Not competing/mental health

24

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  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,304

    morstar said:

    I thought she had the yips. Not a lot of point in competing in that case.

    She referred to the twirlies which seems similar to the yips but much worse. It’s actually a loss of positional awareness.
    She called in twisties which is the gynastic equivalent of yips.
    That's different from mental health problems though... it's one or the other, or the media have made up the mental health story.

    Anyway, apparently she is now doing the beam...
    It doesn't really matter though does it? She could have a muscle injury, she could have the yips, she could have some other mental health problem. All of which might prevent her from competing.

    Really, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
    The point I am trying to make is that if there is no physical reason and it's not dangerous to compete and it's simply a case of anxiety and a feeling of not being able to perform at her standards... then she is stealing someone else's spot and she should put her big pants on and compete...

    Which apparently she now will

    So an issue in any part of the body other than the brain is legitimate. But if it's in the brain they should just get over it. Seems an odd distinction.
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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,201
    elbowloh said:

    morstar said:

    I thought she had the yips. Not a lot of point in competing in that case.

    She referred to the twirlies which seems similar to the yips but much worse. It’s actually a loss of positional awareness.
    She called in twisties which is the gynastic equivalent of yips.
    That's different from mental health problems though... it's one or the other, or the media have made up the mental health story.

    Anyway, apparently she is now doing the beam...
    It doesn't really matter though does it? She could have a muscle injury, she could have the yips, she could have some other mental health problem. All of which might prevent her from competing.

    Really, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
    The point I am trying to make is that if there is no physical reason and it's not dangerous to compete and it's simply a case of anxiety and a feeling of not being able to perform at her standards... then she is stealing someone else's spot and she should put her big pants on and compete...

    Which apparently she now will

    How is she stealing anyone else's spot?
    Same way Dina Asher-Smith is, I guess.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,615
    Safe to say Ugo is on the wrong side of this one.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,729
    It's one of those things - like a physical injury she just couldn't compete at the level required.

    It's only really big news because she is such an exceptional gymnast.

    It's certainly worthy of sympathy, I don't get the praise she's had from some quarters for being brave enough to take that decision but I guess that is just a counter weight to the unfair criticism some others may have given her for it.
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  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,230
    elbowloh said:

    morstar said:

    I thought she had the yips. Not a lot of point in competing in that case.

    She referred to the twirlies which seems similar to the yips but much worse. It’s actually a loss of positional awareness.
    She called in twisties which is the gynastic equivalent of yips.
    That's different from mental health problems though... it's one or the other, or the media have made up the mental health story.

    Anyway, apparently she is now doing the beam...
    It doesn't really matter though does it? She could have a muscle injury, she could have the yips, she could have some other mental health problem. All of which might prevent her from competing.

    Really, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
    The point I am trying to make is that if there is no physical reason and it's not dangerous to compete and it's simply a case of anxiety and a feeling of not being able to perform at her standards... then she is stealing someone else's spot and she should put her big pants on and compete...

    Which apparently she now will

    How is she stealing anyone else's spot?
    A nation can only line up a number of competitors... she is the pinnacle of a movement of thousands of gifted gymnasts and probably a dozen who could, given the opportunity, make the final.
    It is a shame that the qualified one refuses (if she refuses) to compete.
    As I said, injury or illness is a different matter.
    Maybe they would have been better off leaving the "mental health" story aside... which I suspect is only a distraction
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,230

    elbowloh said:

    morstar said:

    I thought she had the yips. Not a lot of point in competing in that case.

    She referred to the twirlies which seems similar to the yips but much worse. It’s actually a loss of positional awareness.
    She called in twisties which is the gynastic equivalent of yips.
    That's different from mental health problems though... it's one or the other, or the media have made up the mental health story.

    Anyway, apparently she is now doing the beam...
    It doesn't really matter though does it? She could have a muscle injury, she could have the yips, she could have some other mental health problem. All of which might prevent her from competing.

    Really, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
    The point I am trying to make is that if there is no physical reason and it's not dangerous to compete and it's simply a case of anxiety and a feeling of not being able to perform at her standards... then she is stealing someone else's spot and she should put her big pants on and compete...

