Grumpy French (contains doping talk)...

2

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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,126
    Pross said:



    Not that I buy into the loons looking for doping. The French have been keen to mud sling at Sky for most of the past decade and now JV are the new satan stopping a brave French hero like Pinot winning the Tour.

    It's a bit like English football was (maybe still is) with the attitude that foreign players all divers and British players are all honest
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,099
    It's not just the French though. British libel laws being what they are, the British press have been more circumspect, but the Telegraph and Guardian have both raised questions.
    Team My Man 2022:

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  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,099
    ddraver said:

    People surprised by WvA (and also MvdP) haven't been watching cyclo-cross....

    I'm going to respond to this in the Unpopular Pro Race Opinions thread where my reply truly belongs.
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  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,414
    RichN95. said:

    Pross said:



    Not that I buy into the loons looking for doping. The French have been keen to mud sling at Sky for most of the past decade and now JV are the new satan stopping a brave French hero like Pinot winning the Tour.

    It's a bit like English football was (maybe still is) with the attitude that foreign players all divers and British players are all honest
    I think the general consensus is that footballers of all nationalities are equally cheating wussbags.... Apart from those diving Italians who are far worse
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,244
    gsk82 said:

    RichN95. said:

    Pross said:



    Not that I buy into the loons looking for doping. The French have been keen to mud sling at Sky for most of the past decade and now JV are the new satan stopping a brave French hero like Pinot winning the Tour.

    It's a bit like English football was (maybe still is) with the attitude that foreign players all divers and British players are all honest
    I think the general consensus is that footballers of all nationalities are equally cheating wussbags.... Apart from those diving Italians who are far worse
    Plus some notable Brazilians. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,524
    Pross said:


    The French have been keen to mud sling at Sky for most of the past decade and now JV are the new satan stopping a brave French hero like Pinot winning the Tour.

    This. After the Alaphilippe almost but not good enough last year, with ASO designing a 2020 course that ditched such furrin specialities as TTT and put the ITT in Pinot's back yard, for French cyclists and teams to maintain their somewhat less than stellar form is just too much to take. So them furrins gotta be cheating innit.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,244
    edited September 2020
    While watching the David Millar Time Trial documentary I noticed that there was a stark difference shown by fans to Wiggo in Italy compared to Sky in the 2014 TdF.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,126
    edited September 2020
    DeadCalm said:

    It's not just the French though. British libel laws being what they are, the British press have been more circumspect, but the Telegraph and Guardian have both raised questions.


    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • joe2019
    joe2019 Posts: 1,338
    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:

    It's not just the French though. British libel laws being what they are, the British press have been more circumspect, but the Telegraph and Guardian have both raised questions.


    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.
    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.

  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,524
    Whittle is agenda driven. Heard him spouting over multiple years like a mini Dandy Roan.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,292
    So actually dishonest. Willfully omitting things or even just willfully omitting context is being dishonest in journalism.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,634
    edited September 2020
    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:

    It's not just the French though. British libel laws being what they are, the British press have been more circumspect, but the Telegraph and Guardian have both raised questions.


    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.
    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.

    The only "truth" , as you put it, which actually relates to Pogacar, is that he was 10 in 2008.
    The rest is just vacuously infers the possibility of guilt through association.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,126
    edited September 2020
    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:



    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.

    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.


    It's the equivalent of a football journalist writing about Phil Foden and focussing entirely on Pep Guardiola's nandrolone issue in 2001 and ignoring Foden was player of the Tournament when England won the junior World Cup
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • I'm assuming that the Froome/Swart/Pogacar "dots" are being connected in the Clinic?

    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,190

    I'm assuming that the Froome/Swart/Pogacar "dots" are being connected in the Clinic?

    Even though Swart had never met Froome before that testing thing...
  • joe2019
    joe2019 Posts: 1,338

    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:

    It's not just the French though. British libel laws being what they are, the British press have been more circumspect, but the Telegraph and Guardian have both raised questions.


    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.
    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.

    The only "truth" , as you put it, which actually relates to Pogacar, is that he was 10 in 2008.
    The rest is just vacuously infers the possibility of guilt through association.
    So, you seriously think he won Le tour clean :)

  • joe2019
    joe2019 Posts: 1,338
    RichN95. said:


    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:



    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.

    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.


    It's the equivalent of a football journalist writing about Phil Foden and focussing entirely on Pep Guardiola's nandrolone issue in 2001 and ignoring Foden was player of the Tournament when England won the junior World Cup
    I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,524
    Random correlation ain't causation. HTH.
  • joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:


    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:



    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.

    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.


    It's the equivalent of a football journalist writing about Phil Foden and focussing entirely on Pep Guardiola's nandrolone issue in 2001 and ignoring Foden was player of the Tournament when England won the junior World Cup
    I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

    Seems to me you have no idea what anybody is talking about.

    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • joe2019
    joe2019 Posts: 1,338

    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:


    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:



    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.

    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.


    It's the equivalent of a football journalist writing about Phil Foden and focussing entirely on Pep Guardiola's nandrolone issue in 2001 and ignoring Foden was player of the Tournament when England won the junior World Cup
    I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

    Seems to me you have no idea what anybody is talking about.

    Funny man

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,126
    edited September 2020
    joe2019 said:

    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:

    It's not just the French though. British libel laws being what they are, the British press have been more circumspect, but the Telegraph and Guardian have both raised questions.


    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.
    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.

    The only "truth" , as you put it, which actually relates to Pogacar, is that he was 10 in 2008.
    The rest is just vacuously infers the possibility of guilt through association.
    So, you seriously think he won Le tour clean :)


    I don't know. But I do know two things.

