Bike Prices

bmxboy10

I’m sitting here on a rainy morning in lockdown 2 thinking about bikes again.

I just can’t believe the prices these days. Bikes that were £1000 and on the R2W scheme several years ago are now £2500 plus. I understand the demand for bikes recently but bike prices have risen year on year significantly for no apparent reason in fact you could argue that more sales should lead to better value for the consumer.

There are no deals about either again due to demand from the summer.

At what point will the industry price themselves out of the market? Project forward a few years and a 105 equipped Tarmac will be pushing on for £3000! How is that good value and more importantly how many people will be able to afford to buy an new bike.

Utter madness.

ugo.santalucia

It probably just means more people will buy direct from China.
In time trialling and Hill climb I see that a lot... given those bikes are not meant to do big mileage and reliability is not a massive issue, a lot of competitors take a punt and buy direct from China and save a fortune... once the experience is positive, they won't go back to Trek or Cannondale.

brundonbianchi

Wait until Brexit hits.

shortfall

Hopefully it might make more people look to UK frame builders using steel? For similar or probably even less money these days than buying off the shelf carbon, you can get the full bespoke experience and own something that will last many, many years. Ok it won't have the latest truncated aerofoil frame profiles and what not but that sort of stuff makes zero difference to the performance of most people who are buying them anyway. Does anybody other than pros actually race these 5 and 10 grand bikes? I doubt it, I suspect most are doing what Ugo says above.

ugo.santalucia

shortfall said:

Hopefully it might make more people look to UK frame builders using steel? For similar or probably even less money these days than buying off the shelf carbon, you can get the full bespoke experience and own something that will last many, many years.

I don't think so... they are following the same trend. As carbon frames become pricier, so do the bespoke products. Said builders enjoy spending longer smoothening out the braze and churn out a frame every two weeks... basically they want to be seen as artists rather than artisans.
Once I looked at the 8 little differences between a Legend frame built by Bertoletti for > 3 grand and a very similar one made (probably) in China that Planet X was selling for 600 quid. One difference was the colour, another was the decal, I did not find any other

akh

I'm just repeating what I've read, I don't know how true it is or how applicable to cycling. If a market is shrinking, or at least not growing, the way to preserve/increase profits is to up prices and make more profit per sale. The better off enthusiast market is more resilient than the low end, low margin, high volume market. This is essentially what Apple did with the £1k+ phone.

Some brands won't have the brand appeal to pull it off (I can't see how a Genesis Equilibrium is a £1,600 bike and I've got one!), but I suspect the big brands can sustain that for a while, I see plenty of them about.

My last couple of bikes have all been self builds; wheels, groupsets, and finishing kit don't seem to have increased in price as much as complete bikes or framesets. I get the impression it's mainly the big brands looking to preserve their corporate profits and charging enormous markups on mass produced carbon frames. I know there's R&D, warranty, etc to support, but I suspect a big chunk supports their advertising and profits.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I just can’t believe the prices these days. Bikes that were £1000 and on the R2W scheme several years ago are now £2500 plus. I understand the demand for bikes recently but bike prices have risen year on year significantly for no apparent reason in fact you could argue that more sales should lead to better value for the consumer

I suspect the reason/strategy is to push up prices and exploit consumer demand at the lower price points.

The whole idea of the £10k 'superbike' we now see isn't to sell these bikes (how many people actually buy a tricked out S Works with di2 etc at this price point? Not many!). The idea is to inflate prices in the price points below where the actual demand is. Therefore the bike that previously cost £1500 is now £2500 and the £2500 is now £4000.

Longer term I suspect they will hit a ceiling, as those of us actually buying bikes will look elsewhere from the big manufacturers and their constant price increases.

bmxboy10

For me the ceiling has been hit. I have noticed a few retailers like Spa Cycles still seem to have the right ethos and really seem to want to ensure their Customers get value for money. Just look at their Ti frame and wheel building prices. Old school yes but that’s good IMO.

shortfall

ugo.santalucia said:

shortfall said:

Hopefully it might make more people look to UK frame builders using steel? For similar or probably even less money these days than buying off the shelf carbon, you can get the full bespoke experience and own something that will last many, many years.

I don't think so... they are following the same trend. As carbon frames become pricier, so do the bespoke products. Said builders enjoy spending longer smoothening out the braze and churn out a frame every two weeks... basically they want to be seen as artists rather than artisans.
Once I looked at the 8 little differences between a Legend frame built by Bertoletti for > 3 grand and a very similar one made (probably) in China that Planet X was selling for 600 quid. One difference was the colour, another was the decal, I did not find any other

Maybe, I'm out of the loop these days as I bought my last bike nearly 6 years ago (or was it 7?). Anyway, last time I looked online at places like Rourke and Justin Burls they seemed like they were still relatively sane money.

ugo.santalucia

shortfall said:

ugo.santalucia said:

shortfall said:

Hopefully it might make more people look to UK frame builders using steel? For similar or probably even less money these days than buying off the shelf carbon, you can get the full bespoke experience and own something that will last many, many years.