    Which apparently she now will

    How is she stealing anyone else's spot?
    Same way Dina Asher-Smith is, I guess.
    She did compete...

    and as a matter of fact she even clocked a time that no one else at home would have done... so it's really a completely different thing.
    Respect to Dina, who tried her best
    left the forum March 2023
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078

    elbowloh said:

    morstar said:

    I thought she had the yips. Not a lot of point in competing in that case.

    She referred to the twirlies which seems similar to the yips but much worse. It’s actually a loss of positional awareness.
    She called in twisties which is the gynastic equivalent of yips.
    That's different from mental health problems though... it's one or the other, or the media have made up the mental health story.

    Anyway, apparently she is now doing the beam...
    It doesn't really matter though does it? She could have a muscle injury, she could have the yips, she could have some other mental health problem. All of which might prevent her from competing.

    Really, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
    The point I am trying to make is that if there is no physical reason and it's not dangerous to compete and it's simply a case of anxiety and a feeling of not being able to perform at her standards... then she is stealing someone else's spot and she should put her big pants on and compete...

    Which apparently she now will

    How is she stealing anyone else's spot?
    Same way Dina Asher-Smith is, I guess.
    She did compete...

    and as a matter of fact she even clocked a time that no one else at home would have done... so it's really a completely different thing.
    Respect to Dina, who tried her best
    Biles also competed, she did a vault, but then pulled out.
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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,201

    elbowloh said:

    morstar said:

    I thought she had the yips. Not a lot of point in competing in that case.

    She referred to the twirlies which seems similar to the yips but much worse. It’s actually a loss of positional awareness.
    She called in twisties which is the gynastic equivalent of yips.
    That's different from mental health problems though... it's one or the other, or the media have made up the mental health story.

    Anyway, apparently she is now doing the beam...
    It doesn't really matter though does it? She could have a muscle injury, she could have the yips, she could have some other mental health problem. All of which might prevent her from competing.

    Really, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
    The point I am trying to make is that if there is no physical reason and it's not dangerous to compete and it's simply a case of anxiety and a feeling of not being able to perform at her standards... then she is stealing someone else's spot and she should put her big pants on and compete...

    Which apparently she now will

    How is she stealing anyone else's spot?
    A nation can only line up a number of competitors... she is the pinnacle of a movement of thousands of gifted gymnasts and probably a dozen who could, given the opportunity, make the final.
    It is a shame that the qualified one refuses (if she refuses) to compete.
    As I said, injury or illness is a different matter.
    Maybe they would have been better off leaving the "mental health" story aside... which I suspect is only a distraction
    Simone Biles withdrew from the all round individual competition, which was then won by the American Sunisa Lee. She was replaced in the final by the American Jade Carey. Who also won the floor gold medal. No other American was anywhere near qualifying for a final in a spot that Biles' withdrawal affected.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,230
    Anyway... I don't see what is brave about it, I don't understand the praise to the athlete who decided to withdraw letting the all team down... I just don't get how this fits in with the spirit of the Olympics, which is about "taking part", even if you can't be the winner on the day.
    I hope it's a matter of balance, to be honest... and I hope she gets over it
    left the forum March 2023
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,289

    elbowloh said:

    morstar said:

    I thought she had the yips. Not a lot of point in competing in that case.

    She referred to the twirlies which seems similar to the yips but much worse. It’s actually a loss of positional awareness.
    She called in twisties which is the gynastic equivalent of yips.
    That's different from mental health problems though... it's one or the other, or the media have made up the mental health story.

    Anyway, apparently she is now doing the beam...
    It doesn't really matter though does it? She could have a muscle injury, she could have the yips, she could have some other mental health problem. All of which might prevent her from competing.

    Really, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
    The point I am trying to make is that if there is no physical reason and it's not dangerous to compete and it's simply a case of anxiety and a feeling of not being able to perform at her standards... then she is stealing someone else's spot and she should put her big pants on and compete...

