The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

pinno

I have just been corrected; the Scots card within town limits provides free bus travel.

First.Aspect

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

super_davo said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Trams are not the solution in a day of electric buses. Unless you want to make things more expensive, dangerous and incur a decade of inconvenience during construction.

Trams carry a lot more people. The (electric) bus I was on yesterday only had seating in the rear two thirds. Also, due to the batteries, the seating is set really high leavng me getting thrown around and feeling a bit travel sick. Horses for courses really, trams / light rail for the main routes and buses for the spurs with lower demand. With both they tend to be significantly better when on their own dedicated infrastructure rather than sharing roads with other modes.

Also, as for the comment above that trams are a bad idea around cyclists, a lot of cities where cycling is a popular means of transport also have extensive tram networks.

Trolley busses don't have (large) batteries.

And seriously, you have to be realistic about the UK. It is a cycle hating culture like the US and Aus/NZ. That's a real distinction between us and other places that have things that work quite well around cycling, and nothing is going to change that in out lifetimes.

You've not been to London in the last 10 years, have you?

Can even happen here.

Yes, but I didn't like it.

Sorry whats the "it"? Trams?

Sure, it's not exactly difficult from an engineering perspective. I don't really understand the enthusiasm for something that's slow, expensive to build and will cause disruption to build for a couple of decades. When there's an easier alternative with fewer downsides.

But knock yourselves out.

Trams in the Netherlands are great. Good value over the life-cycle of the tram too.

Now there's a country with extremely high density (double that of the UK) who moved from an entirely car orientated transport model to one where car driving only really dominates between urban areas and in rural areas, and even then there is pretty good use of public transport (though confidence has been significantly eroded by major lack of train investment, leading to a thoroughly unreliable service).

That was a conscious decision made by local and national government.

So I just don't buy the argument it's too hard to do etc. That's fatalistic nonsense.

Uh huh. Its doable, but there's no will here to do it and I'm afraid we are a small minority.

I think you need to get out of your bubble....

Long way to go to break car dominance and for cyclists to become a major mass transport in the UK but it is possible, as London clearly demonstrates, with other cities somewhere along that transition.

See my post above - maybe in the centre of the other big cities, but for the whole of the UK? No chance.

Cycling would be part of the transport picture, because we've made it easier, faster, better than the alternative e.g. getting stuck in a traffic jam, paying for parking, having to walk from parking outside the centre to where they need to be etc.

Some people will never get out of their cars, their choice.

I think the list of medium and large towns where that could and probably should be the case is much larger in the UK than you're giving credit for, it could replace/ reduce a lot of journeys

If cyclists don't aspire for that... who else will?

If you don't aspire for change, it will save you a lot of disappointment.

Stevo_666

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

super_davo said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Trams are not the solution in a day of electric buses. Unless you want to make things more expensive, dangerous and incur a decade of inconvenience during construction.

Trams carry a lot more people. The (electric) bus I was on yesterday only had seating in the rear two thirds. Also, due to the batteries, the seating is set really high leavng me getting thrown around and feeling a bit travel sick. Horses for courses really, trams / light rail for the main routes and buses for the spurs with lower demand. With both they tend to be significantly better when on their own dedicated infrastructure rather than sharing roads with other modes.

Also, as for the comment above that trams are a bad idea around cyclists, a lot of cities where cycling is a popular means of transport also have extensive tram networks.

Trolley busses don't have (large) batteries.

And seriously, you have to be realistic about the UK. It is a cycle hating culture like the US and Aus/NZ. That's a real distinction between us and other places that have things that work quite well around cycling, and nothing is going to change that in out lifetimes.

You've not been to London in the last 10 years, have you?

Can even happen here.

Yes, but I didn't like it.

Sorry whats the "it"? Trams?

Sure, it's not exactly difficult from an engineering perspective. I don't really understand the enthusiasm for something that's slow, expensive to build and will cause disruption to build for a couple of decades. When there's an easier alternative with fewer downsides.

