Giro 2022 - Stage 21: Verona – Verona 17.4 km ITT ***Spoilers***

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Comments

  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,553
    mididoctors said:

    kingstongraham said:

    mididoctors said:

    pblakeney said:

    phreak said:



    Often in the Giro they'd burn up Porte and Sivakov and the likes of Nibali and Pozzo would still be there, which seems a bit of a waste. I'd have thought the point of having top 10 type riders would be to do some attacking and get the leaders of the other teams to chase. After all, when Carapaz et al did attack they usually dropped the likes of Nibali and Pozzo reasonably quickly.

    It is a flawed tactic as I pointed out a few years ago all the competition have to do is sit on the back of the train and attack at the end. Rog & Pog have proven this. Jai too now.
    Kamna was crucial
    I'm not sure how crucial. Carapaz would still have cracked and Hindley would still have been stronger. Hindley being that much stronger than Carapaz with 5km to go was the crucial bit. Having that short stretch where he wasn't in the wind definitely helped a bit though.
    Bit hyperbolic guess . But the fact remains it worked fantastically. ..


    Sending riders up the road rarely works but it's spectacular when it does . The problem with trident / quad leader teams it only makes sense to push them forward early in GT but then early in a GT the GC is close and multiple teams will shut it down .. dual leaders has merit ... It's possible to keep your guys up on GC . Geriant won in part because froome was marked in the finale on the first few MTFs . Sastres win was a trident . I can't think of any other
    Cunego's Giro. Carapaz's Giro. Contador's first Tour, arguably.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,475
    If you want your domestique to attack the leaders of the other teams, they need to be able to still be there. You are definitely right that they won't be able to if they work so much beforehand, but I think most if not all of the Ineos mountain domestiques are not really that good anymore. The speed at which the races happen nowdays not many domestiques are able to do any long turn towards the end. Was an exception in this Giro from any team.

    I think there is hardly a domestique in the world currently who could pull off multiple attacks against Pogacar or Roglic before dropping off. Most likely Pogacar would counter the first attack and drop everyone.

    Rohan Dennis had a moment in the Giro two years ago and Vingegaard was strong in the Tour last year (and hasn't been similar since so far at least), Martinez was there to help Bernal against Caruso in the Giro, but that wasn't attacking, that was limiting losses.

    Domestiques strong in enough to pull off what you (all) are wishing for tend to get signed as leaders in other (French 😜) teams.

    Guillaume Martin, Pinot, Bardet, Landa, probably "should" be domestiques instead of leaders. It's the Richie Porte conundrum. Do you want to be a great helper or even the greatest or go for your own glory?

    GT's tend to be mostly won by the strongest rider. Tactics play a much smaller role than in the classics. Carapaz wasn't really ever able to drop Hindley. A single bad day from Carapaz was enough for Hindley to reverse the outcome.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    andyp said:

    mididoctors said:

    kingstongraham said:

    mididoctors said:

    pblakeney said:

    phreak said:



    Often in the Giro they'd burn up Porte and Sivakov and the likes of Nibali and Pozzo would still be there, which seems a bit of a waste. I'd have thought the point of having top 10 type riders would be to do some attacking and get the leaders of the other teams to chase. After all, when Carapaz et al did attack they usually dropped the likes of Nibali and Pozzo reasonably quickly.

    It is a flawed tactic as I pointed out a few years ago all the competition have to do is sit on the back of the train and attack at the end. Rog & Pog have proven this. Jai too now.
    Kamna was crucial
    I'm not sure how crucial. Carapaz would still have cracked and Hindley would still have been stronger. Hindley being that much stronger than Carapaz with 5km to go was the crucial bit. Having that short stretch where he wasn't in the wind definitely helped a bit though.
    Bit hyperbolic guess . But the fact remains it worked fantastically. ..


    Sending riders up the road rarely works but it's spectacular when it does . The problem with trident / quad leader teams it only makes sense to push them forward early in GT but then early in a GT the GC is close and multiple teams will shut it down .. dual leaders has merit ... It's possible to keep your guys up on GC . Geriant won in part because froome was marked in the finale on the first few MTFs . Sastres win was a trident . I can't think of any other
    Cunego's Giro. Carapaz's Giro. Contador's first Tour, arguably.
    Cunego was a special case .. carapaz was a duo true

    Contador was kinda hampered more than helped
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Cunegos giro was the worst ever ..in fact the worst GT I have ever seen
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Do we do rate the giro threads anymore?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,342
    mididoctors said:

    Do we do rate the giro threads anymore?