    Which apparently she now will

    How is she stealing anyone else's spot?
    As I said, injury or illness is a different matter.
    Why? They shouldn't be a different matter.
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,304

    Anyway... I don't see what is brave about it, I don't understand the praise to the athlete who decided to withdraw letting the all team down... I just don't get how this fits in with the spirit of the Olympics, which is about "taking part", even if you can't be the winner on the day.
    I hope it's a matter of balance, to be honest... and I hope she gets over it

    It shouldn't be any braver than pulling out because you break a bone - but it is precisely because of reactions like yours.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552
    When Should You Use Ellipses?
    The two main purposes of ellipses in text are:

    indicating an omission within a piece of text

    showing a pause in a character's dialogue (or "trailing off" at the end of dialogue)
  • masjer
    masjer Posts: 2,554
    When an athlete "chokes" or "bottles it" (Roglic TDF2020), it seems that it's fair game for fans, press, commentators to pour scorn on their mental strength. When it's a "mental health issue" not so much.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,615
    edited August 2021

    Anyway... I don't see what is brave about it, I don't understand the praise to the athlete who decided to withdraw letting the all team down... I just don't get how this fits in with the spirit of the Olympics, which is about "taking part", even if you can't be the winner on the day.
    I hope it's a matter of balance, to be honest... and I hope she gets over it

    It is brave because some people are really scathing about mental health.

    #irony
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,201
    edited August 2021
    masjer said:

    When an athlete "chokes" or "bottles it" (Roglic TDF2020), it seems that it's fair game for fans, press, commentators to pour scorn on their mental strength. When it's a "mental health issue" not so much.

    What now? Roglic bottled it?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,595
    masjer said:

    When an athlete "chokes" or "bottles it" (Roglic TDF2020), it seems that it's fair game for fans, press, commentators to pour scorn on their mental strength. When it's a "mental health issue" not so much.

    Or possibly this sheds an unflattering light on that previous coverage.
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  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,729

    Anyway... I don't see what is brave about it, I don't understand the praise to the athlete who decided to withdraw letting the all team down... I just don't get how this fits in with the spirit of the Olympics, which is about "taking part", even if you can't be the winner on the day.
    I hope it's a matter of balance, to be honest... and I hope she gets over it


    I think you have a point that some commentators have gone over the top praising her decision to step down. A quick Google throws up headlines such as it means more than her Olympic golds.

    It must have been hard to step down but if she couldn't perform her routines them I don't think she had a choice - so whilst I have great sympathy for her I wouldn't say this demonstrates her great strength of character. What does demonstrate that is the fact she's still there after everything we know happened to her (and others) and the way she's handled that.

    In short I do think she's shown incredible strength - physical and mental - but perhaps she's pushed herself so hard for so long that her brain has just said no more. We can't really criticise her for that - it's not really a choice she's made.
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  • masjer
    masjer Posts: 2,554

    masjer said:

    When an athlete "chokes" or "bottles it" (Roglic TDF2020), it seems that it's fair game for fans, press, commentators to pour scorn on their mental strength. When it's a "mental health issue" not so much.

    What now? Roglic bottled it?
    Not my view point but that's how it was covered in the press.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,230
    masjer said:

    masjer said:

    When an athlete "chokes" or "bottles it" (Roglic TDF2020), it seems that it's fair game for fans, press, commentators to pour scorn on their mental strength. When it's a "mental health issue" not so much.

    What now? Roglic bottled it?
    Not my view point but that's how it was covered in the press.
    I don't know what press you read...
    I only remember words of praise for Roglic... he lost to a better athlete on the day and that's fair...

    left the forum March 2023
  • masjer
    masjer Posts: 2,554

    masjer said:

    masjer said:

    When an athlete "chokes" or "bottles it" (Roglic TDF2020), it seems that it's fair game for fans, press, commentators to pour scorn on their mental strength. When it's a "mental health issue" not so much.

    What now? Roglic bottled it?
    Not my view point but that's how it was covered in the press.
    I don't know what press you read...
    I only remember words of praise for Roglic... he lost to a better athlete on the day and that's fair...

    First Google:
    "Desperation turned to confusion and dejection as he sat on the ground in his full yellow skinsuit, trying to comprehend how he had committed one of modern cycling's biggest chokes. " BBChttps://bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/54186014
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686

    Anyway... I don't see what is brave about it, I don't understand the praise to the athlete who decided to withdraw letting the all team down... I just don't get how this fits in with the spirit of the Olympics, which is about "taking part", even if you can't be the winner on the day.
    I hope it's a matter of balance, to be honest... and I hope she gets over it


    It's brave because she knew she'd be faced with all of this BS, Ugo.
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  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435
    Ugo's lack of empathy is worrying for any of his students that struggle due to mental health issues "just pull yourself together or I'll fail you".
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552
    Pross said:

    Ugo's lack of empathy is worrying for any of his students that struggle due to mental health issues "just pull yourself together or I'll fail you".

