French teacher killed

nickice

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

The French state hated Charlie Hebdo but, on this occasion, they have to support the right to publish the cartoons as anything else would be giving into Islamist terrorism.

I don't support the banning of what people wear etc. either.

I'm not sure why you think the police didn't take it seriously. Both women were arrested.

TheBigBean

nickice said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

The French state hated Charlie Hebdo but, on this occasion, they have to support the right to publish the cartoons as anything else would be giving into Islamist terrorism.

I don't support the banning of what people wear etc. either.

I'm not sure why you think the police didn't take it seriously. Both women were arrested.

They could support the right to publish whilst disagreeing with what is published. Governments do this on a daily basis.

Re: police. I think I read somewhere it wasn't consider a race crime until videos went on Facebook or something like that.

It doesn't really answer the question though which is what is the government doing about this bit

France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

nickice

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

The French state hated Charlie Hebdo but, on this occasion, they have to support the right to publish the cartoons as anything else would be giving into Islamist terrorism.

I don't support the banning of what people wear etc. either.

I'm not sure why you think the police didn't take it seriously. Both women were arrested.

They could support the right to publish whilst disagreeing with what is published. Governments do this on a daily basis.

Re: police. I think I read somewhere it wasn't consider a race crime until videos went on Facebook or something like that.

It doesn't really answer the question though which is what is the government doing about this bit

France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

That's pretty much what they're doing. They're saying that to live in France you have to accept that people have the right to mock your religion even if you don't like it and it's part and parcel of living in a free society. The government is not encouraging people to publish cartoons.

Regarding your other question, what do you expect them to do? Governments can't soive all the problems of the world. I'm also, might I add, not a representative of the French government.

Dorset_Boy

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

Isn't the French republic secular and aren't all religous symbols effectively banned, so it's not just banning burkhinis and hijabs, but other overtly religious symbols too?

nickice

Dorset_Boy said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

Isn't the French republic secular and aren't all religous effectively banned, so it's not just banning burkhinis and hijabs, but other overtly religious symbols too?

Yes it does but only in certain places like schools. The exception is a full face covering which is banned in all public places.

I'm not a huge fan of the French rules as, even though it may be coincidental, it seems to target minority religions like Judaism and Islam where the wearing of religious symbols is more common. How many Christians wear noticeable religious symbols in the UK, for example? In other words, it looks like indirect discrimination.

This must be strange coming from a racist, bigoted, Islamophobic, holocaust denier I imagine....

rjsterry

Dorset_Boy said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

Isn't the French republic secular and aren't all religous effectively banned, so it's not just banning burkhinis and hijabs, but other overtly religious symbols too?

Er, no, religion is a very long way from being banned in France. You know that big building that caught fire last year... It's shaped like a cross.

nickice

And what the hell is Erdogan doing? Behaving like Trump by the looks of it.

rjsterry

nickice said:

And what the hell is Erdogan doing? Behaving like Trump by the looks of it.

That's not really new for Erdoğan. He's always been like that.

david37

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

And what the hell is Erdogan doing? Behaving like Trump by the looks of it.

That's not really new for Erdoğan. He's always been like that.

oh thats ok then.

Also how does no muslim community sit with this report https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-54751920

TheBigBean

nickice said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

The French state hated Charlie Hebdo but, on this occasion, they have to support the right to publish the cartoons as anything else would be giving into Islamist terrorism.

I don't support the banning of what people wear etc. either.

I'm not sure why you think the police didn't take it seriously. Both women were arrested.

They could support the right to publish whilst disagreeing with what is published. Governments do this on a daily basis.

Re: police. I think I read somewhere it wasn't consider a race crime until videos went on Facebook or something like that.

It doesn't really answer the question though which is what is the government doing about this bit

France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

That's pretty much what they're doing. They're saying that to live in France you have to accept that people have the right to mock your religion even if you don't like it and it's part and parcel of living in a free society. The government is not encouraging people to publish cartoons.

Regarding your other question, what do you expect them to do? Governments can't soive all the problems of the world. I'm also, might I add, not a representative of the French government.

Acknowledgement of the problem would be a start. Governments can try to solve problems in their own country.