But knock yourselves out.

Trams in the Netherlands are great. Good value over the life-cycle of the tram too.

Now there's a country with extremely high density (double that of the UK) who moved from an entirely car orientated transport model to one where car driving only really dominates between urban areas and in rural areas, and even then there is pretty good use of public transport (though confidence has been significantly eroded by major lack of train investment, leading to a thoroughly unreliable service).

That was a conscious decision made by local and national government.

So I just don't buy the argument it's too hard to do etc. That's fatalistic nonsense.

Uh huh. Its doable, but there's no will here to do it and I'm afraid we are a small minority.

I think you need to get out of your bubble....

Long way to go to break car dominance and for cyclists to become a major mass transport in the UK but it is possible, as London clearly demonstrates, with other cities somewhere along that transition.

See my post above - maybe in the centre of the other big cities, but for the whole of the UK? No chance.

Cycling would be part of the transport picture, because we've made it easier, faster, better than the alternative e.g. getting stuck in a traffic jam, paying for parking, having to walk from parking outside the centre to where they need to be etc.

Some people will never get out of their cars, their choice.

I think the list of medium and large towns where that could and probably should be the case is much larger in the UK than you're giving credit for, it could replace/ reduce a lot of journeys

If cyclists don't aspire for that... who else will?

Sure, there could be more bike trips, but you were saying above about breaking car dominance and becoming major mass transport. Aspiration is fine but realism is also good.

super_davo

I would be very happy with breaking the "I'm leaving the house therefore that means car" mentality that large swathes of the population have, and for more people than not to 1. Own a bike and 2. Think about the appropriate method of transport when getting to a appointment, train, local job, light shopping etc.

That does not seem like a major stretch to me.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

super_davo said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

super_davo said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Trams are not the solution in a day of electric buses. Unless you want to make things more expensive, dangerous and incur a decade of inconvenience during construction.

Trams carry a lot more people. The (electric) bus I was on yesterday only had seating in the rear two thirds. Also, due to the batteries, the seating is set really high leavng me getting thrown around and feeling a bit travel sick. Horses for courses really, trams / light rail for the main routes and buses for the spurs with lower demand. With both they tend to be significantly better when on their own dedicated infrastructure rather than sharing roads with other modes.

Also, as for the comment above that trams are a bad idea around cyclists, a lot of cities where cycling is a popular means of transport also have extensive tram networks.

Trolley busses don't have (large) batteries.

And seriously, you have to be realistic about the UK. It is a cycle hating culture like the US and Aus/NZ. That's a real distinction between us and other places that have things that work quite well around cycling, and nothing is going to change that in out lifetimes.

You've not been to London in the last 10 years, have you?

Can even happen here.

Yes, but I didn't like it.

Sorry whats the "it"? Trams?

Sure, it's not exactly difficult from an engineering perspective. I don't really understand the enthusiasm for something that's slow, expensive to build and will cause disruption to build for a couple of decades. When there's an easier alternative with fewer downsides.

But knock yourselves out.

Trams in the Netherlands are great. Good value over the life-cycle of the tram too.

Now there's a country with extremely high density (double that of the UK) who moved from an entirely car orientated transport model to one where car driving only really dominates between urban areas and in rural areas, and even then there is pretty good use of public transport (though confidence has been significantly eroded by major lack of train investment, leading to a thoroughly unreliable service).

That was a conscious decision made by local and national government.

So I just don't buy the argument it's too hard to do etc. That's fatalistic nonsense.

Uh huh. Its doable, but there's no will here to do it and I'm afraid we are a small minority.

I think you need to get out of your bubble....

Long way to go to break car dominance and for cyclists to become a major mass transport in the UK but it is possible, as London clearly demonstrates, with other cities somewhere along that transition.

Londoner talking about a bubble. Nice.