    I'm intrigued what he teaches. Based on recent threads, I have ruled out psychology, counselling and English grammar.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,729
    Ugo is some kind of materials scientist I think.

    I wouldn't judge people by opinions expressed in here - I've known plenty of people who say all the right things but when it comes to actually helping people you don't see them.
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  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,230
    Chemistry...

    We currently have probably 1 in 4 student who at some point seeks help for mental health...
    Which is fine, because we have a robust system in place.
    The problem is the reliance on mitigating circumstances, deadline extensions and whatnot creates a vicious circle and once they move on from Education, they will find that the same level of support is not available until they have secure employment (and even there...). Unfortunately, there isn't a system in place to apply for mitigating circumstances at interviews, so I am not 100% sure what we do is in their interest.

    Basically we have moved to a place where "not being OK is OK" but the world outside is not there yet... hence my reluctance
    left the forum March 2023
  • Have to admit as someone who doesn't follow gymnastics, I was oblivious to Biles' achievements over the years. Did pulling out of events come about because she became incredibly anxious about not living up to the expectations others had of her? Was she carrying an injury, but felt pressure to still go to Tokyo? Have her main rivals been upping their game in recent times, meaning Biles would have to be at her very best to get the golds that others expected of her? Was her training significantly affected by Covid?

    I've absolutely no idea, all I do know is I can't remember anything similar happening at previous Olympics for one event, nevermind multiple finals Biles has withdrew from.

    Eventually, all athletes need to make the call on calling their professional career over, for world class athletes it must be even harder. The longer you continue, the more likely it is that your talent will begin to drop and younger athletes will be there to find chinks in your armour. Some will be pushed into retirement, others will find peace in accepting they are no longer the very best.
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  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,615

    Chemistry...

    We currently have probably 1 in 4 student who at some point seeks help for mental health...
    Which is fine, because we have a robust system in place.
    The problem is the reliance on mitigating circumstances, deadline extensions and whatnot creates a vicious circle and once they move on from Education, they will find that the same level of support is not available until they have secure employment (and even there...). Unfortunately, there isn't a system in place to apply for mitigating circumstances at interviews, so I am not 100% sure what we do is in their interest.

    Basically we have moved to a place where "not being OK is OK" but the world outside is not there yet... hence my reluctance

    I think we all understand that snowflakes can be exasperating Ugo, and that there seem to be more of them. It is just that hidden amongst them are people with real issues, and who are we to judge?

    Is it better, or worse now, than when the mere mention of stress or anxiety caused people to make a funny face and point at their temple? Better, or worse, than essentially ending your career by confessing to it? (Which is still pretty much the case in a lot of my profession).
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,201
    This was from just before the Olympics gymnastics started:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/24/sports/olympics/simone-biles-gymnastics.html

    In a telephone interview about a week before leaving for the Tokyo Games, she was asked to name the happiest moment of her career.

    “Honestly, probably my time off,” she said.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,196
    After failing to win a medal on the vault on Sunday, Jade Carey went back to the U.S. gymnastics team’s hotel and searched for ways to shake off her disappointment. With one more event to go in these Tokyo Games, the floor exercise, she needed to bounce back, and fast.

    Advice from Simone Biles, her teammate, helped.

    “Let it go and move on,” Carey recalled Biles telling her. “It happened and you can’t do anything about it.”

    After withdrawing from most of her events at these Olympics because of mental health issues, Biles will compete in the balance beam final on Tuesday, her last possible event in Tokyo. U.S.A. Gymnastics announced Biles’s decision on Monday just before the start of the floor exercise final.

    “We are so excited to confirm that you will see two U.S. athletes in the balance beam final tomorrow — Suni Lee AND Simone Biles!! Can’t wait to watch you both!” U.S.A. Gymnastics said in an emailed statement
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/sports/olympics/simone-biles-jade-carey-gymnastics.html
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,615

    This was from just before the Olympics gymnastics started:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/24/sports/olympics/simone-biles-gymnastics.html

    In a telephone interview about a week before leaving for the Tokyo Games, she was asked to name the happiest moment of her career.

    “Honestly, probably my time off,” she said.
    Yeah, I think BB raised the point about gymnastics being a bit.... uncomfortable. With some of the young girls who would be able to bench press me at age 9 onwards, I get a similar feeling to watching a documentary about JonBenet Ramsay.