French teacher killed
Comments
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No limits on freedom of expression is a pretty extreme position.0
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You occasionally mention it bothers you when you feel out of step with the forum.shortfall said:
One for the trivial things that cheer you up thread.😄nickice said:
There is some good news today!rick_chasey said:‘kin ‘ell. I am never going to respond to you again.
I do fear for your minority students
Of course you clearly don't understand the point I'm making but what's new?
I’d suggest siding with people who want to legalise holocaust denial will not help that, regardless of their reason.
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I don't believe that at all. I think the US Supreme Court gets it mostly right. They make exceptions for things like defamation, obsenity, threats etc. Holocaust denial is not illegal in the UK or USA. Is that an extremist position?kingstongraham said:No limits on freedom of expression is a pretty extreme position.
Cartoons depicting Mohammed would not be illegal in the USA.0 -
So you don't believe in no limits on freedom of expression.nickice said:
I don't believe that at all. I think the US Supreme Court gets it mostly right. They make exceptions for things like defamation, obsenity, threats etc. Holocaust denial is not illegal in the UK or USA. Is that an extremist position?kingstongraham said:No limits on freedom of expression is a pretty extreme position.
Cartoons depicting Mohammed would not be illegal in the USA.0 -
there is no justification at allnickice said:
Because it's used, with at least some justification, as an argument as to why depictions of Mohammed should be banned. Once you limit freedom of expression in one particular area, it's hard to justify not restricting it in other areas.rick_chasey said:
What practical reason is there to remove the holocaust denial law?nickice said:
This is a fair point: France doesn't particularly believe in freedom of expression. The answer is not to limit it further. The answer is to remove laws on holocaust denial and hate speech etc.TheBigBean said:
French society is very tolerant though. Defends the right to depict the prophet as a terrorist, but can't cope with a burkhini on the beach.nickice said:
Probably a result of him feeling alienated... Definitely the fault of French society though and probably some cartoons somewhere.ballysmate said:
I'm sure it is just a coincidence.swjohnsey said:So according to the American press some guy killed three in France with a knife and he was shouting some phrase in Arabic.
Why is that even on your radar?
holocaust denial is falsely claiming that millions weren't killed by the nazis, saying otherwise is not freedom of expression, it is lying
lies should never be protected speech, unfortunately it's widely tolerated in politicians, that's bad for society
mocking people's imaginary friends is not lyingmy bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
Do you think the UK needs to criminalise it then?rick_chasey said:
You occasionally mention it bothers you when you feel out of step with the forum.shortfall said:
One for the trivial things that cheer you up thread.😄nickice said:
There is some good news today!rick_chasey said:‘kin ‘ell. I am never going to respond to you again.
I do fear for your minority students
Of course you clearly don't understand the point I'm making but what's new?
I’d suggest siding with people who want to legalise holocaust denial will not help that, regardless of their reason.1 -
Can we all say that?shortfall said:
One for the trivial things that cheer you up thread.😄nickice said:
There is some good news today!rick_chasey said:‘kin ‘ell. I am never going to respond to you again.
I do fear for your minority students
Of course you clearly don't understand the point I'm making but what's new?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]2 -
No, I don't. I think most free speech 'absolutists' misuse the term as they don't believe defamation shouldn't exist, for example.kingstongraham said:
So you don't believe in no limits on freedom of expression.nickice said:
I don't believe that at all. I think the US Supreme Court gets it mostly right. They make exceptions for things like defamation, obsenity, threats etc. Holocaust denial is not illegal in the UK or USA. Is that an extremist position?kingstongraham said:No limits on freedom of expression is a pretty extreme position.
Cartoons depicting Mohammed would not be illegal in the USA.0 -
I’m relaxed about it not being illegal as to make it illegal would stir the nest and make it an issue, which it shouldn’t be, but if it was illegal i would not remotely touch it as legalising it only benefits far right deniers.TheBigBean said:
Do you think the UK needs to criminalise it then?rick_chasey said:
You occasionally mention it bothers you when you feel out of step with the forum.shortfall said:
One for the trivial things that cheer you up thread.😄nickice said:
There is some good news today!rick_chasey said:‘kin ‘ell. I am never going to respond to you again.