Dorset_Boy

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

Isn't the French republic secular and aren't all religous effectively banned, so it's not just banning burkhinis and hijabs, but other overtly religious symbols too?

Er, no, religion is a very long way from being banned in France. You know that big building that caught fire last year... It's shaped like a cross.

Smart arsed prick. Read the post. I left out the symbols the first time but it was pretty obvious if you read the post.

rjsterry

david37 said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

And what the hell is Erdogan doing? Behaving like Trump by the looks of it.

That's not really new for Erdoğan. He's always been like that.

oh thats ok then.

Also how does no muslim community sit with this report https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-54751920

Did I say it was OK? Yet another authoritarian leader prepared to wheel out their supposed piety and point at some perceived slight overseas when they need a distraction from their own grubby politics. Been happening since antiquity. Funny how there's always a camera crew nearby when someone wants to burn a flag.

rjsterry

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

Isn't the French republic secular and aren't all religous effectively banned, so it's not just banning burkhinis and hijabs, but other overtly religious symbols too?

Er, no, religion is a very long way from being banned in France. You know that big building that caught fire last year... It's shaped like a cross.

Smart arsed censored . Read the post. I left out the symbols the first time but it was pretty obvious if you read the post.

I didn't spot the edit; sorry. Religious symbols (with certain exceptions) clearly aren't effectively banned either so the point still stands. FWIW, I think a government legislating on what people can wear is absurd.

Dorset_Boy

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

Isn't the French republic secular and aren't all religous effectively banned, so it's not just banning burkhinis and hijabs, but other overtly religious symbols too?

Er, no, religion is a very long way from being banned in France. You know that big building that caught fire last year... It's shaped like a cross.

Smart arsed censored . Read the post. I left out the symbols the first time but it was pretty obvious if you read the post.

I didn't spot the edit; sorry. Religious symbols (with certain exceptions) clearly aren't effectively banned either so the point still stands. FWIW, I think a government legislating on what people can wear is absurd.

Really? In all circumstances?

TheBigBean

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

Isn't the French republic secular and aren't all religous effectively banned, so it's not just banning burkhinis and hijabs, but other overtly religious symbols too?

Er, no, religion is a very long way from being banned in France. You know that big building that caught fire last year... It's shaped like a cross.

Smart arsed censored . Read the post. I left out the symbols the first time but it was pretty obvious if you read the post.

I didn't spot the edit; sorry. Religious symbols (with certain exceptions) clearly aren't effectively banned either so the point still stands. FWIW, I think a government legislating on what people can wear is absurd.

Really? In all circumstances?

From my limited knowledge I thought they were banned in schools and possibly some government buildings/offices. The burkini is banned in some places for spurious reasons such as it might be more dirty.

My gran used to wear a headscraf. She wasn't religious.

DeVlaeminck

I don't know if it's absurd to legislate against full Islamic covering. It conflicts with the "good" that is the right to wear what you want but the ideology behind women wearing full cover is oppressive and incompatible with liberal Western values. In a way it's similar to balancing free speech against the harm that holocaust denial does. The difference of course is that holocaust deniers are rarely (never?) Jewish whereas women are "choosing" the oppressive ideology in the case of fundamental religion.

rjsterry

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

Isn't the French republic secular and aren't all religous effectively banned, so it's not just banning burkhinis and hijabs, but other overtly religious symbols too?

Er, no, religion is a very long way from being banned in France. You know that big building that caught fire last year... It's shaped like a cross.

Smart arsed censored . Read the post. I left out the symbols the first time but it was pretty obvious if you read the post.

I didn't spot the edit; sorry. Religious symbols (with certain exceptions) clearly aren't effectively banned either so the point still stands. FWIW, I think a government legislating on what people can wear is absurd.

Really? In all circumstances?

I can't think of a situation where it would be of benefit. I think it's a matter for individual businesses or institutions. If we are worried about the wider question of social integration, mandating what people can't wear seems pretty much bound to do the opposite. That's teaching conformity rather than tolerance of different beliefs.

