Grumpy French (contains doping talk)...

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  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 39,859
    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    joe2019 said:

    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:

    It's not just the French though. British libel laws being what they are, the British press have been more circumspect, but the Telegraph and Guardian have both raised questions.


    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.
    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.

    The only "truth" , as you put it, which actually relates to Pogacar, is that he was 10 in 2008.
    The rest is just vacuously infers the possibility of guilt through association.
    So, you seriously think he won Le tour clean :)


    I don't know. But I do know two things.

    1. Doping scandals used to have proper drugs. Now people are grasping at saline drips, ventolin and ketones for their scandal fix.

    2. In 2018 Tadej Pogacar was not just the best pre-pro talent, but to some observers the best for several years. Last season was the best by a first year pro for many years.
    WvA was the most incredible performance of the Tour for me. Pogacar not only was outstanding as a junior but was outstanding in the Vuelta last year, so I fully expected him to be up there.

    I can't think of a time when we've had a rider driving on the flat, winning sprint finishes, doing huge pulls on mountains, and then hanging in there sufficiently to be fairly high up in GC (top 20 wasn't he?). Perhaps the nearest comparison we have is Kwia, who can do all of those things, but he had to sit up on various stages in order to recover sufficiently to do them, hence he was nearly an hour behind Wout on GC, despite having gained a chunk back by being given the freedom to hunt stages).

    As others have mentioned, probably the last time there has been such a rider is Sean Kelly, and Kelly was able to do well on GC as the protected rider, not as the 4th or 5th carriage in his team's mountain train. You could also argue that the 80s were an era in which riders did successfully complete across all disciplines, whereas now is far more selective, and therefore much rarer to get someone that can be as good in something like Paris-Roubaix as they can up an Alpine climb.

    That's not to say WvA is cheating of course, just that his performance was the likes of which I haven't seen for a very long time.
    I think his ability to still be sprinting between mountain stages and limit his losses after his turn in the mountain train was just more of a sign that JV didn't master the train tactic as much as people were saying (possibly because their own team leader was near the limit). Compare the way he was able to recover and sit on Bernal's wheel on the one stage with some of the Sky train riders in the past who looked like they were going to have to get off and walk.
  • Kwait parking it after an epic turn
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,099
    RichN95. said:



    2. In 2018 Tadej Pogacar was not just the best pre-pro talent, but to some observers the best for several years. Last season was the best by a first year pro for many years.

    He liked a bit of late drama even then. Stage 10 (final stage) of the Tour de l'Avenir 2018. Pogacar, in yellow, is isolated (as he has been all race) in a group of ten or so including Arensman, Mader and Vlasov who are within a minute to a minute and half off the race lead plus riders of the calibre of Dunbar and Sosa. Riders have been launching attack after attack up the penultimate climb of the day, each of which Pogacar has chased down. Everything seems to be under control. Then, on the descent to the final climb, this happens (@ 1'10" or thereabouts) leaving Pogacar alone and having to chase back on to the group of favourites who are going full tilt up the Glandon in pursuit of Mader who has managed to do a Hirschi style descent (the one where he doesn't fall off) and is a minute or so up the road.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl1P_aWq04g
    Team My Man 2022:

    Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,126
    DeadCalm said:

    RichN95. said:



    2. In 2018 Tadej Pogacar was not just the best pre-pro talent, but to some observers the best for several years. Last season was the best by a first year pro for many years.

    He liked a bit of late drama even then. Stage 10 (final stage) of the Tour de l'Avenir 2018. Pogacar, in yellow, is isolated (as he has been all race) in a group of ten or so including Arensman, Mader and Vlasov who are within a minute to a minute and half off the race lead plus riders of the calibre of Dunbar and Sosa. Riders have been launching attack after attack up the penultimate climb of the day, each of which Pogacar has chased down. Everything seems to be under control. Then, on the descent to the final climb, this happens (@ 1'10" or thereabouts) leaving Pogacar alone and having to chase back on to the group of favourites who are going full tilt up the Glandon in pursuit of Mader who has managed to do a Hirschi style descent (the one where he doesn't fall off) and is a minute or so up the road.

    The previous day (with a GC lead of just 7s) he just rode away from a similar group of 13 and beat them by a minute
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,099
    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:

    RichN95. said:



    2. In 2018 Tadej Pogacar was not just the best pre-pro talent, but to some observers the best for several years. Last season was the best by a first year pro for many years.

    He liked a bit of late drama even then. Stage 10 (final stage) of the Tour de l'Avenir 2018. Pogacar, in yellow, is isolated (as he has been all race) in a group of ten or so including Arensman, Mader and Vlasov who are within a minute to a minute and half off the race lead plus riders of the calibre of Dunbar and Sosa. Riders have been launching attack after attack up the penultimate climb of the day, each of which Pogacar has chased down. Everything seems to be under control. Then, on the descent to the final climb, this happens (@ 1'10" or thereabouts) leaving Pogacar alone and having to chase back on to the group of favourites who are going full tilt up the Glandon in pursuit of Mader who has managed to do a Hirschi style descent (the one where he doesn't fall off) and is a minute or so up the road.