I do fear for your minority students
Of course you clearly don't understand the point I'm making but what's new?
I’d suggest siding with people who want to legalise holocaust denial will not help that, regardless of their reason.
The far right is very good at hiding their intentions and playing between the lines and their preoccupation with “free speech” is a good example of it.
They use it to appeal to more democratically minded people but the motive is to allow space for far right views to be held in a more legitimate form.
This is an example of it and I make a personal point never to engage in holocaust deniers as they do not need the publicity. They are so wrong it is not worthy of discussion, not least as it is a position taken to harm and hurt the Jewish community.
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Why obscenity? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?nickice said:
No, I don't. I think most free speech 'absolutists' misuse the term as they don't believe defamation shouldn't exist, for example.kingstongraham said:
So you don't believe in no limits on freedom of expression.nickice said:
I don't believe that at all. I think the US Supreme Court gets it mostly right. They make exceptions for things like defamation, obsenity, threats etc. Holocaust denial is not illegal in the UK or USA. Is that an extremist position?kingstongraham said:No limits on freedom of expression is a pretty extreme position.
Cartoons depicting Mohammed would not be illegal in the USA.0 -
That's the US Supreme Court's position. I did say it gets it mostly right. I don't know enough about obscenity to get into this debate but I'll have a look later. I do know that it's interpreted narrowly.kingstongraham said:
Why obscenity? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?nickice said:
No, I don't. I think most free speech 'absolutists' misuse the term as they don't believe defamation shouldn't exist, for example.kingstongraham said:
So you don't believe in no limits on freedom of expression.nickice said:
I don't believe that at all. I think the US Supreme Court gets it mostly right. They make exceptions for things like defamation, obsenity, threats etc. Holocaust denial is not illegal in the UK or USA. Is that an extremist position?kingstongraham said:No limits on freedom of expression is a pretty extreme position.
Cartoons depicting Mohammed would not be illegal in the USA.0 -
I would imagine they would oppose criminalising it though.nickice said:
No, I don't. I think most free speech 'absolutists' misuse the term as they don't believe defamation shouldn't exist, for example.kingstongraham said:
So you don't believe in no limits on freedom of expression.nickice said:
I don't believe that at all. I think the US Supreme Court gets it mostly right. They make exceptions for things like defamation, obsenity, threats etc. Holocaust denial is not illegal in the UK or USA. Is that an extremist position?kingstongraham said:No limits on freedom of expression is a pretty extreme position.
Cartoons depicting Mohammed would not be illegal in the USA.0 -
I hope so but they also have to think about laws against child pornography or threats. Having said that, a lot of hate speech laws engage civil law not criminal law.TheBigBean said:
I would imagine they would oppose criminalising it though.nickice said:
No, I don't. I think most free speech 'absolutists' misuse the term as they don't believe defamation shouldn't exist, for example.kingstongraham said:
So you don't believe in no limits on freedom of expression.nickice said:
I don't believe that at all. I think the US Supreme Court gets it mostly right. They make exceptions for things like defamation, obsenity, threats etc. Holocaust denial is not illegal in the UK or USA. Is that an extremist position?kingstongraham said:No limits on freedom of expression is a pretty extreme position.
Cartoons depicting Mohammed would not be illegal in the USA.
I'm pretty sure criminal defamation still exists in some European countries (or did until very recently).
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As nobody on here has made that argument it looks a little like tilting at windmills.nickice said:rjsterry said:
Not sure what gave you that idea.david37 said:
As i understand it the muslims are the true victims herenickice said:The Nice attack is really shocking. A clear attack on Christians (and not the first). A 70-year-old woman was in there praying and he slit her throat so badly she was almost decapitated. Awful stuff.
