trashed a load of Georgian stuff in the name of progress. The 50-60's trashed a load of Victorian stuff in the name of progress. Each was better built and more efficient than the last. Yet somehow we've come to a stop?
Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.
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Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
...1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
How about we loosen up the planning regs so that developers can design houses to suit demand and are popular (rather than just affordable...) and design it that way?
The look of the house shouldn't be centrally planned, surely. One man's stunning georgian terrace is another man's drafty sh!thole.0 -
Define demand. Demand for buying property is not the same as demand for housing.rick_chasey said:How about we loosen up the planning regs so that developers can design houses to suit demand and are popular (rather than just affordable...) and design it that way?
The look of the house shouldn't be centrally planned, surely. One man's stunning georgian terrace is another man's drafty sh!thole.
Demand from the home buyer is filtered by all sorts of things including what construction type, their lender will agree to lend on. I'd suggest aesthetic preferences for Victorian*, Georgian or any other particular style - which from a developer's point of view are just applied decoration and have no impact on the shape and size of the building and its rooms - comes way down the list after location, size, local amenities, etc. So there is very little feedback from customers in the first place for a developer to determine what decorative style they should apply to maximize sales.
By the way, Georgian houses were built without bathrooms so I'd suggest they are dub-optimal for modern life. Inevitably one of the principal rooms has to be converted to an oversized bathroom or an undersized room is added on the back as a closet wing. They also have a lot of steep stairs by virtue of their smallish floor plans and high ceilings, so not great for anyone with mobility issues.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
So the way i see it, as I wrote above is that right now, housing supply is so short people will put up with more or less anything as long as doesn't fall over and they can afford it.rjsterry said:
Define demand. Demand for buying property is not the same as demand for housing.rick_chasey said:How about we loosen up the planning regs so that developers can design houses to suit demand and are popular (rather than just affordable...) and design it that way?
The look of the house shouldn't be centrally planned, surely. One man's stunning georgian terrace is another man's drafty sh!thole.
But, ideally, with enough supply, there will be a bit of developer competition and they'll actually need to design the kind of houses people will want to buy, as otherwise the punters will go buy a better looking, better put together property etc.0 -
You haven't worked with developers. The more standardised something is the cheaper it is for them to build and therefore more profitable (slight generalisation, there are some good ones like Spitfire who do consider design and context with their surrounding). The larger ones (who are generally the worst offenders for Lego housing) have the financial clout to purchase the land so can easily deal with anyone trying to beat them on the finished product.rick_chasey said:
So the way i see it, as I wrote above is that right now, housing supply is so short people will put up with more or less anything as long as doesn't fall over and they can afford it.rjsterry said:
Define demand. Demand for buying property is not the same as demand for housing.rick_chasey said:How about we loosen up the planning regs so that developers can design houses to suit demand and are popular (rather than just affordable...) and design it that way?
The look of the house shouldn't be centrally planned, surely. One man's stunning georgian terrace is another man's drafty sh!thole.
But, ideally, with enough supply, there will be a bit of developer competition and they'll actually need to design the kind of houses people will want to buy, as otherwise the punters will go buy a better looking, better put together property etc.
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Thanks for the nerdery. Given that two of my 4x grandparents carried on trades in central Bristol (inc Broad Street) and a great grandparent at Temple Street, I ought to have done more reading about pre-war Bristol.rjsterry said:
Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.
I do remember the smell of the Courage Brewery wafting over school in the 1970s... it was where they carried on brewing real ales Courage Best and Directors.0 -
The problem I see with this is that for there to be genuine competition for customers there must be some houses that don't sell. That is extraordinarily wasteful, not to mention pretty much guaranteed to entrench the most conservative, risk averse approach from developers.rick_chasey said:
So the way i see it, as I wrote above is that right now, housing supply is so short people will put up with more or less anything as long as doesn't fall over and they can afford it.rjsterry said:
Define demand. Demand for buying property is not the same as demand for housing.rick_chasey said:How about we loosen up the planning regs so that developers can design houses to suit demand and are popular (rather than just affordable...) and design it that way?
The look of the house shouldn't be centrally planned, surely. One man's stunning georgian terrace is another man's drafty sh!thole.
But, ideally, with enough supply, there will be a bit of developer competition and they'll actually need to design the kind of houses people will want to buy, as otherwise the punters will go buy a better looking, better put together property etc.
I would also remove 'won't fall over' from your definition.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/4732/production/_126162281_3dmap1.jpg&tbnid=2P548OtUASlLcM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-62349969&docid=pWa-VW6EUaglHM&w=976&h=549&source=sh/x/im/m4/2briantrumpet said:
Thanks for the nerdery. Given that two of my 4x grandparents carried on trades in central Bristol (inc Broad Street) and a great grandparent at Temple Street, I ought to have done more reading about pre-war Bristol.rjsterry said:
Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.