I don't think so... they are following the same trend. As carbon frames become pricier, so do the bespoke products. Said builders enjoy spending longer smoothening out the braze and churn out a frame every two weeks... basically they want to be seen as artists rather than artisans.
Once I looked at the 8 little differences between a Legend frame built by Bertoletti for > 3 grand and a very similar one made (probably) in China that Planet X was selling for 600 quid. One difference was the colour, another was the decal, I did not find any other

Maybe, I'm out of the loop these days as I bought my last bike nearly 6 years ago (or was it 7?). Anyway, last time I looked online at places like Rourke and Justin Burls they seemed like they were still relatively sane money.

It's a couple of grand for a bespoke steel frame, give or take. It's 9 lengths of butted pipe joined together, a few bits and bobs and an off the peg carbon fork.
To be honest I see even less value there, than I see in the latest Pinarello frameset...

brundonbianchi

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

The whole idea of the £10k 'superbike' we now see isn't to sell these bikes (how many people actually buy a tricked out S Works with di2 etc at this price point? Not many!).

Too right, I’d never pay (North of ) ten grand for a Spesh.

DeVlaeminck

The reality of rising prices has hit home because there are so few sale bikes this year. I guess that may change in 2021 but as apparently prices are set to rise those of us who look for a bargain are likely to be disappointed.

I don't see people going back to steel - as Ugo says UK based small scale frame builders have also gone up market and it just can't compete with carbon in terms of weight and stiffness anyway.

Personally I just buy fewer bikes - I keep what I have longer - probably no bad thing.

ugo.santalucia

I was toying with the idea of a light bike over the spring, for the hill climbs, but basically I was looking at 2 grand for anything around 7 kg and only Rose and Canyon would do something that suited. Neither had stock anyway. In the end, I upgraded bits and bobs of my current bike, bringing it down to 7.5 kg from nearly 9... total cost less that 500 pounds. Given the current market and the current prices, I am in no rush to buy a new bike.

shortfall

Not doubting the prices you've been quoted for the stuff you've looked at Ugo but there's a bespoke Mercian frame here starting at £1250 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/group-tests/best-steel-road-bikes-a-buyers-guide-465464

I suspect that getting a steel or ti bike close to 7kg is where the extra cost is? Dunno?

ugo.santalucia

shortfall said:

Not doubting the prices you've been quoted for the stuff you've looked at Ugo but there's a bespoke Mercian frame here starting at £1250 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/group-tests/best-steel-road-bikes-a-buyers-guide-465464

I suspect that getting a steel or ti bike close to 7kg is where the extra cost is? Dunno?

It says from 1284 pounds and of course for that money you get steel forks.... I would assume for carbon you need to add at least another 150 pounds. Then I ssume that's the cost of an off the peg... if you want bespoke it might be a little more, plus the cost of your trips to get measured etc (although that can be fun).
Frankly, that's a frame you could have had in 1990... your usual 1.7 kg job, which becomes 2.3 kg once you add forks... compare with a Ridley Helium, which including forks will be half that number...

shortfall

Not everybody wants or needs a Ridley Helium even if you do as someone in a very niche section of the market, which is my point. The crazy prices might make people reappraise what they need out of a bike? Maybe not.

ugo.santalucia

shortfall said:

Not everybody wants or needs a Ridley Helium even if you do as someone in a very niche section of the market, which is my point. The crazy prices might make people reappraise what they need out of a bike? Maybe not.

I appreciate that... but why would you spend 1500 or 2,000 pounds on a steel frame which is the same as one you could have had 30 years ago? Just go on Ebay and get one for 100 quid, there's plenty of them... or get one new from Kinesis, Planet X or other for half the price or less.
That's where I don't see value... you are just paying over the odds for something that is really nothing special... and it probably won't outlast a carbon frame either

webboo

I had a Raleigh special products 853 frame in the 90’s and it was ok but it was like a gate compared with the then bottom of the range Aluminium Pinarello with carbon front forks I got next. I bought bike 4 years ago which had frame ridden by one of world tour teams the year before, it has a Dura Ace group set on it. It cost just over 4 grand now you would be looking at 8 grand for a comparable bike. What else has gone up 50% in that time.

shortfall

ugo.santalucia said:

shortfall said:

Not everybody wants or needs a Ridley Helium even if you do as someone in a very niche section of the market, which is my point. The crazy prices might make people reappraise what they need out of a bike? Maybe not.