Tbf, I was mocking the usual reaction.rjsterry said:
Always pays to wait for details to be reported. The murderer travelled to France less than a month ago.nickice said:
Probably a result of him feeling alienated... Definitely the fault of French society though and probably some cartoons somewhere.ballysmate said:
I'm sure it is just a coincidence.swjohnsey said:So according to the American press some guy killed three in France with a knife and he was shouting some phrase in Arabic.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It's commonly heard/seen in the media. I didn't know any mocking comments would have to be against arguments made on the forum...rjsterry said:
As nobody on here has made that argument it looks a little like tilting at windmills.nickice said:rjsterry said:
Not sure what gave you that idea.david37 said:
As i understand it the muslims are the true victims herenickice said:The Nice attack is really shocking. A clear attack on Christians (and not the first). A 70-year-old woman was in there praying and he slit her throat so badly she was almost decapitated. Awful stuff.
Tbf, I was mocking the usual reaction.rjsterry said:
Always pays to wait for details to be reported. The murderer travelled to France less than a month ago.nickice said:
Probably a result of him feeling alienated... Definitely the fault of French society though and probably some cartoons somewhere.ballysmate said:
I'm sure it is just a coincidence.swjohnsey said:So according to the American press some guy killed three in France with a knife and he was shouting some phrase in Arabic.
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https://thecritic.co.uk/mind-your-language-even-in-your-own-home/
Meanwhile on the subject of free speech, over the border in Scotland this is absolutely chilling from the SNP.1 -
Yeah it’s problematic though as ever with the law the enforceability is as important when drawing these up.shortfall said:https://thecritic.co.uk/mind-your-language-even-in-your-own-home/
Meanwhile on the subject of free speech, over the border in Scotland this is absolutely chilling from the SNP.
The problem is you are in an argument as above where genuinely nefarious people are using the free speech argument to allow for the space for their nefarious behaviour so those who are looking out for the victims of this are running out of good ideas so they start coming up with bad ones like this.0 -
It depends what your reason for banning holocaust denial is. If it's to avoid it happening again, you just look at countries that don't have a law against it and look at rates of antisemitism compared to countries that do ban holocaust denial.sungod said:
there is no justification at allnickice said:
Because it's used, with at least some justification, as an argument as to why depictions of Mohammed should be banned. Once you limit freedom of expression in one particular area, it's hard to justify not restricting it in other areas.rick_chasey said:
What practical reason is there to remove the holocaust denial law?nickice said:
This is a fair point: France doesn't particularly believe in freedom of expression. The answer is not to limit it further. The answer is to remove laws on holocaust denial and hate speech etc.TheBigBean said:
French society is very tolerant though. Defends the right to depict the prophet as a terrorist, but can't cope with a burkhini on the beach.nickice said:
Probably a result of him feeling alienated... Definitely the fault of French society though and probably some cartoons somewhere.ballysmate said:
I'm sure it is just a coincidence.swjohnsey said:So according to the American press some guy killed three in France with a knife and he was shouting some phrase in Arabic.
Why is that even on your radar?
holocaust denial is falsely claiming that millions weren't killed by the nazis, saying otherwise is not freedom of expression, it is lying
lies should never be protected speech, unfortunately it's widely tolerated in politicians, that's bad for society
mocking people's imaginary friends is not lying
If it's just about not being able to deny facts, then why limit that to the holocaust?
On the other hand, if it's to so as to not cause offence then why not ban cartoons of Mohammed?
Education about the horrors of the holocaust is far more important than banning denying it. Now, I'm not about to start a campaign to repeal the laws against holocaust denial but I'm also aware that it's problematic to claim that France believes in free expression (see 'apology for terrorism' as another ridiculous offence) while having those laws on the statute books.
I also have to say, and I've probably been guilty of it in the past, that I don't think the terms 'sky fairy' or 'imaginary friend' are particularly helpful.
