French teacher killed

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Fair point. Poor choice of words on my part.

I do think argument's like Nick's - France has welcomed his family from Chechnya so why should he attack it? - are missing the point.

It was to show there are no other reasons for it. If he had been a child in Iraq orphaned by American bombs and had subsequently joined ISIS, I think it'd be fair to say he was, at least partly, doing so to get back at Americans.

But, Chechnya? I just don't see any other reason other than what he gave us (which should be the default anyway)

You realise Islamist terrorism is tied up with Chechen separatism? Just swap Russia for America.

Nothing to do with France.

Neither is the American invasion of Iraq; France was conspicuous in staying out of the Iraq war. It's an extremist ideology: in their eyes *everyone* who isn't a follower is an enemy and a legitimate target.

I think you are making the same mistake and assigning one set of beliefs to a group of people.

nickice

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Fair point. Poor choice of words on my part.

I do think argument's like Nick's - France has welcomed his family from Chechnya so why should he attack it? - are missing the point.

It was to show there are no other reasons for it. If he had been a child in Iraq orphaned by American bombs and had subsequently joined ISIS, I think it'd be fair to say he was, at least partly, doing so to get back at Americans.

But, Chechnya? I just don't see any other reason other than what he gave us (which should be the default anyway)

You realise Islamist terrorism is tied up with Chechen separatism? Just swap Russia for America.

Nothing to do with France.

Neither is the American invasion of Iraq; France was conspicuous in staying out of the Iraq war. It's an extremist ideology: in their eyes *everyone* who isn't a follower is an enemy and a legitimate target.

Not sure about what point you're making here. I know we're desperate to find excuses for people who carry out these attacks and, I'm sure, sometimes there are other reasons (for example, an Iraqi Sunni joining ISIS for protection against shia militia). But, sometimes, the reasons are the exact ones they give even if we refuse to believe them.

rjsterry

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Fair point. Poor choice of words on my part.

I do think argument's like Nick's - France has welcomed his family from Chechnya so why should he attack it? - are missing the point.

It was to show there are no other reasons for it. If he had been a child in Iraq orphaned by American bombs and had subsequently joined ISIS, I think it'd be fair to say he was, at least partly, doing so to get back at Americans.

But, Chechnya? I just don't see any other reason other than what he gave us (which should be the default anyway)

You realise Islamist terrorism is tied up with Chechen separatism? Just swap Russia for America.

Nothing to do with France.

Neither is the American invasion of Iraq; France was conspicuous in staying out of the Iraq war. It's an extremist ideology: in their eyes *everyone* who isn't a follower is an enemy and a legitimate target.

Not sure about what point you're making here. I know we're desperate to find excuses for people who carry out these attacks and, I'm sure, sometimes there are other reasons (for example, an Iraqi Sunni joining ISIS for protection against shia militia). But, sometimes, the reasons are the exact ones they give even if we refuse to believe them.

Who's finding excuses? I'm suggesting he was looking for an opportunity to commit some act of terrorism and the class on freedom of speech with a perceived provocation was the one that presented itself. I'm also suggesting that he didn't come up with the idea entirely out of the blue, but that it is part of a wider context of islamist terrorism, only a small part of which is targeted at supposed acts of blasphemy. That doesn't absolve him of any responsibility.

swjohnsey

DeVlaeminck said:

swjohnsey said:

Would a cartoon of the prophet with a nine year old girl be offensive?

Probably. King John married a 12 year old so it's probably something that wasn't unique to Islam or quite so shocking to people at the time. Aren't there still states in
America where young girls (funny it's never boys) have been married to adults.

True! Mary was around 12 years old when God knocked her up.

ballysmate

swjohnsey said:

DeVlaeminck said:

swjohnsey said:

Would a cartoon of the prophet with a nine year old girl be offensive?

Probably. King John married a 12 year old so it's probably something that wasn't unique to Islam or quite so shocking to people at the time. Aren't there still states in
America where young girls (funny it's never boys) have been married to adults.

True! Mary was around 12 years old when God knocked her up.

So God was a Jewish Epstein and the Archangel Gabriel was his Gisele Maxwell enabler?

Does that count as blasphemy?

Stevo_666

ballysmate said:

swjohnsey said:

DeVlaeminck said:

swjohnsey said:

Would a cartoon of the prophet with a nine year old girl be offensive?

