Who is the greatest British (male) road cyclist?

24

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  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,931
    5 GT wins putting a rider in the top10 seems low.

    But I suppose there's only 3 a year and riding more than 2 in a year is a challenge in itself.

    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • me-109
    me-109 Posts: 1,915

    Tour podiums, Froome won:

    2013 - Quintana, J Rod
    2015 - Quintana, Valverde
    2016 - Barnet (lol), Quintana
    2017 - Uran, Barset

    I mean, that’s hardly a heavyweight set of podiums is it?

    As they say, you have to be in it to win it. Not sure about the abandons en route those years, or the bad luck/form punting riders down the standings, but sometimes I think riders choose not to ride and to ride something else where they figure they may have more of a chance.

    Like you and your mate being chased by a lion, you don't have to be faster than the lion, just faster than your mate.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    me-109 said:

    Tour podiums, Froome won:

    2013 - Quintana, J Rod
    2015 - Quintana, Valverde
    2016 - Barnet (lol), Quintana
    2017 - Uran, Barset

    I mean, that’s hardly a heavyweight set of podiums is it?

    As they say, you have to be in it to win it. Not sure about the abandons en route those years, or the bad luck/form punting riders down the standings, but sometimes I think riders choose not to ride and to ride something else where they figure they may have more of a chance.

    Like you and your mate being chased by a lion, you don't have to be faster than the lion, just faster than your mate.
    Sure but if my mate was prime Michael Johnson it’d be much more impressive.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    edited August 2022

    Tour podiums, Froome won:

    2013 - Quintana, J Rod
    2015 - Quintana, Valverde
    2016 - Barnet (lol), Quintana
    2017 - Uran, Barset

    I mean, that’s hardly a heavyweight set of podiums is it?

    Conveniently, Contador was just off the podium in 2013 and 2015, and he won the Giro and Vuelta in between.

    You could also point out that Cavendish's World's and MSR were ahead of Goss and Haussler. He spent the peak of his career beating up Tyler Farrar
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    Sure I’m just talking Froome at this point.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,202
    People forget too that Cav is multi talented, being a ballroom dancer when he was younger. Froome was just p1ss1n about with big cats, snakes n' $h1t.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,202

    I mean look, I bet he'd give Anton du Beke a run for his money.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    He can't play football with a cheetah though





    Twitter: @RichN95
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,202
    Nah, that's just being lucky. Cav, that's artistic coordinated talent.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,804
    phreak said:

    If you took the "British" bit away and asked yourself whether Cipo was better than, say, LeMond or Indurain, I dare say the vast majority would pick Lemond or Indurain, yet Cipo has a very similar palmares to Cav.

    Cipo never got to paris
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  • shazzz
    shazzz Posts: 1,077
    Clearly they're both amazing but only one of them has won the British Road Race Championship.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    shazzz said:

    Clearly they're both amazing but only one of them has won the British Road Race Championship.


    Froome deserved to win the 2009 race
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • shazzz
    shazzz Posts: 1,077
    RichN95. said:

    shazzz said:

    Clearly they're both amazing but only one of them has won the British Road Race Championship.


    Froome deserved to win the 2009 race
    Coulda, shoulda, ......
    The podium photo from that race makes me feel very old!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    shazzz said:



    Coulda, shoulda, ......
    The podium photo from that race makes me feel very old!


    I was at the race. It was a who's who of British cycling. Everyone was there from Malcolm Elliott to Luke Rowe. The last pre-Sky race

    Here's one of my photos of the breakaway. Who could have predicted what the future held for these two.


    Twitter: @RichN95
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,905

    phreak said:

    If you took the "British" bit away and asked yourself whether Cipo was better than, say, LeMond or Indurain, I dare say the vast majority would pick Lemond or Indurain, yet Cipo has a very similar palmares to Cav.