Disagree about lying not being protected as free speech (in a general sense as there are already exceptions in criminal law in fraud, perjury etc.) as that would be unworkable and authoritarian.0 -
Is it? I've not seen that in relation to this incident but I guess if you go looking for it. I did see the ludicrous Twitter thread from the Malaysian former prime minister who seemed to blame the incident on bikinis and nudist beaches, which is a new one.nickice said:
It's commonly heard/seen in the media. I didn't know any mocking comments would have to be against arguments made on the forum...rjsterry said:
As nobody on here has made that argument it looks a little like tilting at windmills.nickice said:rjsterry said:
Not sure what gave you that idea.david37 said:
As i understand it the muslims are the true victims herenickice said:The Nice attack is really shocking. A clear attack on Christians (and not the first). A 70-year-old woman was in there praying and he slit her throat so badly she was almost decapitated. Awful stuff.
Tbf, I was mocking the usual reaction.rjsterry said:
Always pays to wait for details to be reported. The murderer travelled to France less than a month ago.nickice said:
Probably a result of him feeling alienated... Definitely the fault of French society though and probably some cartoons somewhere.ballysmate said:
I'm sure it is just a coincidence.swjohnsey said:So according to the American press some guy killed three in France with a knife and he was shouting some phrase in Arabic.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
shortfall said:
https://thecritic.co.uk/mind-your-language-even-in-your-own-home/
Meanwhile on the subject of free speech, over the border in Scotland this is absolutely chilling from the SNP.
I really hope it won't pass. I'm sure Humza Yousaf thinks he's doing the right thing but it's the result that matters. It's a big problem with career politicians in that they seem to not live in the real worrld.shortfall said:https://thecritic.co.uk/mind-your-language-even-in-your-own-home/
Meanwhile on the subject of free speech, over the border in Scotland this is absolutely chilling from the SNP.
Never mind though, if you're against it that's, obviously, because you just want to air your 'far-right' views.1 -
Yes, it is but,, not so far in this incident to be fair . 'They're just mentally ill'(hugely offensive to those suffering from mental illness) is another one.rjsterry said:
Is it? I've not seen that in relation to this incident but I guess if you go looking for it. I did see the ludicrous Twitter thread from the Malaysian former prime minister who seemed to blame the incident on bikinis and nudist beaches, which is a new one.nickice said:
It's commonly heard/seen in the media. I didn't know any mocking comments would have to be against arguments made on the forum...rjsterry said:
As nobody on here has made that argument it looks a little like tilting at windmills.nickice said:rjsterry said:
Not sure what gave you that idea.david37 said:
As i understand it the muslims are the true victims herenickice said:The Nice attack is really shocking. A clear attack on Christians (and not the first). A 70-year-old woman was in there praying and he slit her throat so badly she was almost decapitated. Awful stuff.
Tbf, I was mocking the usual reaction.rjsterry said:
Always pays to wait for details to be reported. The murderer travelled to France less than a month ago.nickice said:
Probably a result of him feeling alienated... Definitely the fault of French society though and probably some cartoons somewhere.ballysmate said:
I'm sure it is just a coincidence.swjohnsey said:So according to the American press some guy killed three in France with a knife and he was shouting some phrase in Arabic.
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That the Islamist terrorists want to provoke and escalate a conflict between "the west" and "Islam" seems a reasonable assumption. Associating all Muslims with their horrific actions really looks like it helps them along with that.
Condemn the terrorism and the extremists that support it.1 -
An argument for not banning holocaust denial from that famous far-right fascist Timothy Garton Ash-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/jan/18/comment.secondworldwar0 -
It's interesting that the two muslim women who were stabbed and racially abused near the Eifel Tower haven't been mentioned on this thread.0
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Fair point that. I did read the reports of that and it sounded like an incident that took place after an argument about a dog rather than two non-Muslim women going out looking for Muslims to stab.TheBigBean said:It's interesting that the two muslim women who were stabbed and racially abused near the Eifel Tower haven't been mentioned on this thread.
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Entirely predictable, though. Attempted murder according to reports. All playing into the hands of both sets of extremists.TheBigBean said:It's interesting that the two muslim women who were stabbed and racially abused near the Eifel Tower haven't been mentioned on this thread.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.
The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.
In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.
The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.
The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.
Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."