Probably. King John married a 12 year old so it's probably something that wasn't unique to Islam or quite so shocking to people at the time. Aren't there still states in
America where young girls (funny it's never boys) have been married to adults.

True! Mary was around 12 years old when God knocked her up.

So God was a Jewish Epstein and the Archangel Gabriel was his Gisele Maxwell enabler?

Does that count as blasphemy?

This does apparently

https://youtu.be/FQ5YU_spBw0

Blasphemy, as they say, is the ultimate victimless crime.

rick_chasey

Is Nick taking an extremist element of something and casting the entire group with it?

I am shocked.

Something he posted himself to be angry about?

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

Is Nick taking an extremist element of something and casting the entire group with it?

I am shocked.

Something he posted himself to be angry about?

Don't think so, no.

ballysmate

People who are all too keen to label people racist to shut down any dissent, may care to reflect on this.

https://news.sky.com/story/manchester-arena-inquiry-guard-failed-to-stop-bomber-because-he-was-scared-of-being-branded-racist-12115916

rick_chasey

ballysmate said:

People who are all too keen to label people racist to shut down any dissent, may care to reflect on this.

https://news.sky.com/story/manchester-arena-inquiry-guard-failed-to-stop-bomber-because-he-was-scared-of-being-branded-racist-12115916

Doesn’t stop anyone on this forum tbf.

Good of him to come up with an excuse to get lots of people to rally behind him.

rjsterry

Don't think anyone here is doing that either.

ballysmate

I was going to post a pic of Nelson at Copenhagen holding a telescope to his blind eye, wilfully refusing to see, but I don't think that is you. I think you genuinely can't see the damage being done by people being cowed into not expressing, what to most people is the bleedin' obvious.
What a state of affairs when people would rather risk pre adolescent kids being blown up than risk being thought racist.

Rick Chasey, take a bow son, as the unlamented Andy Gray would say.

rjsterry

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue. The French authorities have been pretty unequivocal in their support of free speech, including a public vigil (despite Nick not noticing it). How is that being cowed?

ballysmate

rjsterry said:

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue.

Of course there were many failings and I am not trying to load the blame on this one youngster. My point is the mindset induced in people who are so fearful of being called racist, they will make poor decisions in order to avoid it at tragic cost..

DeVlaeminck

The fear of being branded racist also contributed to the continued abuse of girls by grooming gangs in Rotherham (and probably elsewhere).

nickice

rjsterry said:

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue. The French authorities have been pretty unequivocal in their support of free speech, including a public vigil (despite Nick not noticing it). How is that being cowed?

I did notice it. I mean I live in France so how could I not? However placards saying "je suis Samuel" or "je suis Charlie " change nothing. Republishing does ( to be fair a mayor in Southern France projected the images onto buildings). All this for cartoons that I find pretty silly..

coopster_the_1st

rjsterry said:

Don't think anyone here is doing that either.

Here is the poodle immediately out attempting to defend RC.

The reality is that RC is the person on this forum most likely to try and throw the racist label at others.

rjsterry

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue. The French authorities have been pretty unequivocal in their support of free speech, including a public vigil (despite Nick not noticing it). How is that being cowed?

I did notice it. I mean I live in France so how could I not? However placards saying "je suis Samuel" or "je suis Charlie " change nothing. Republishing does ( to be fair a mayor in Southern France projected the images onto buildings). All this for cartoons that I find pretty silly..

Well I did wonder why you said there hadn't been any protest. If that protest does nothing (and I would argue that it has), then surely neither does some talking head arguing for blasphemy laws on telly.

Pross

coopster_the_1st said:

rjsterry said:

Don't think anyone here is doing that either.

Here is the poodle immediately out attempting to defend RC.

The reality is that RC is the person on this forum most likely to try and throw the racist label at others.

I thought he was aiming that at Rick and his comment about getting something to rally behind.

nickice

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue. The French authorities have been pretty unequivocal in their support of free speech, including a public vigil (despite Nick not noticing it). How is that being cowed?

I did notice it. I mean I live in France so how could I not? However placards saying "je suis Samuel" or "je suis Charlie " change nothing. Republishing does ( to be fair a mayor in Southern France projected the images onto buildings). All this for cartoons that I find pretty silly..