    Cipo never got to paris
    He got to Milan enough times to win the points competition in the Giro three times. As I say, their palmares is nearly identical, including MSR and the Worlds, yet very few would rate him higher than multiple GT winners. Contador or Cipo, for instance?

    In terms of the hierarchy of the sport, GTs are quite a way out in front of multiple classics wins, and then sprint stages behind that.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,309
    Cav has more GC wins than Froome has one day wins, and at higher level.
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  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,570
    phreak said:

    phreak said:

    If you took the "British" bit away and asked yourself whether Cipo was better than, say, LeMond or Indurain, I dare say the vast majority would pick Lemond or Indurain, yet Cipo has a very similar palmares to Cav.

    Cipo never got to paris
    He got to Milan enough times to win the points competition in the Giro three times. As I say, their palmares is nearly identical, including MSR and the Worlds, yet very few would rate him higher than multiple GT winners. Contador or Cipo, for instance?

    In terms of the hierarchy of the sport, GTs are quite a way out in front of multiple classics wins, and then sprint stages behind that.
    Didn't Cipo benefit from course design?

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150

    phreak said:



    He got to Milan enough times to win the points competition in the Giro three times. As I say, their palmares is nearly identical, including MSR and the Worlds, yet very few would rate him higher than multiple GT winners. Contador or Cipo, for instance?

    In terms of the hierarchy of the sport, GTs are quite a way out in front of multiple classics wins, and then sprint stages behind that.

    Didn't Cipo benefit from course design?


    He also benefitted from Italian fans pushing him up the mountains.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,905

    phreak said:

    phreak said:

    If you took the "British" bit away and asked yourself whether Cipo was better than, say, LeMond or Indurain, I dare say the vast majority would pick Lemond or Indurain, yet Cipo has a very similar palmares to Cav.

    Cipo never got to paris
    He got to Milan enough times to win the points competition in the Giro three times. As I say, their palmares is nearly identical, including MSR and the Worlds, yet very few would rate him higher than multiple GT winners. Contador or Cipo, for instance?

    In terms of the hierarchy of the sport, GTs are quite a way out in front of multiple classics wins, and then sprint stages behind that.
    Didn't Cipo benefit from course design?

    Almost certainly. Just saying that I'm not sure the points jersey in a GT really means all that much and Cipo/Cav getting them wouldn't elevate them above someone who won several GT leaders jerseys.

    Cav is undoubtedly the best at what he does, just grand tours mean so much more.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,242
    I see there is no love for the domestic scene... how about Darryl Webster? Surely a top ten... I've seen an old track photo where Moser was drafting him
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,242
    edited August 2022
    It might sound controversial, but world stage accolades are not necessarily a sign of greatness. Firstly, you have to get there, which is as much down to being in the right place at the right time and then you have to stay there, which is down to the environment as much as it is down to the rider's talent. Personally, I don't think Wiggins is a greater rider than Boardman... he won the Tour, but it was a collective effort the likes of which had never seen before or after and in fairness he had no opposition... Nibali was not ready to win the tour yet... and then of course, the Jiffy bag episode.
    I have no doubt that Cavendish was the fastest rider on the planet for quite some time and he deserved every single race he won... and he won many... I think he is the greatest. I have always had reservations on Froome and I never thought he was a clean rider. The way he developed from a chubby rider to a bony GT contender is suspicious and of course there is no shortage of stories, medical exemptions and whatnot to put some serious question marks over his Tours. Thomas is probably the most versatile rider Britain ever had, he could win the Tour as well as some cobbled spring races... as well as medals on the track... nobody else managed that.
    But then of course, Engers was the first to go under 50 minutes on a 25 and that trumps everything else... :D
    left the forum March 2023
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,388
    RichN95. said:

    shazzz said:



    Coulda, shoulda, ......
    The podium photo from that race makes me feel very old!


    I was at the race. It was a who's who of British cycling. Everyone was there from Malcolm Elliott to Luke Rowe. The last pre-Sky race

    Here's one of my photos of the breakaway. Who could have predicted what the future held for these two.