    1. Doping scandals used to have proper drugs. Now people are grasping at saline drips, ventolin and ketones for their scandal fix.

    2. In 2018 Tadej Pogacar was not just the best pre-pro talent, but to some observers the best for several years. Last season was the best by a first year pro for many years.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,559
    I think the data crunching . Training intelligently Monitoring and dieting is just more effective than just hitting the testosterone and epo and training like a beast .... That's what I think has happened . Everyone really knows what they are doing now.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,319
    edited September 2020

    I think the data crunching . Training intelligently Monitoring and dieting is just more effective than just hitting the testosterone and epo and training like a beast .... That's what I think has happened . Everyone really knows what they are doing now.

    Indeed,

    It really wasn't long ago that we joked on here about how few pro-cyclists had coaches. Sky got a bunch of stick for starting to coach riders individually rather than putting the whole team on one plan. These days I can pay £7.99/month for an app that gives me a detailed power analysis and training plan. I'm crap and I still do it.

    Further, since the 90s, it was hard for a young person to break out simply because they hadn't had the benefit of several years doping.

    This is the state of training for one of the the top-two favourites for The Tour in 2011



    Yep! TWO THOUSAND AND ELEVEN!!!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,126
    ddraver said:


    Indeed,

    It really wasn't long ago that we joked on here about how few pro-cyclists had coaches. Sky got a bunch of stick for starting to coach riders individually rather than putting the whole team on one plan. These days I can pay £7.99/month for an app that gives me a detailed power analysis and training plan. I'm censored and I still do it.

    Further, since the 90s, it was hard for a young person to break out simply because they hadn't had the benefit of several years doping.

    This is the state of training for one of the the top-two favourites for The Tour in 2011

    Yep! TWO THOUSAND AND ELEVEN!!!


    I remember reading an interview with Romain Bardet about how much had things had changed in his years at AG2R (about 4 or 5 years at the time). He said when he joined the team didn't have a coach. He joined in 2012.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • I think another factor worthy of consideration is that the riders all arrived at the Tour having had various stages of lockdown training.

    Some indoors, some out a bit, some out a lot.

    I think next year we might see if differently.

    WvA has to back up what he has done this year which as Alaphillippe showed isn't easy.

    I do however think the race needs a French winner soon and it's nice to see CN following my blogs lead in picking Sivakov as the man who will do it !
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    edited September 2020
    WvA wasn’t doing that bad last year till he crashed out in the Tour.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,890
    edited September 2020
    RichN95. said:

    joe2019 said:

    joe2019 said:

    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:

    It's not just the French though. British libel laws being what they are, the British press have been more circumspect, but the Telegraph and Guardian have both raised questions.


    God, I've read Whittle's piece. It's so dishonest. Lots about what his team manger did while Pogacar was a small child and before he was born, but absolutely no mention of Pogacar's stellar u23 career before he even got to that team.
    Not really 'dishonest' then, just the truth, and a blind eye.

    The only "truth" , as you put it, which actually relates to Pogacar, is that he was 10 in 2008.
    The rest is just vacuously infers the possibility of guilt through association.
    So, you seriously think he won Le tour clean :)


    I don't know. But I do know two things.

    1. Doping scandals used to have proper drugs. Now people are grasping at saline drips, ventolin and ketones for their scandal fix.

    2. In 2018 Tadej Pogacar was not just the best pre-pro talent, but to some observers the best for several years. Last season was the best by a first year pro for many years.
    WvA was the most incredible performance of the Tour for me. Pogacar not only was outstanding as a junior but was outstanding in the Vuelta last year, so I fully expected him to be up there.

    I can't think of a time when we've had a rider driving on the flat, winning sprint finishes, doing huge pulls on mountains, and then hanging in there sufficiently to be fairly high up in GC (top 20 wasn't he?). Perhaps the nearest comparison we have is Kwia, who can do all of those things, but he had to sit up on various stages in order to recover sufficiently to do them, hence he was nearly an hour behind Wout on GC, despite having gained a chunk back by being given the freedom to hunt stages).

    As others have mentioned, probably the last time there has been such a rider is Sean Kelly, and Kelly was able to do well on GC as the protected rider, not as the 4th or 5th carriage in his team's mountain train. You could also argue that the 80s were an era in which riders did successfully complete across all disciplines, whereas now is far more selective, and therefore much rarer to get someone that can be as good in something like Paris-Roubaix as they can up an Alpine climb.

    That's not to say WvA is cheating of course, just that his performance was the likes of which I haven't seen for a very long time.
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    edited September 2020
    over the years ive seen the same people consistently raising eyebrows but even more consistently a different few people poo pooing doping. Is it time to accept we just have differences of opinion and levels of emotional investment?
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    WvA was clearly seen as something special for JV to sign him 2 years before his contract was due to end with his cyclocross team. He only got to ride for them last year due him breaking his contract because the team owner tried to sell him and the team without WvA’s knowledge.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    david37 said:

    over the years ive seen the same people consistently raising eyebrows but even more consistently a different few people poo pooing doping. Is it time to accept we just have differences of opinion and levels of emotional investment?

    I don't think anybody is poo-pooing doping. It's a fact of life and there's bound to be some riders doping. It's just that the same old faces come out of the woodwork 'consistently raising eyebrows' and to tell us that any superlative ride must be down to doping; and so the same old other faces (myself included) point to other less sinister reasons why a rider is doing something superlative.

    I get why people are suspicious of great performances but I genuinely think that cycling has moved on from the dark days and is probably at the same level of doping as other sports. We don't have evidence of anything else at this point. I think that some others cannot move on from the dark days and I wonder why they bother with the sport if they can't accept that great performances can be legitimate.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.