The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)
Comments
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A lot this is the stuff you see the Dutch do a lot. Making the environment naturally slow everyone down. Sharper corners, no delineation in road surface between road and pedestrian, where they raise the road to pedestrian level, and remove any additional lanes and replaces with bike lanes etc.kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
eg.
you can see that this road used to be 2 lanes each way.
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How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Approach with extreme caution. The createstreets account is run by one of these reactionary trad types that posts endless AI generated pseudo-Edwardian townscapes as 'what we should be doing'. He's also posted a lot of ill-informed bollox about RAAC trying to piggy back his 'isn't modernity awful' nonsense there for extra coverage.kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.0 -
rick_chasey said:
A lot this is the stuff you see the Dutch do a lot. Making the environment naturally slow everyone down. Sharper corners, no delineation in road surface between road and pedestrian, where they raise the road to pedestrian level, and remove any additional lanes and replaces with bike lanes etc.kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
eg.
you can see that this road used to be 2 lanes each way.
I wouldn't be surprised if, ironically, the average speed of cars goes up once those who have worked out that cycling or walking is easier have left their cars at home.
And I suspect another knock-on is that people are simply less likely to own a car in the first place. There is a planning application in Exeter Quay (can't remember if it's yet been approved) for a largish block of appartments with a very limited number of parking spaces... the nimbies are saying the planning should be/should have been refused on that basis, without considering that, firstly, people living right in the heart of the city might not need a car, and secondly, that the free market will decide whether people want to buy flats without parking spaces: if the developer is happy to take the risk that lack of parking will depress prices, that's not for the planners to make a judgement on.0 -
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Potentially any piece of straight-ish road with decent visibility is 'designed' to let cars go 'too fast'. So following the logic above, should they noy be putting measures like that everywhere?kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Why is that road so wide with the middle lane basically unused? Could easily create a little bike lane there, and even some actual parking spots for the road, put some trees down etc etc.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.0 -
If an HGV driver couldn't manoeuvre that revised junction then they shouldn't be driving an HGV.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
It's also a much more peaceful place to be, given the density.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
A lot this is the stuff you see the Dutch do a lot. Making the environment naturally slow everyone down. Sharper corners, no delineation in road surface between road and pedestrian, where they raise the road to pedestrian level, and remove any additional lanes and replaces with bike lanes etc.kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
eg.
you can see that this road used to be 2 lanes each way.
I wouldn't be surprised if, ironically, the average speed of cars goes up once those who have worked out that cycling or walking is easier have left their cars at home.
And I suspect another knock-on is that people are simply less likely to own a car in the first place. There is a planning application in Exeter Quay (can't remember if it's yet been approved) for a largish block of appartments with a very limited number of parking spaces... the nimbies are saying the planning should be/should have been refused on that basis, without considering that, firstly, people living right in the heart of the city might not need a car, and secondly, that the free market will decide whether people want to buy flats without parking spaces: if the developer is happy to take the risk that lack of parking will depress prices, that's not for the planners to make a judgement on.0 -
I assume this theoretical HGV would make it round this one just up the road.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.
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Now you're thinking along the right lines.Stevo_666 said:
Potentially any piece of straight-ish road with decent visibility is 'designed' to let cars go 'too fast'. So followimg the logic above, should they noy be putting measures like that everywhere?kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.0 -
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Here we go.
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Well sure. Will need to swing out though. Pross can chip in on vehicle turning arcs.pblakeney said:
If an HGV driver couldn't manoeuvre that revised junction then they shouldn't be driving an HGV.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
What is the Amsterdam Gold Race?rick_chasey said:
You're now beginning to understand why Amstel Gold Race is like it is.Stevo_666 said:
Potentially any piece of straight-ish road with decent visibility is 'designed' to let cars go 'too fast'. So followimg the logic above, should they noy be putting measures like that everywhere?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Not really, it's more to demonstrate the flaws in the thinking above. But I think you already know that.kingstongraham said:
Now you're thinking along the right lines.Stevo_666 said:
Potentially any piece of straight-ish road with decent visibility is 'designed' to let cars go 'too fast'. So followimg the logic above, should they noy be putting measures like that everywhere?kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You have to be jokingStevo_666 said:
What is the Amsterdam Gold Race?rick_chasey said:
You're now beginning to understand why Amstel Gold Race is like it is.Stevo_666 said:
Potentially any piece of straight-ish road with decent visibility is 'designed' to let cars go 'too fast'. So followimg the logic above, should they noy be putting measures like that everywhere?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstel_Gold_Race0 -
I can't see the flaws in the thinking. Why should a residential road not be designed to make it more difficult to drive fast?Stevo_666 said:
Not really, it's more to demonstrate the flaws in the thinking above. But I think you already know that.kingstongraham said:
Now you're thinking along the right lines.Stevo_666 said:
Potentially any piece of straight-ish road with decent visibility is 'designed' to let cars go 'too fast'. So followimg the logic above, should they noy be putting measures like that everywhere?kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.1 -
I remember reading somewhere if you need road signs to condition the traffic, it's not appropriately designed (mainly in urban areas).0
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This is pretty much what Manual For Streets and most local authority guidance suggests for new residential roads. The problem is we then get told it has to accommodate a ridiculously large refuse vehicle (that can't negotiate the existing road network to reach the site in the first place so will never go down there) and you are then left with larger radii and wider carriageways. Older junctions were all about capacity over everything but in reality if you make something like a roundabout bigger then cars go around it faster than intended and the gap becomes too short for people to pull out of the arms which becomes self-defeating.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.0 -
It's crazy - the road is a metre wider than the standard for a single carriageway 'A' road (7.3m), all the houses have driveways and yet the cars that are parked on-street are nearly all parked with most of their width on the footway.rick_chasey said:
Why is that road so wide with the middle lane basically unused? Could easily create a little bike lane there, and even some actual parking spots for the road, put some trees down etc etc.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.