I appreciate that... but why would you spend 1500 or 2,000 pounds on a steel frame which is the same as one you could have had 30 years ago? Just go on Ebay and get one for 100 quid, there's plenty of them... or get one new from Kinesis, Planet X or other for half the price or less.
That's where I don't see value... you are just paying over the odds for something that is really nothing special... and it probably won't outlast a carbon frame either

Sure, do that if you want, or spend 10 grand on a Bianchi if that's what you want. We all have different ideas about what a good bike is and what we spend our cash on.

pblakeney

DeVlaeminck said:

Personally I just buy fewer bikes - I keep what I have longer - probably no bad thing.

Last time I bought a bike was 2011. 😉
As to price increases, I got my Colnago Master complete bike for £2k in 2008. Insurance new for old replacement is getting closer to £4k every year. 😱

ugo.santalucia

shortfall said:

ugo.santalucia said:

shortfall said:

Not everybody wants or needs a Ridley Helium even if you do as someone in a very niche section of the market, which is my point. The crazy prices might make people reappraise what they need out of a bike? Maybe not.

I appreciate that... but why would you spend 1500 or 2,000 pounds on a steel frame which is the same as one you could have had 30 years ago? Just go on Ebay and get one for 100 quid, there's plenty of them... or get one new from Kinesis, Planet X or other for half the price or less.
That's where I don't see value... you are just paying over the odds for something that is really nothing special... and it probably won't outlast a carbon frame either

Sure, do that if you want, or spend 10 grand on a Bianchi if that's what you want. We all have different ideas about what a good bike is and what we spend our cash on.

I am probably more likely to buy from Ribble or something.
What you get from an artisan is a made to measure frame which is brazed rather than welded. There is no benefit in brazing, other than you might get a better looking finish. Made to measure is a necessity for some, not for me... any off the peg frame that broadly resembles a 54-55 size works absolutely fine.

brundonbianchi

shortfall said:

ugo.santalucia said:

shortfall said:

Not everybody wants or needs a Ridley Helium even if you do as someone in a very niche section of the market, which is my point. The crazy prices might make people reappraise what they need out of a bike? Maybe not.

I appreciate that... but why would you spend 1500 or 2,000 pounds on a steel frame which is the same as one you could have had 30 years ago? Just go on Ebay and get one for 100 quid, there's plenty of them... or get one new from Kinesis, Planet X or other for half the price or less.
That's where I don't see value... you are just paying over the odds for something that is really nothing special... and it probably won't outlast a carbon frame either

Sure, do that if you want, or spend 10 grand on a Bianchi if that's what you want. We all have different ideas about what a good bike is and what we spend our cash on.

I’m more a case of ride a bike I like the look of / have researched, then if it lights my fire, based on the ride, worry about the price. I’ve ridden a few bikes that I’ve heard great things about, and really not found what I’ve heard to tally with the ride experience. I’ve ridden bikes that I’ve heard very little about, and found them to be superb. I go on how the bike rides primarily.

shortfall

brundonbianchi said:

shortfall said:

ugo.santalucia said:

shortfall said:

Not everybody wants or needs a Ridley Helium even if you do as someone in a very niche section of the market, which is my point. The crazy prices might make people reappraise what they need out of a bike? Maybe not.

I appreciate that... but why would you spend 1500 or 2,000 pounds on a steel frame which is the same as one you could have had 30 years ago? Just go on Ebay and get one for 100 quid, there's plenty of them... or get one new from Kinesis, Planet X or other for half the price or less.
That's where I don't see value... you are just paying over the odds for something that is really nothing special... and it probably won't outlast a carbon frame either

Sure, do that if you want, or spend 10 grand on a Bianchi if that's what you want. We all have different ideas about what a good bike is and what we spend our cash on.

I’m more a case of ride a bike I like the look of / have researched, then if it lights my fire, based on the ride, worry about the price. I’ve ridden a few bikes that I’ve heard great things about, and really not found what I’ve heard to tally with the ride experience. I’ve ridden bikes that I’ve heard very little about, and found them to be superb. I go on how the bike rides primarily.

Sure. Would you agree that when spending North of ten grand It's probably a good idea to buy a bike that isn't too small?

brundonbianchi

shortfall said:

brundonbianchi said:

shortfall said:

ugo.santalucia said:

shortfall said:

Not everybody wants or needs a Ridley Helium even if you do as someone in a very niche section of the market, which is my point. The crazy prices might make people reappraise what they need out of a bike? Maybe not.

I appreciate that... but why would you spend 1500 or 2,000 pounds on a steel frame which is the same as one you could have had 30 years ago? Just go on Ebay and get one for 100 quid, there's plenty of them... or get one new from Kinesis, Planet X or other for half the price or less.
That's where I don't see value... you are just paying over the odds for something that is really nothing special... and it probably won't outlast a carbon frame either

Sure, do that if you want, or spend 10 grand on a Bianchi if that's what you want. We all have different ideas about what a good bike is and what we spend our cash on.