Well I did wonder why you said there hadn't been any protest. If that protest does nothing (and I would argue that it has), then surely neither does some talking head arguing for blasphemy laws on telly.

What I actually meant was that there was more protest worldwide from Muslims about Macron's comments (that he wouldn't condemn the cartoons) than there was from Muslims about someone beheading a teacher in the name of their religion. It's exactly the kind of attitude Nabila Ramdani has.

A bit of perspective would be a good idea. Michael Portillo was right about the period of silence.

nickice

rick_chasey said:

ballysmate said:

People who are all too keen to label people racist to shut down any dissent, may care to reflect on this.

https://news.sky.com/story/manchester-arena-inquiry-guard-failed-to-stop-bomber-because-he-was-scared-of-being-branded-racist-12115916

Doesn’t stop anyone on this forum tbf.

Good of him to come up with an excuse to get lots of people to rally behind him.

Because it's basically an anonymous forum. Of course, I think it's be fairly easy to find you and me (and quite a lot of others) but there is little cost to being called a racist.

I think you understand the difference and you're just being your usual disingenuous self.

rick_chasey

ballysmate said:

I was going to post a pic of Nelson at Copenhagen holding a telescope to his blind eye, wilfully refusing to see, but I don't think that is you. I think you genuinely can't see the damage being done by people being cowed into not expressing, what to most people is the bleedin' obvious.
What a state of affairs when people would rather risk pre adolescent kids being blown up than risk being thought racist.

Rick Chasey, take a bow son, as the unlamented Andy Gray would say.

I would take it more seriously when it is not always used in the context of “its worst to be accused of racism than being racist”.

I am not stupid enough to think that there are no problems swinging the other way.

But this isn’t a binary thing. Avoiding going after crims because they’re a certain race isn’t the opposite you think it is.

That you are preoccupied with this and not also the problems of actual racism means I’m sceptical of your good faith in this argument

rick_chasey

To be clear - both things can be true - the police can be institutionally racist and they can be afraid to legitimately go after victims for fear of backlash.

If anything one causes the other

kingstongraham

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue. The French authorities have been pretty unequivocal in their support of free speech, including a public vigil (despite Nick not noticing it). How is that being cowed?

I did notice it. I mean I live in France so how could I not? However placards saying "je suis Samuel" or "je suis Charlie " change nothing. Republishing does ( to be fair a mayor in Southern France projected the images onto buildings). All this for cartoons that I find pretty silly..

Well I did wonder why you said there hadn't been any protest. If that protest does nothing (and I would argue that it has), then surely neither does some talking head arguing for blasphemy laws on telly.

What I actually meant was that there was more protest worldwide from Muslims about Macron's comments (that he wouldn't condemn the cartoons) than there was from Muslims about someone beheading a teacher in the name of their religion. It's exactly the kind of attitude Nabila Ramdani has.

A bit of perspective would be a good idea. Michael Portillo was right about the period of silence.

So you're saying that she absolutely had the right to say it, but you think it would have been more respectful if she didn't?

kingstongraham

.

davidof

fiverr.logoseo said:

For generations, public schools assimilated immigrant children into French society by instilling the nation’s ideals. The beheading of a teacher has raised doubts about whether that model still works.

The model may have worked when there was little immigration but hasn't worked for a long time.

My son goes to high school in an area of heavy Italian immigration (the obvious sign is they drive ALFAs or FIATs rather than Citroens. The kids (third or fourth generation) support the Azzuri and think of themselves as Italian. None of them can even speak Italian. They all have Italian first names like Enzo or Lucia.

rjsterry

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue. The French authorities have been pretty unequivocal in their support of free speech, including a public vigil (despite Nick not noticing it). How is that being cowed?

I did notice it. I mean I live in France so how could I not? However placards saying "je suis Samuel" or "je suis Charlie " change nothing. Republishing does ( to be fair a mayor in Southern France projected the images onto buildings). All this for cartoons that I find pretty silly..

Well I did wonder why you said there hadn't been any protest. If that protest does nothing (and I would argue that it has), then surely neither does some talking head arguing for blasphemy laws on telly.