    The previous day (with a GC lead of just 7s) he just rode away from a similar group of 13 and beat them by a minute
    Indeed. It was the first time I'd ever followed the Tour de l'Avenir but I suspect it was an exceptional year. As well as Pogacar, Vlasov, Sosa and Dunbar, there were some very good riders in that race. I believe all of the top 14 are now riding for World Tour teams. Oh, and Hirschi finished 24th.
    Team My Man 2022:

    Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet
  • zest28
    zest28 Posts: 403
    edited September 2020

    Well, WvA was pretty ridiculous, to be fair. I'm not sure I would go quite this far though...

    He’s a cyclocross rider. They are better at high intensity efforts than road cyclists. So no surprise here.

    If the French start blaming on doping rather than being specialized in these sort of things ....
  • CX Bears no resemblance to road. A lot of the best road riders come from a MTB background. CX isn’t MTB. It’s like MTB light.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,190
    edited September 2020
    zest28 said:

    Well, WvA was pretty ridiculous, to be fair. I'm not sure I would go quite this far though...

    He’s a cyclocross rider. They are better at high intensity efforts than road cyclists. So no surprise here.

    If the French start blaming on doping rather than being specialized in these sort of things ....
    That's a load of rubbish.

    CX =/= pulling on the front of a mountain train on a HC climb.

    Sprints and classics type stages I can see, there's a history of that.

    That doesn't mean I think he's doping, but I do think he's a ridiculous freak.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,319
    It does mean being strong all all sorts of different efforts though
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,099
    ddraver said:

    It does mean being strong all all sorts of different efforts though

    A cyclocross race lasts how long?
    Team My Man 2022:

    Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,319
    About the same as a long Alpine Climb...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,099
    ddraver said:

    About the same as a long Alpine Climb...

    How often do TDF riders ride a single Alpine climb? I'm not disputing that WVA is awesome. I just don't think the efforts in cross equate to those in road racing. Not saying that one is harder than the other either. Just saying that they're not the same.
    Team My Man 2022:

    Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,190
    ddraver said:

    About the same as a long Alpine Climb...

    Not after several other Alpine climbs you've done already though... when you did a load of climbs the day before, and the day before...

    The guy is clearly a massive engine, but claiming we shouldn't be surprised because he's so good at CX doesn't follow. We absolutely should be surprised.

  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    As I posted on the previous page JV clearly knew what he was potentially capable of to sign him up two years before he was available to ride for them.
  • joe2019
    joe2019 Posts: 1,338

    ddraver said:

    About the same as a long Alpine Climb...

    Not after several other Alpine climbs you've done already though... when you did a load of climbs the day before, and the day before...

    The guy is clearly a massive engine, but claiming we shouldn't be surprised because he's so good at CX doesn't follow. We absolutely should be surprised.

    'Sometimes everything is wrong'

    REM - Everybody Hurts Sometimes
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,319

    ddraver said:

    About the same as a long Alpine Climb...

    Not after several other Alpine climbs you've done already though... when you did a load of climbs the day before, and the day before...

    The guy is clearly a massive engine, but claiming we shouldn't be surprised because he's so good at CX doesn't follow. We absolutely should be surprised.

    That's not engine though, that's recovery. And it's also highly dependent on how the previous climbs were ridden.

    I don't understand why it offends so many people on here, it doesnt seem to be controversial anywhere else, but the experiences of the last few months keep adding up...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    joe2019 said:

    ddraver said:

    About the same as a long Alpine Climb...

    Not after several other Alpine climbs you've done already though... when you did a load of climbs the day before, and the day before...

    The guy is clearly a massive engine, but claiming we shouldn't be surprised because he's so good at CX doesn't follow. We absolutely should be surprised.

    'Sometimes everything is wrong'

    REM - Everybody Hurts Sometimes
    'Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives, and I decline'

    REM - It's the End of the World as We Know It (and I Feel Fine)
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,190
    ddraver said:

    ddraver said:

    About the same as a long Alpine Climb...

    Not after several other Alpine climbs you've done already though... when you did a load of climbs the day before, and the day before...

    The guy is clearly a massive engine, but claiming we shouldn't be surprised because he's so good at CX doesn't follow. We absolutely should be surprised.

    That's not engine though, that's recovery. And it's also highly dependent on how the previous climbs were ridden.

    I don't understand why it offends so many people on here, it doesnt seem to be controversial anywhere else, but the experiences of the last few months keep adding up...
    I'm not offended by it...