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck said:

I don't know if it's absurd to legislate against full Islamic covering. It conflicts with the "good" that is the right to wear what you want but the ideology behind women wearing full cover is oppressive and incompatible with liberal Western values. In a way it's similar to balancing free speech against the harm that holocaust denial does. The difference of course is that holocaust deniers are rarely (never?) Jewish whereas women are "choosing" the oppressive ideology in the case of fundamental religion.

I think it can be, but not necessarily. One of my projects is near Stamford Hill in North London, which has a big Hassidic Jewish population. The religious dress code is clearly very closely observed, but I don't hear anyone suggesting that this is oppressive or incompatible with liberal values.

I also think that where such dress codes are oppressively enforced by other family members, banning that dress is likely more likely to lead to people being confined to their homes - more oppression rather than less.

kingstongraham

The government saying "you can't wear that, because it's oppressive" is a tough one to square for me.

john80

The full dress get up that covers your face is a step up from pretty much every other religious outfit. The West has a lot of in built prejudice against those that hide their identity. This is just the reality of life in the West. Those that wear this get up are asking 98% of the population to engage with them on terms that they in the main are not that interested in. If I was in a supermarket next to a fully covered person would not engage with them as all the social norms of seeing their facial expressions are gone. It is about as isolationist an approach as moving to the middle East and attending business meetings in a mankini or turning up at a regional office in Peru and expecting them to communicate in English. Good for a laugh but not a winning strategy.

nickice

DeVlaeminck said:

I don't know if it's absurd to legislate against full Islamic covering. It conflicts with the "good" that is the right to wear what you want but the ideology behind women wearing full cover is oppressive and incompatible with liberal Western values. In a way it's similar to balancing free speech against the harm that holocaust denial does. The difference of course is that holocaust deniers are rarely (never?) Jewish whereas women are "choosing" the oppressive ideology in the case of fundamental religion.

There aren't really any rights to balance against in either case.

By banning religious dress, you're not protecting the rights of the général public. People might not like it but we have no right to demand people not do things we don't like.

Similarly, with holocaust denial, it's not really clear what legal rights we're protecting by banning it.

nickice

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.

In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.

The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.

The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.

Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."

It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women

What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.

Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.

Isn't the French republic secular and aren't all religous effectively banned, so it's not just banning burkhinis and hijabs, but other overtly religious symbols too?

Er, no, religion is a very long way from being banned in France. You know that big building that caught fire last year... It's shaped like a cross.

Smart arsed censored . Read the post. I left out the symbols the first time but it was pretty obvious if you read the post.

I didn't spot the edit; sorry. Religious symbols (with certain exceptions) clearly aren't effectively banned either so the point still stands. FWIW, I think a government legislating on what people can wear is absurd.

Really? In all circumstances?

There are certainly rules that you have to wear something but once you're wearing something there is rarely any justifications for banning particular dress.

nickice

So a teacher in Molenbeek showed his class of 10 & 11 year olds a cartoon of Mohamed naked on all fours...He's been suspended (and rightly so). It's cause for suspension showing a cartoon of anyone like that to a young class.

Ben6899

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I don't know if it's absurd to legislate against full Islamic covering. It conflicts with the "good" that is the right to wear what you want but the ideology behind women wearing full cover is oppressive and incompatible with liberal Western values. In a way it's similar to balancing free speech against the harm that holocaust denial does. The difference of course is that holocaust deniers are rarely (never?) Jewish whereas women are "choosing" the oppressive ideology in the case of fundamental religion.

I think it can be, but not necessarily. One of my projects is near Stamford Hill in North London, which has a big Hassidic Jewish population. The religious dress code is clearly very closely observed, but I don't hear anyone suggesting that this is oppressive or incompatible with liberal values.

I also think that where such dress codes are oppressively enforced by other family members, banning that dress is likely more likely to lead to people being confined to their homes - more oppression rather than less.

Interestingly, there are plenty of Jewish people who have moved away from these orthodox communities to lead a more "Western" life where they can do the job they want, spend their weekends how they see fit etc.

I think what people wear is absolutely small beer compared to very strict expectations being placed on their behaviour and life "choices".

But I'm very much on the outside looking in and therefore I don't know the full story.