Look, London, Cambridge, Bristol and Oxford are more and more cycle friendly than they used to be, which is great, and more and more people cycle. But my bubble includes everywhere else. Basically, the weather is bad up north and/or there are hills bigger than the Col du Richmonde. For whatever reason, there are a fraction of the number of people who commute by bike in most other places, the roads are less friendly and people are less used to what to do around bikes. Since London hasn't had frost since about 2009, the roads are better there on the whole as well.

In Scotland, you also have "Scottish man" to deal with, which is a sub species of h o m o sapien that stopped evolving about 75000 years ago. Scottish man is unable to give an inch, and considers any criticism of driving skills to be the equivalent of killing everywoman and child in his clan.

Scotland is barely half of London population wise

rick_chasey

pinno said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Now there's a country with extremely high density (double that of the UK) who moved from an entirely car orientated transport model to one where car driving only really dominates between urban areas and in rural areas,

Good that you recognise to some extent that this is really only a solution for cities - and probably the central/inner bits of the larger of larger ones. For everyone else, its business as usual. And when you talk of this ever increasing urbanisation, don't forget there are a lot of people live in what might be classed as urban because they are in towns, but those towns simply aren't large enough to need or justify the sort of public transport 'solutions' that you propose.

That concept may be beyond Rick.

It’s not like I don’t live in one

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Now there's a country with extremely high density (double that of the UK) who moved from an entirely car orientated transport model to one where car driving only really dominates between urban areas and in rural areas,

Good that you recognise to some extent that this is really only a solution for cities - and probably the central/inner bits of the larger of larger ones. For everyone else, its business as usual. And when you talk of this ever increasing urbanisation, don't forget there are a lot of people live in what might be classed as urban because they are in towns, but those towns simply aren't large enough to need or justify the sort of public transport 'solutions' that you propose.

Netherlands is 92% urbanised.

Uk is in the 80s. Plenty of room for improvement

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Now there's a country with extremely high density (double that of the UK) who moved from an entirely car orientated transport model to one where car driving only really dominates between urban areas and in rural areas,

Good that you recognise to some extent that this is really only a solution for cities - and probably the central/inner bits of the larger of larger ones. For everyone else, its business as usual. And when you talk of this ever increasing urbanisation, don't forget there are a lot of people live in what might be classed as urban because they are in towns, but those towns simply aren't large enough to need or justify the sort of public transport 'solutions' that you propose.

Netherlands is 92% urbanised.

Uk is in the 80s. Plenty of room for improvement

Why would it be 'improvement'?

rick_chasey

Well public transport we all agree is better suited to urban living.

Luckily, over 80% of Brits *do* live in urban areas, so there should be lots of practical solutions for that 80 something %

pblakeney

"Areas forming settlements with populations of over 10,000 are urban, as defined by ONS urban area boundaries based upon land use."

Great, count me out. Do carry on...

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Well public transport we all agree is better suited to urban living.

Luckily, over 80% of Brits *do* live in urban areas, so there should be lots of practical solutions for that 80 something %

See my post above. Urban living as in centre of big cities is very different from urban provincial town or urban city suburbs. Your solutions only really suit the first one on my list so covers a considerably smaller percentage of the population than your blanket urban population percentage.

Stevo_666

pblakeney said:

"Areas forming settlements with populations of over 10,000 are urban, as defined by ONS urban area boundaries based upon land use."

Great, count me out. Do carry on...

Useful fact. 10,000 is a small town, but classed as urban.

pblakeney

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

"Areas forming settlements with populations of over 10,000 are urban, as defined by ONS urban area boundaries based upon land use."

Great, count me out. Do carry on...

Useful fact. 10,000 is a small town, but classed as urban.

Precisely. I am officially ruled as rural and as such this conversation is irrelevant to me.
Phew! 😉

Stevo_666

pblakeney said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

"Areas forming settlements with populations of over 10,000 are urban, as defined by ONS urban area boundaries based upon land use."