I’m more a case of ride a bike I like the look of / have researched, then if it lights my fire, based on the ride, worry about the price. I’ve ridden a few bikes that I’ve heard great things about, and really not found what I’ve heard to tally with the ride experience. I’ve ridden bikes that I’ve heard very little about, and found them to be superb. I go on how the bike rides primarily.

Sure. Would you agree that when spending North of ten grand It's probably a good idea to buy a bike that isn't too small?

Absolutely, hence the reason I bought one that’s fitted / sized perfectly. Anything from 53 to 57 would have worked (based on the geometry charts, and test rides ) the 55cm I bought, set up the way I have it was the ‘Goldilocks’ solution. I’m enjoying riding it many hundreds of miles.

webboo

brundonbianchi said:

shortfall said:

brundonbianchi said:

shortfall said:

ugo.santalucia said:

shortfall said:

Not everybody wants or needs a Ridley Helium even if you do as someone in a very niche section of the market, which is my point. The crazy prices might make people reappraise what they need out of a bike? Maybe not.

I appreciate that... but why would you spend 1500 or 2,000 pounds on a steel frame which is the same as one you could have had 30 years ago? Just go on Ebay and get one for 100 quid, there's plenty of them... or get one new from Kinesis, Planet X or other for half the price or less.
That's where I don't see value... you are just paying over the odds for something that is really nothing special... and it probably won't outlast a carbon frame either

Sure, do that if you want, or spend 10 grand on a Bianchi if that's what you want. We all have different ideas about what a good bike is and what we spend our cash on.

I’m more a case of ride a bike I like the look of / have researched, then if it lights my fire, based on the ride, worry about the price. I’ve ridden a few bikes that I’ve heard great things about, and really not found what I’ve heard to tally with the ride experience. I’ve ridden bikes that I’ve heard very little about, and found them to be superb. I go on how the bike rides primarily.

Sure. Would you agree that when spending North of ten grand It's probably a good idea to buy a bike that isn't too small?

Absolutely, hence the reason I bought one that’s fitted / sized perfectly. Anything from 53 to 57 would have worked (based on the geometry charts, and test rides ) the 55cm I bought, set up the way I have it was the ‘Goldilocks’ solution. I’m enjoying riding it many hundreds of miles.

And one day I hope to do these rides in the real world.

brundonbianchi

webboo said:

brundonbianchi said:

shortfall said:

brundonbianchi said:

shortfall said:

ugo.santalucia said:

shortfall said:

Not everybody wants or needs a Ridley Helium even if you do as someone in a very niche section of the market, which is my point. The crazy prices might make people reappraise what they need out of a bike? Maybe not.

I appreciate that... but why would you spend 1500 or 2,000 pounds on a steel frame which is the same as one you could have had 30 years ago? Just go on Ebay and get one for 100 quid, there's plenty of them... or get one new from Kinesis, Planet X or other for half the price or less.
That's where I don't see value... you are just paying over the odds for something that is really nothing special... and it probably won't outlast a carbon frame either

Sure, do that if you want, or spend 10 grand on a Bianchi if that's what you want. We all have different ideas about what a good bike is and what we spend our cash on.

I’m more a case of ride a bike I like the look of / have researched, then if it lights my fire, based on the ride, worry about the price. I’ve ridden a few bikes that I’ve heard great things about, and really not found what I’ve heard to tally with the ride experience. I’ve ridden bikes that I’ve heard very little about, and found them to be superb. I go on how the bike rides primarily.

Sure. Would you agree that when spending North of ten grand It's probably a good idea to buy a bike that isn't too small?

Absolutely, hence the reason I bought one that’s fitted / sized perfectly. Anything from 53 to 57 would have worked (based on the geometry charts, and test rides ) the 55cm I bought, set up the way I have it was the ‘Goldilocks’ solution. I’m enjoying riding it many hundreds of miles.

And one day I hope to do these rides in the real world.

Yawwwwwwwwn





And lots of other ones that I CBA’d to bother putting up.

webboo

I can believe these however in the past you would have made these into one 120 k ride. However it’s odd that you finished the bottom ride at 8:56 and you have no front lights on your bike.
Next you will posting a picture of a Lotus 7 next to a plane.

webboo

P.S. that bike still looks too small. All seat post and spacers.

mrb123

webboo said:

P.S. that bike still looks too small. All seat post and spacers.

He takes the spacers out when he wants to smash it.

Cargobike

webboo said:

P.S. that bike still looks too small. All seat post and spacers.

Farkin 'ell, you should see my bike, way more seatpost and spacers, even in an XXL frame to fit my lanky body.
People are different sizes, "who'd a thought"?

webboo

I would imagine that you didn’t spend ten grand and the rest on your bike.