Not engaging with someone because they're dressed differently though... I mean, wow.

rjsterry

Ben6899 said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I don't know if it's absurd to legislate against full Islamic covering. It conflicts with the "good" that is the right to wear what you want but the ideology behind women wearing full cover is oppressive and incompatible with liberal Western values. In a way it's similar to balancing free speech against the harm that holocaust denial does. The difference of course is that holocaust deniers are rarely (never?) Jewish whereas women are "choosing" the oppressive ideology in the case of fundamental religion.

I think it can be, but not necessarily. One of my projects is near Stamford Hill in North London, which has a big Hassidic Jewish population. The religious dress code is clearly very closely observed, but I don't hear anyone suggesting that this is oppressive or incompatible with liberal values.

I also think that where such dress codes are oppressively enforced by other family members, banning that dress is likely more likely to lead to people being confined to their homes - more oppression rather than less.

Interestingly, there are plenty of Jewish people who have moved away from these orthodox communities to lead a more "Western" life where they can do the job they want, spend their weekends how they see fit etc.

I think what people wear is absolutely small beer compared to very strict expectations being placed on their behaviour and life "choices".

But I'm very much on the outside looking in and therefore I don't know the full story.

Not engaging with someone because they're dressed differently though... I mean, wow.

Absolutely. I guess dress is the first thing people see, so they latch on to that, particularly as it makes some feel a bit uncomfortable. Making a fuss about face coverings is also much easier than dealing with the underlying issues.

Dorset_Boy

Ben, it's the hiding of the face that people struggle with. Very difficult to engage when you can't get and visual response.

Are there any other religions that 'force' people to hide their faces in public?
I lived in Stamford Hill for 3 years and certainly the Jewish community pretty fully engaged and there was no hiding of faces. Sure they dressed differently, but you could still easily engage.

rjsterry

Dorset_Boy said:

Ben, it's the hiding of the face that people struggle with. Very difficult to engage when you can't get and visual response.

Are there any other religions that 'force' people to hide their faces in public?
I lived in Stamford Hill for 3 years and certainly the Jewish community pretty fully engaged and there was no hiding of faces. Sure they dressed differently, but you could still easily engage.

Sure, but if you then insist that people must show their faces in public, this is just likely to lead to lots of people withdrawing further from society. It'll have the opposite to the intended effect.

Ben6899

Dorset_Boy said:

Ben, it's the hiding of the face that people struggle with. Very difficult to engage when you can't get and visual response.

I hate the phrase, but you just have to deal with it.

Dorset_Boy

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Ben, it's the hiding of the face that people struggle with. Very difficult to engage when you can't get and visual response.

Are there any other religions that 'force' people to hide their faces in public?
I lived in Stamford Hill for 3 years and certainly the Jewish community pretty fully engaged and there was no hiding of faces. Sure they dressed differently, but you could still easily engage.

Sure, but if you then insist that people must show their faces in public, this is just likely to lead to lots of people withdrawing further from society. It'll have the opposite to the intended effect.

Maybe, maybe not. Neither situation is compatible with the expectations of western society. Strict islamic laws appear pretty incompatible with equal rights for women and other minorities. The 'when in Rome' scenario seemed to work reasonably well, but now seems to have been pushed to the background. Obviously if western Europeans tried to live life in Middle Eastern countries in the same way they do in Europe they'd end up in jail, for not respecting local customs and rules.

nickice

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Ben, it's the hiding of the face that people struggle with. Very difficult to engage when you can't get and visual response.

Are there any other religions that 'force' people to hide their faces in public?
I lived in Stamford Hill for 3 years and certainly the Jewish community pretty fully engaged and there was no hiding of faces. Sure they dressed differently, but you could still easily engage.

Sure, but if you then insist that people must show their faces in public, this is just likely to lead to lots of people withdrawing further from society. It'll have the opposite to the intended effect.

Maybe, maybe not. Neither situation is compatible with the expectations of western society. Strict islamic laws appear pretty incompatible with equal rights for women and other minorities. The 'when in Rome' scenario seemed to work reasonably well, but now seems to have been pushed to the background. Obviously if western Europeans tried to live life in Middle Eastern countries in the same way they do in Europe they'd end up in jail, for not respecting local customs and rules.

You can't legislate your way out of that particular problem.