What I actually meant was that there was more protest worldwide from Muslims about Macron's comments (that he wouldn't condemn the cartoons) than there was from Muslims about someone beheading a teacher in the name of their religion. It's exactly the kind of attitude Nabila Ramdani has.

A bit of perspective would be a good idea. Michael Portillo was right about the period of silence.

Yes, the idiot flag-burners are a bunch of galloping hypocrites as are their sponsors who also profess to be devout followers. No idea what the reference to Portillo means.

nickice

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue. The French authorities have been pretty unequivocal in their support of free speech, including a public vigil (despite Nick not noticing it). How is that being cowed?

I did notice it. I mean I live in France so how could I not? However placards saying "je suis Samuel" or "je suis Charlie " change nothing. Republishing does ( to be fair a mayor in Southern France projected the images onto buildings). All this for cartoons that I find pretty silly..

Well I did wonder why you said there hadn't been any protest. If that protest does nothing (and I would argue that it has), then surely neither does some talking head arguing for blasphemy laws on telly.

What I actually meant was that there was more protest worldwide from Muslims about Macron's comments (that he wouldn't condemn the cartoons) than there was from Muslims about someone beheading a teacher in the name of their religion. It's exactly the kind of attitude Nabila Ramdani has.

A bit of perspective would be a good idea. Michael Portillo was right about the period of silence.

Yes, the idiot flag-burners are a bunch of galloping hypocrites as are their sponsors who also profess to be devout followers. No idea what the reference to Portillo means.

in that video I posted, Michael Portillo said that after the Charlie Hebdo massacre and the publishing of the edition with Mohamed crying saying 'all is forgiven', Nabila Ramdani and any other Muslim complaining about it should shut up. In more polite terms of course.

nickice

kingstongraham said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue. The French authorities have been pretty unequivocal in their support of free speech, including a public vigil (despite Nick not noticing it). How is that being cowed?

I did notice it. I mean I live in France so how could I not? However placards saying "je suis Samuel" or "je suis Charlie " change nothing. Republishing does ( to be fair a mayor in Southern France projected the images onto buildings). All this for cartoons that I find pretty silly..

Well I did wonder why you said there hadn't been any protest. If that protest does nothing (and I would argue that it has), then surely neither does some talking head arguing for blasphemy laws on telly.

What I actually meant was that there was more protest worldwide from Muslims about Macron's comments (that he wouldn't condemn the cartoons) than there was from Muslims about someone beheading a teacher in the name of their religion. It's exactly the kind of attitude Nabila Ramdani has.

A bit of perspective would be a good idea. Michael Portillo was right about the period of silence.

So you're saying that she absolutely had the right to say it, but you think it would have been more respectful if she didn't?

Yes that's it. Just like the debates on free speech after Charlie Hebdo. It might make people think that Nabila Ramdani doesn't have much sympathy for those murdered if she carries on.

rjsterry

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

Possibly you're loading rather a lot on one security guard making one bad decision, and ignoring the multiple and much bigger errors made by the security services in that incident. Also not sure why you are trying to shoehorn that into a thread about a different incident and a different issue. The French authorities have been pretty unequivocal in their support of free speech, including a public vigil (despite Nick not noticing it). How is that being cowed?

I did notice it. I mean I live in France so how could I not? However placards saying "je suis Samuel" or "je suis Charlie " change nothing. Republishing does ( to be fair a mayor in Southern France projected the images onto buildings). All this for cartoons that I find pretty silly..

Well I did wonder why you said there hadn't been any protest. If that protest does nothing (and I would argue that it has), then surely neither does some talking head arguing for blasphemy laws on telly.

What I actually meant was that there was more protest worldwide from Muslims about Macron's comments (that he wouldn't condemn the cartoons) than there was from Muslims about someone beheading a teacher in the name of their religion. It's exactly the kind of attitude Nabila Ramdani has.

A bit of perspective would be a good idea. Michael Portillo was right about the period of silence.

Yes, the idiot flag-burners are a bunch of galloping hypocrites as are their sponsors who also profess to be devout followers. No idea what the reference to Portillo means.

in that video I posted, Michael Portillo said that after the Charlie Hebdo massacre and the publishing of the edition with Mohamed crying saying 'all is forgiven', Nabila Ramdani and any other Muslim complaining about it should shut up. In more polite terms of course.

I see. It would certainly be more diplomatic.