Great, count me out. Do carry on...

Useful fact. 10,000 is a small town, but classed as urban.

Precisely. I am officially ruled as rural and as such this conversation is irrelevant to me.
Phew! 😉

Likewise, but does that mean I'm not allowed to comment?

super_davo

I used to commute to Brentwood (population 50,000) and cycled from 10 miles away. Generally took in 35 minutes each way. Even in that size of small/medium town, it would typically take 20 minutes to get across town to the part my work was in, making cycling from that distance faster or at least next to nothing in it.

It doesn't need to be a massive city to benefit from better cycling provisions and a shift to cycling, just one where where the infrastructure can't cope with the level of cars it has. And there are an awful lot of places that fit into that category in the UK.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

super_davo said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

super_davo said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Trams are not the solution in a day of electric buses. Unless you want to make things more expensive, dangerous and incur a decade of inconvenience during construction.

Trams carry a lot more people. The (electric) bus I was on yesterday only had seating in the rear two thirds. Also, due to the batteries, the seating is set really high leavng me getting thrown around and feeling a bit travel sick. Horses for courses really, trams / light rail for the main routes and buses for the spurs with lower demand. With both they tend to be significantly better when on their own dedicated infrastructure rather than sharing roads with other modes.

Also, as for the comment above that trams are a bad idea around cyclists, a lot of cities where cycling is a popular means of transport also have extensive tram networks.

Trolley busses don't have (large) batteries.

And seriously, you have to be realistic about the UK. It is a cycle hating culture like the US and Aus/NZ. That's a real distinction between us and other places that have things that work quite well around cycling, and nothing is going to change that in out lifetimes.

You've not been to London in the last 10 years, have you?

Can even happen here.

Yes, but I didn't like it.

Sorry whats the "it"? Trams?

Sure, it's not exactly difficult from an engineering perspective. I don't really understand the enthusiasm for something that's slow, expensive to build and will cause disruption to build for a couple of decades. When there's an easier alternative with fewer downsides.

But knock yourselves out.

Trams in the Netherlands are great. Good value over the life-cycle of the tram too.

Now there's a country with extremely high density (double that of the UK) who moved from an entirely car orientated transport model to one where car driving only really dominates between urban areas and in rural areas, and even then there is pretty good use of public transport (though confidence has been significantly eroded by major lack of train investment, leading to a thoroughly unreliable service).

That was a conscious decision made by local and national government.

So I just don't buy the argument it's too hard to do etc. That's fatalistic nonsense.

Uh huh. Its doable, but there's no will here to do it and I'm afraid we are a small minority.

I think you need to get out of your bubble....

Long way to go to break car dominance and for cyclists to become a major mass transport in the UK but it is possible, as London clearly demonstrates, with other cities somewhere along that transition.

Londoner talking about a bubble. Nice.

Look, London, Cambridge, Bristol and Oxford are more and more cycle friendly than they used to be, which is great, and more and more people cycle. But my bubble includes everywhere else. Basically, the weather is bad up north and/or there are hills bigger than the Col du Richmonde. For whatever reason, there are a fraction of the number of people who commute by bike in most other places, the roads are less friendly and people are less used to what to do around bikes. Since London hasn't had frost since about 2009, the roads are better there on the whole as well.

In Scotland, you also have "Scottish man" to deal with, which is a sub species of h o m o sapien that stopped evolving about 75000 years ago. Scottish man is unable to give an inch, and considers any criticism of driving skills to be the equivalent of killing everywoman and child in his clan.

Scotland is barely half of London population wise

I'm sure that follows on seamlessly with the conversation you have been having with the voices in your head.

rjsterry

pblakeney said:

"Areas forming settlements with populations of over 10,000 are urban, as defined by ONS urban area boundaries based upon land use."

Great, count me out. Do carry on...