The overall width including the footways is around 14.5m, that would allow a 6m carriageway with a 4m shared use cycleway on one side, proper parking bays and a 2m footway but it would cost money.0 -
Looking on Google Maps I can't see any reason why anything larger than a refuse vehicle would need to go down there, it's just a residential access road and not a bus route. Tightening it up would help ensure no HGVs are tempted to use it.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.0 -
I don't know of any issues with that particular road, it's just a random example of the way roads were designed at a particular time that was all about making it as easy as possible for car drivers, even in purely residential areas.0
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Granted it's a bit niche, but a lot of our projects involve craning large elements over houses.Pross said:
Looking on Google Maps I can't see any reason why anything larger than a refuse vehicle would need to go down there, it's just a residential access road and not a bus route. Tightening it up would help ensure no HGVs are tempted to use it.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Yeah, it's very much of its time although the street itself looks like it probably pre-dates mass car use (houses look 1930s to my untrained eye) and was probably previously a classic tree lined avenue that like many were altered in the 50s or 60s to make way for the car. Segregating everything was the big thing from the mid-60s after the publication of Traffic In Towns, Manual For Streets in 2007 tried to get designs to redress the balance and it is the basis for most new stuff but most of the old stuff gets left unless there's some funding for something like an active travel route or there is an accident record that is deemed to need intervention.1
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There's always going to be a trade off.rjsterry said:
Granted it's a bit niche, but a lot of our projects involve craning large elements over houses.Pross said:
Looking on Google Maps I can't see any reason why anything larger than a refuse vehicle would need to go down there, it's just a residential access road and not a bus route. Tightening it up would help ensure no HGVs are tempted to use it.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.
In the kind of urban design you see in Holland, it definitely takes a lot longer to get all the stuff there if you're doing a major piece of housing work, as they won't even attempt to get lorries down there.
You see it - a lot of dumping stuff on the corner of a main road and ferrying it bit by bit down.
Then again, it's standard behaviour to remove windows or even walls to get furniture in.0 -
Some stuff you can't manhandle; it needs to be craned. You can usually get the crane in there but it often needs a temporary closure of the road. There are also regs for fire appliance access - everything needs to be within 45metres of where you can drive the appliance to.rick_chasey said:
There's always going to be a trade off.rjsterry said:
Granted it's a bit niche, but a lot of our projects involve craning large elements over houses.Pross said:
Looking on Google Maps I can't see any reason why anything larger than a refuse vehicle would need to go down there, it's just a residential access road and not a bus route. Tightening it up would help ensure no HGVs are tempted to use it.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.
In the kind of urban design you see in Holland, it definitely takes a lot longer to get all the stuff there if you're doing a major piece of housing work, as they won't even attempt to get lorries down there.
You see it - a lot of dumping stuff on the corner of a main road and ferrying it bit by bit down.
Then again, it's standard behaviour to remove windows or even walls to get furniture in.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Presumably you also work in streets the larger cranes can’t access and simply amend the design so that it can be built with smaller plant?rjsterry said:
Granted it's a bit niche, but a lot of our projects involve craning large elements over houses.Pross said:
Looking on Google Maps I can't see any reason why anything larger than a refuse vehicle would need to go down there, it's just a residential access road and not a bus route. Tightening it up would help ensure no HGVs are tempted to use it.rjsterry said:
Great fun when the HGV gets stranded on that.kingstongraham said:
Like this:Stevo_666 said:
How do you design a junction to let cars go too fast?kingstongraham said:
I like the plan to get rid of all the junctions that are designed to allow cars to go too fast.davebradswmb said:
This would slow cars down turning into that junction:
Preferably with a bell bollard on the corner.
We get similar situations such as commercial sites requiring deliveries in more residential area (small supermarkets etc.) as well as the materials during construction and the maximum size of vehicle just gets covered off in a construction or servicing management plan.0 -
Pretty sure that bollards exist that can be moved as required.0