I do remember the smell of the Courage Brewery wafting over school in the 1970s... it was where they carried on brewing real ales Courage Best and Directors.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/4732/production/_126162281_3dmap1.jpg&tbnid=2P548OtUASlLcM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-62349969&docid=pWa-VW6EUaglHM&w=976&h=549&source=sh/x/im/m4/2briantrumpet said:
Thanks for the nerdery. Given that two of my 4x grandparents carried on trades in central Bristol (inc Broad Street) and a great grandparent at Temple Street, I ought to have done more reading about pre-war Bristol.rjsterry said:
Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.
I do remember the smell of the Courage Brewery wafting over school in the 1970s... it was where they carried on brewing real ales Courage Best and Directors.
What was crammed in on that site is mind-boggling now.
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It is. The old castle moat was built over and turned into a tunnel which you could row a boat through.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/4732/production/_126162281_3dmap1.jpg&tbnid=2P548OtUASlLcM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-62349969&docid=pWa-VW6EUaglHM&w=976&h=549&source=sh/x/im/m4/2briantrumpet said:
Thanks for the nerdery. Given that two of my 4x grandparents carried on trades in central Bristol (inc Broad Street) and a great grandparent at Temple Street, I ought to have done more reading about pre-war Bristol.rjsterry said:
Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.
I do remember the smell of the Courage Brewery wafting over school in the 1970s... it was where they carried on brewing real ales Courage Best and Directors.
What was crammed in on that site is mind-boggling now.
He's on Facebook if you are interested.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Who 'he'?rjsterry said:
It is. The old castle moat was built over and turned into a tunnel which you could row a boat through.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/4732/production/_126162281_3dmap1.jpg&tbnid=2P548OtUASlLcM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-62349969&docid=pWa-VW6EUaglHM&w=976&h=549&source=sh/x/im/m4/2briantrumpet said:
Thanks for the nerdery. Given that two of my 4x grandparents carried on trades in central Bristol (inc Broad Street) and a great grandparent at Temple Street, I ought to have done more reading about pre-war Bristol.rjsterry said:
Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.
I do remember the smell of the Courage Brewery wafting over school in the 1970s... it was where they carried on brewing real ales Courage Best and Directors.
What was crammed in on that site is mind-boggling now.
He's on Facebook if you are interested.0 -
The old castle moatbriantrumpet said:
Who 'he'?rjsterry said:
It is. The old castle moat was built over and turned into a tunnel which you could row a boat through.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/4732/production/_126162281_3dmap1.jpg&tbnid=2P548OtUASlLcM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-62349969&docid=pWa-VW6EUaglHM&w=976&h=549&source=sh/x/im/m4/2briantrumpet said:
Thanks for the nerdery. Given that two of my 4x grandparents carried on trades in central Bristol (inc Broad Street) and a great grandparent at Temple Street, I ought to have done more reading about pre-war Bristol.rjsterry said:
Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.
I do remember the smell of the Courage Brewery wafting over school in the 1970s... it was where they carried on brewing real ales Courage Best and Directors.
What was crammed in on that site is mind-boggling now.
He's on Facebook if you are interested.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Jeremy Horton, the guy who is/has modelled the whole area in SketchUp.briantrumpet said:
Who 'he'?rjsterry said:
It is. The old castle moat was built over and turned into a tunnel which you could row a boat through.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/4732/production/_126162281_3dmap1.jpg&tbnid=2P548OtUASlLcM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-62349969&docid=pWa-VW6EUaglHM&w=976&h=549&source=sh/x/im/m4/2briantrumpet said:
Thanks for the nerdery. Given that two of my 4x grandparents carried on trades in central Bristol (inc Broad Street) and a great grandparent at Temple Street, I ought to have done more reading about pre-war Bristol.rjsterry said:
Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.
I do remember the smell of the Courage Brewery wafting over school in the 1970s... it was where they carried on brewing real ales Courage Best and Directors.
What was crammed in on that site is mind-boggling now.
He's on Facebook if you are interested.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0294fX7VYVzRWFGPa1f7oC2ciFQDc5VN3bg5GAR9AouYrAchyE1isiGUuvgkQk9hEol&id=5116088022388891985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
Jeremy Horton, the guy who is/has modelled the whole area in SketchUp.briantrumpet said:
Who 'he'?rjsterry said:
It is. The old castle moat was built over and turned into a tunnel which you could row a boat through.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/4732/production/_126162281_3dmap1.jpg&tbnid=2P548OtUASlLcM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-62349969&docid=pWa-VW6EUaglHM&w=976&h=549&source=sh/x/im/m4/2briantrumpet said:
Thanks for the nerdery. Given that two of my 4x grandparents carried on trades in central Bristol (inc Broad Street) and a great grandparent at Temple Street, I ought to have done more reading about pre-war Bristol.rjsterry said:
Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.