The village I grew up in is only slightly smaller than that and even 30 years ago had reasonable public transport. Rural enough to have some actual farms bordering it, too.

focuszing723

I've been having a conversation in my head about all of this transport malarkey and I can't work out why Kit the AI autonomous car in Knight Rider is so advanced, yet wouldn't be Ulez compliant. Surely that ain't right?

focuszing723

And Herbie!

focuszing723

Hang on though, actually Herbie would be classic exempt.

First.Aspect

Chitty chitty bang bang would be fine.

pinno

Chitty chitty bang bang is tax and MOT exempt.

Stevo_666

Likewise the Mean Machine

Stevo_666

super_davo said:

I used to commute to Brentwood (population 50,000) and cycled from 10 miles away. Generally took in 35 minutes each way. Even in that size of small/medium town, it would typically take 20 minutes to get across town to the part my work was in, making cycling from that distance faster or at least next to nothing in it.

It doesn't need to be a massive city to benefit from better cycling provisions and a shift to cycling, just one where where the infrastructure can't cope with the level of cars it has. And there are an awful lot of places that fit into that category in the UK.

Shorter distances are doable - I drive half way to London, ditch the car and ride (too far to do regular rounds trips purely on the bike). But beyond certain distances and for example where you need to transport stuff or other people etc, then it doesn't work.

kingstongraham

KITT runs primarily on liquid hydrogen fuel according to Wikipedia, so should be fine. Also first produced in 1982, so exempt.

carbonclem

focuszing723 said:

Hang on though, actually Herbie would be classic exempt.

Fun fact. One of the actual surviving Herbie cars now ‘lives’ in Uxbridge.

TheBigBean

One of my neighbours had his car stolen last night. I didn't know that still happened, but had to strongly resist the urge to congratulate him on his new status.

First.Aspect

TheBigBean said:

One of my neighbours had his car stolen last night. I didn't know that still happened, but had to strongly resist the urge to congratulate him on his new status.

If its not ULEZ compliant, he'll get a fine in the post as well.

davebradswmb

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

I used to commute to Brentwood (population 50,000) and cycled from 10 miles away. Generally took in 35 minutes each way. Even in that size of small/medium town, it would typically take 20 minutes to get across town to the part my work was in, making cycling from that distance faster or at least next to nothing in it.

It doesn't need to be a massive city to benefit from better cycling provisions and a shift to cycling, just one where where the infrastructure can't cope with the level of cars it has. And there are an awful lot of places that fit into that category in the UK.

Shorter distances are doable - I drive half way to London, ditch the car and ride (too far to do regular rounds trips purely on the bike). But beyond certain distances and for example where you need to transport stuff or other people etc, then it doesn't work.

You objected to the roll out of active travel across the country because what has happened in London cannot be replicated in a small town, now you are saying that shorter distances (such as getting from one side of a small town to the other) are doable. Make your mind up.

Stevo_666

davebradswmb said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

I used to commute to Brentwood (population 50,000) and cycled from 10 miles away. Generally took in 35 minutes each way. Even in that size of small/medium town, it would typically take 20 minutes to get across town to the part my work was in, making cycling from that distance faster or at least next to nothing in it.

It doesn't need to be a massive city to benefit from better cycling provisions and a shift to cycling, just one where where the infrastructure can't cope with the level of cars it has. And there are an awful lot of places that fit into that category in the UK.

Shorter distances are doable - I drive half way to London, ditch the car and ride (too far to do regular rounds trips purely on the bike). But beyond certain distances and for example where you need to transport stuff or other people etc, then it doesn't work.

You objected to the roll out of active travel across the country because what has happened in London cannot be replicated in a small town, now you are saying that shorter distances (such as getting from one side of a small town to the other) are doable. Make your mind up.

Already have, ta. Point about small towns is that they don't need and cannot justify the cost of transport solutions like trams and tubes. But getting around a town on a bike is OK subject to the stuff I mentioned above.