It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women1 -
In fairness, on the face of it someone finding a cartoon offensive sounds equally implausible as the reason why someone would commit murder, so you can understand why people might look for other explanations. The perception that mental illness = dangerous is unfortunately fairly common.nickice said:
Yes, it is but,, not so far in this incident to be fair . 'They're just mentally ill'(hugely offensive to those suffering from mental illness) is another one.rjsterry said:
Is it? I've not seen that in relation to this incident but I guess if you go looking for it. I did see the ludicrous Twitter thread from the Malaysian former prime minister who seemed to blame the incident on bikinis and nudist beaches, which is a new one.nickice said:
It's commonly heard/seen in the media. I didn't know any mocking comments would have to be against arguments made on the forum...rjsterry said:
As nobody on here has made that argument it looks a little like tilting at windmills.nickice said:rjsterry said:
Not sure what gave you that idea.david37 said:
As i understand it the muslims are the true victims herenickice said:The Nice attack is really shocking. A clear attack on Christians (and not the first). A 70-year-old woman was in there praying and he slit her throat so badly she was almost decapitated. Awful stuff.
Tbf, I was mocking the usual reaction.rjsterry said:
Always pays to wait for details to be reported. The murderer travelled to France less than a month ago.nickice said:
Probably a result of him feeling alienated... Definitely the fault of French society though and probably some cartoons somewhere.ballysmate said:
I'm sure it is just a coincidence.swjohnsey said:So according to the American press some guy killed three in France with a knife and he was shouting some phrase in Arabic.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I understand that point and I also think it's connected with the fact that people refuse to believe Islamist terrorists when they tell us why they do what they do.rjsterry said:
In fairness, on the face of it someone finding a cartoon offensive sounds equally implausible as the reason why someone would commit murder, so you can understand why people might look for other explanations. The perception that mental illness = dangerous is unfortunately fairly common.nickice said:
Yes, it is but,, not so far in this incident to be fair . 'They're just mentally ill'(hugely offensive to those suffering from mental illness) is another one.rjsterry said:
Is it? I've not seen that in relation to this incident but I guess if you go looking for it. I did see the ludicrous Twitter thread from the Malaysian former prime minister who seemed to blame the incident on bikinis and nudist beaches, which is a new one.nickice said:
It's commonly heard/seen in the media. I didn't know any mocking comments would have to be against arguments made on the forum...rjsterry said:
As nobody on here has made that argument it looks a little like tilting at windmills.nickice said:rjsterry said:
Not sure what gave you that idea.david37 said:
As i understand it the muslims are the true victims herenickice said:The Nice attack is really shocking. A clear attack on Christians (and not the first). A 70-year-old woman was in there praying and he slit her throat so badly she was almost decapitated. Awful stuff.
Tbf, I was mocking the usual reaction.rjsterry said:
Always pays to wait for details to be reported. The murderer travelled to France less than a month ago.nickice said:
Probably a result of him feeling alienated... Definitely the fault of French society though and probably some cartoons somewhere.ballysmate said:
I'm sure it is just a coincidence.swjohnsey said:So according to the American press some guy killed three in France with a knife and he was shouting some phrase in Arabic.
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What's it doing about that? As outsider looking on, it seems to be encouraging the publication of cartoons, banning burkhinis, banning hijabs etc.nickice said:"The women accused over the assault were drunk when they came across a group of Muslim women and children in the Champ de Mars park at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.
The Muslim family complained about the other women's dog, saying they felt threatened by it.
In the ensuing row one of the women with the dog pulled a knife and stabbed two of the veiled women, aged 19 and 40.
The 40-year-old woman sustained six stab wounds and is being treated in hospital for a perforated lung.
The younger victim was stabbed three times and was also treated in hospital but has since been discharged.
Both victims claimed their attackers called them "dirty Arabs" and told them: "This is not your home."
It doesn't surprise me at all that this took place though, with the facts we know so far, it's going to be difficult to call it terrorism or even a revenge attack. France has a real racism problem against those of North African origin.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201022-two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim-women
Doesn't sound like the police took it all that seriously as well which hardly helps.0