I do remember the smell of the Courage Brewery wafting over school in the 1970s... it was where they carried on brewing real ales Courage Best and Directors.
What was crammed in on that site is mind-boggling now.
He's on Facebook if you are interested.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0294fX7VYVzRWFGPa1f7oC2ciFQDc5VN3bg5GAR9AouYrAchyE1isiGUuvgkQk9hEol&id=511608802238889
Thanks.
This chap then... 🤣
0 -
Err, he looked different in the picture I saw.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Ha, well that's what the FB link from your link gave me. Maybe his professional profile image is, well, more professional.rjsterry said:Err, he looked different in the picture I saw.
It's probably just as well that I don't have to preserve a terribly sober professional image, as a raspberry blower.0 -
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
Appears to be. What can I say? Bristolians are an odd lot 😁.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
Appears to be. What can I say? Bristolians are an odd lot 😁.
Oi!
OTOH, you might have a point, given my recent trumpet turbo exploits.0 -
Speaking as one myself.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:Appears to be. What can I say? Bristolians are an odd lot 😁.
Oi!
OTOH, you might have a point, given my recent trumpet turbo exploits.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Thanks for confirming that you have 4x grandparents. If it was 3x grandparents, or 2x, I'd be concerned about 6x toes on one foot.briantrumpet said:
Thanks for the nerdery. Given that two of my 4x grandparents carried on trades in central Bristol (inc Broad Street) and a great grandparent at Temple Street, I ought to have done more reading about pre-war Bristol.rjsterry said:
Bristol nerdery: Broadmead is an interesting one. The main shopping area used to be around Castle Street in what is now Castle Park, centred on the original medieval crossroads where the streets connecting the bridges over the Avon and Frome intersect with the streets connecting the docks to the long demolished castle.briantrumpet said:Pross said:
If you take away sentimentality it makes sense for housing to be regularly demolished and rebuilt to suit the demands of the current generation. Far too much stuff seems to get listed and basically impossible to adapt to modern use. I find old buildings far more interesting and aesthetically appealing as a rule but from a practical point of view demolition and rebuilding regularly is the way to go. I suspect if we started again even the location of many towns and cities would change.briantrumpet said:@rjsterry Have you ever looked at the blog Demolition Exeter? It's well worth a look.
I'm sure the theme could be copied for most cities, but it's horrifically eye-opening on how little value was placed on 'old buildings' in Exeter from before the Victorian times onwards by town planners. I can only assume the general public didn't have any particular regard for the old buildings either, given how much has been destroyed in the name of 'progress' with nary a word of dissent, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, a good one for debate. Exeter is certainly constrained by its layout: radial roads still based on Roman roads converging on a single river crossing. The contrast with 'modern' towns based on grid layout couldn't be starker. Taken to its extreme, your suggestion would suggest that flattening and rebuilding (probably not on a river) would the logical solution.
Actually, Exeter centre would have looked similar to old York, had not much of the medieval city been half-timbered houses which had degraded into slums by the 19th century. They didn't take much tearing down. The Roman/medieval gatehouses were rather more resistant, I suspect.
The trouble with the flatten-&-rebuild strategy is that you then get stuck with stuff that itself dates quickly... Hitler did his bit in Exeter, and it got stuck with very utilitarian brick buildings of the 50's, and think Birmingham's Bullring or Bristol's Broadmead for large-scale soon-hated rebuilds.
The area was actually very mixed with a school, two churches, housing, a brewery and various other industries all crammed in around narrow streets. From a town planning you can see why having everything cheek by jowel in buildings of variable quality was thought to be less than ideal. It was severely damaged in the blitz and the local authority took the opportunity to tidy things up. There was significant resistance from shopkeepers but the decision was taken to create a new shopping precinct in Broadmead, surrounded by the newly completed inner ring road. The Castle Street area was promised as a new cultural quarter but after years as car parking was eventually landscaped as a park. With only shops and only easily accessible by car, Broadmead was almost deserted after 5 o'clock and on Sundays, so it's not that much of a surprise that it was somewhat less loved than the old Castle Street area.
I do remember the smell of the Courage Brewery wafting over school in the 1970s... it was where they carried on brewing real ales Courage Best and Directors.0 -
Hang on. Isn't trumpet turbo a gastrointestinal condition?briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:Appears to be. What can I say? Bristolians are an odd lot 😁.
Oi!
OTOH, you might have a point, given my recent trumpet turbo exploits.0 -
First.Aspect said:
Hang on. Isn't trumpet turbo a gastrointestinal condition?briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:Appears to be. What can I say? Bristolians are an odd lot 😁.
Oi!
OTOH, you might have a point, given my recent trumpet turbo exploits.
Depends how you sit on the saddle when you blow.0