    He was a chunky monkey in his youth eh?

    (It's ok for me to say cos so am I...)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,804

    It might sound controversial, but world stage accolades are not necessarily a sign of greatness. Firstly, you have to get there, which is as much down to being in the right place at the right time and then you have to stay there, which is down to the environment as much as it is down to the rider's talent. Personally, I don't think Wiggins is a greater rider than Boardman... he won the Tour, but it was a collective effort the likes of which had never seen before or after and in fairness he had no opposition... Nibali was not ready to win the tour yet... and then of course, the Jiffy bag episode.
    I have no doubt that Cavendish was the fastest rider on the planet for quite some time and he deserved every single race he won... and he won many... I think he is the greatest. I have always had reservations on Froome and I never thought he was a clean rider. The way he developed from a chubby rider to a bony GT contender is suspicious and of course there is no shortage of stories, medical exemptions and whatnot to put some serious question marks over his Tours. Thomas is probably the most versatile rider Britain ever had, he could win the Tour as well as some cobbled spring races... as well as medals on the track... nobody else managed that.
    But then of course, Engers was the first to go under 50 minutes on a 25 and that trumps everything else... :D

    There is something to the collective special effort part of this
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150



    There is something to the collective special effort part of this

    I think people forget how much time trialling there was in the 2012 Tour. Wiggins took nearly six minutes out of Nibali in ITTs alone
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Wheelspinner
    Wheelspinner Posts: 6,561
    RichN95. said:



    There is something to the collective special effort part of this

    I think people forget how much time trialling there was in the 2012 Tour. Wiggins took nearly six minutes out of Nibali in ITTs alone
    With my conspiracy hat on, I've always thought that there was probably a deal done between ASO and IOC and maybe British Cycling in the lead up to London Olympics. The TdF course that year appeared specifically designed to deliver the win to Wiggins, and ensure maximum cycling coverage and enthusiasm in the UK for the Olympic Games.
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  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,464

    RichN95. said:



    There is something to the collective special effort part of this

    I think people forget how much time trialling there was in the 2012 Tour. Wiggins took nearly six minutes out of Nibali in ITTs alone
    With my conspiracy hat on, I've always thought that there was probably a deal done between ASO and IOC and maybe British Cycling in the lead up to London Olympics. The TdF course that year appeared specifically designed to deliver the win to Wiggins, and ensure maximum cycling coverage and enthusiasm in the UK for the Olympic Games.
    It's pretty clear it was set up to aid Wiggins, but I don't think the Olympics came into it. The 2012 tour opened up a huge new market for the TdF, the UK.
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    gsk82 said:

    <

    It's pretty clear it was set up to aid Wiggins, but I don't think the Olympics came into it. The 2012 tour opened up a huge new market for the TdF, the UK.


    What market? The Tour is shown on a channel which usually shows repeats of 80s cop shows. Sure they had a Yorkshire start but that would have been planned before 2021.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,905
    edited August 2022
    That Van den Broeck TJvG and Zubeldia were 4th, 5th, and 6th isn't a great advert for the depth of field, especially with Rolland and Bjajkovic also in the top 10. It was one of those transitional years, with the likes of Kloden, Menchov, Basso, and possibly even Evans on the way down and the likes of Nibali and Pinot not yet there. Wiggins was in the right place at the right time.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,309

    Cav has more GC wins than Froome has one day wins, and at higher level.

    Can't believe bait of this quality didn't even get a nibble.
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  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,736
    edited August 2022
    Wiggins' greatness is as the first British Tour and grand tour winner (arguments over whether Froome won the Vuelta first notwithstanding).

    I think Bradley himself recognises that he isn't one of the great Tour riders but even if you ignore his status as first Brit for a pursuiter to win the Tour is pretty incredible. As cyclists across the whole Brad, Cav and Froome are pretty much equals.

    Ps voted Cav as I don't think GB can claim someone who has never lived here as British.
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