    Great Giro for stage racing.
    Poor Giro for GC, with the exception of the penultimate day.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    pblakeney said:

    mididoctors said:

    Do we do rate the giro threads anymore?

    Great Giro for stage racing.
    Poor Giro for GC, with the exception of the penultimate day.
    Losing bardet and Yates neutralised the race
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    mididoctors said:

    pblakeney said:

    mididoctors said:

    Do we do rate the giro threads anymore?

    Great Giro for stage racing.
    Poor Giro for GC, with the exception of the penultimate day.
    Losing bardet and Yates neutralised the race

    And Antman Lopez
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,342
    mididoctors said:

    pblakeney said:

    mididoctors said:

    Do we do rate the giro threads anymore?

    Great Giro for stage racing.
    Poor Giro for GC, with the exception of the penultimate day.
    Losing bardet and Yates neutralised the race
    It's an opinion, and I think they could have won stages.
    I doubt either would have won GC. Top 3 were the top 3.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,475
    Depends on if Yates had his bad day purely due to heat or how much the knee affected him. Prior to that he was looking the best among all the contenders.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,342
    m.r.m. said:

    Depends on if Yates had his bad day purely due to heat or how much the knee affected him. Prior to that he was looking the best among all the contenders.

    I was waiting for the bad day collapse.
    However it is only my opinion and my PTP position tells you all you need to know. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,726
    edited May 2022
    mididoctors said:

    Do we do rate the giro threads anymore?

    Cycling Weekly have done their usual, rate the Giro teams piece which is very debatable, as usual.

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racing/the-winners-and-losers-rating-the-teams-of-the-giro-ditalia
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    pblakeney said:

    mididoctors said:

    pblakeney said:

    mididoctors said:

    Do we do rate the giro threads anymore?

    Great Giro for stage racing.
    Poor Giro for GC, with the exception of the penultimate day.
    Losing bardet and Yates neutralised the race
    It's an opinion, and I think they could have won stages.
    I doubt either would have won GC. Top 3 were the top 3.
    Yates would have crushed it is my take . Bardet is strong in the third too
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    RichN95. said:

    mididoctors said:

    pblakeney said:

    mididoctors said:

    Do we do rate the giro threads anymore?

    Great Giro for stage racing.
    Poor Giro for GC, with the exception of the penultimate day.
    Losing bardet and Yates neutralised the race

    And Antman Lopez
    I always forget him
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,165
    It's very possible an in-form Bardet would have found Carapaz out on an earlier stage. He wouldn't have left it all till the last 5km of the last road stage.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,165
    edited May 2022
    .
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    mididoctors said:

    pblakeney said:

    mididoctors said:

    pblakeney said:

    mididoctors said:

    Do we do rate the giro threads anymore?

    Great Giro for stage racing.
    Poor Giro for GC, with the exception of the penultimate day.
    Losing bardet and Yates neutralised the race
    It's an opinion, and I think they could have won stages.
    I doubt either would have won GC. Top 3 were the top 3.
    Yates would have crushed it is my take . Bardet is strong in the third too
    He seems to have days in most GTs where he doesn't just lose bits and bobs but big time. Remember the Giro last year when he lost about 2m30 on the rainy Giau stage? He was 2nd going into that stage and it effectively did for his race.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    I'm not convinced Carapaz had anything to be found out other than on that one stage, possibly even that one climb...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,475
    Any ideas what the problem could be with Yates? The drop off is so massive every time, it's kind of weird.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • hanshotfirst
    hanshotfirst Posts: 400
    edited June 2022
    m.r.m. said:

    Any ideas what the problem could be with Yates? The drop off is so massive every time, it's kind of weird.

    In this instance he crashed early and injured his knee then lost some serious time as a result of that injury.

    Tbh I'm not sure how he managed to play through the pain to win what I remember to be a pretty solid stage only to abandon a few days later, you would think that an injury so severe as to remove you from the race would mean you couldn't win a stage but I'm far from being a professional athlete so what do I know? He wouldn't exactly be the first rider to do such a thing.

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