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Grumpy French (contains doping talk)...

inseineinseine Posts: 5,786
in Pro race
Seems like the Franch, notably Romain Feillu and Stephane Heulot are not happy with what they saw at the Tour. I assume WvA is the main target for their displeasure. This is what Feillu said (roughly)..
"When I think some people are offended that a 80 kilo guy climbs faster than Pantani… The magic jersey guys. Jumbo, the flying elephants. You just have to believe."

They are pointing at chemical and mechanical doping just to spice things up.

https://www.leparisien.fr/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france-stephane-heulot-a-eu-envie-de-vomir-devant-les-performances-de-pogacar-21-09-2020-8388645.php

https://www.lamontagne.fr/brive-la-gaillarde-19100/sports/romain-feillu-a-propos-des-performances-de-la-jumbo-visma-je-n-accuse-personne-je-n-ai-pas-de-preuve-mais-je-m-interroge_13839260/
http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
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Posts

  • FreddieVonRostFreddieVonRost Posts: 261
    Sour grapes and that desperation for a French rider to win the Tour by any chance? The more life changes .....
    Not a Giro Hero!
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 11,178
    Well, WvA was pretty ridiculous, to be fair. I'm not sure I would go quite this far though...
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 27,112
    Those articles together are pretty damning. In Feillu's article Van Aert is 80kg yet in Heulot's he is 75kg. A team that can just change it's weight like this during a race it up to something.

    Standard sceptics who think that anything they can't comprehend must be due to nefarious schemes rather than their own lack of understanding.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,786
    Wiki states 78kg
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,688
    Without proof it's pretty meaningless - you probably do just have to believe. Was it Bernal who said he was putting out good numbers but still getting dropped for 40 seconds - you just have to hope that wasn't true.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,033
    RichN95. said:

    Those articles together are pretty damning. In Feillu's article Van Aert is 80kg yet in Heulot's he is 75kg. A team that can just change it's weight like this during a race it up to something.

    Standard sceptics who think that anything they can't comprehend must be due to nefarious schemes rather than their own lack of understanding.

    They're actually discussing WvA in one and Pogacar in the other
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 27,112
    edited September 2020
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    RichN95. said:

    Those articles together are pretty damning. In Feillu's article Van Aert is 80kg yet in Heulot's he is 75kg. A team that can just change it's weight like this during a race it up to something.

    Standard sceptics who think that anything they can't comprehend must be due to nefarious schemes rather than their own lack of understanding.

    They're actually discussing WvA in one and Pogacar in the other

    If they think Pogacar is 75kg they're crazy. That's about 10kg too heavy.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Kauto5Kauto5 Posts: 71
    If you take Dumoulin and Bernal at face value when they say their numbers are as high as ever, then it shows how exceptional some performances were in demolishing them in the respective stages they were referring to. But can they be taken at face value? There's no way of knowing a rider's weight unless you are there to witness them on the scales in my opinion, as teams don't tend to publish up to date and accurate weight data. And why should they?
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,688
    edited September 2020
    When you read the stats they aren't totally unbelievable. They aren't putting out such amazing Watts it's incomprehensible (taking into account these are hugely talented athletes who do this for a living) it's just that they do so at such low weights.

    The descending speeds are pretty interesting too.

    Edit - wrong link
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,688
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cyclingnews.com/amp/features/tour-de-france-power-analysis-tadej-pogacars-record-breaking-ascent-of-the-col-de-peyresourde/
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • joe2019joe2019 Posts: 1,338
    edited September 2020
    ...
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 21,604
    If the French are pointing the finger of suspicion at Jumbo, then I guess it can be said that they have made it.
    Get the spittoons ready for next year.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • specialgueststarspecialgueststar Posts: 3,418
    It is getting a bit mental again.... But that could be an indication of normality 🥴😀
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,786
    For all the fuss Pogacar was only two seconds better than Aru's previous fastest time on the Planche des belles filles.
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 70,688 Lives Here
    inseine said:

    For all the fuss Pogacar was only two seconds better than Aru's previous fastest time on the Planche des belles filles.

    Two weeks later on in the race and obviously Aru wasn't going balls out for 20 mins before hitting the climb.
    _
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 16,460
    There's always room for suspicion. But I am not feeling it here ... Why?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 70,688 Lives Here
    mididoctors said:

    There's always room for suspicion. But I am not feeling it here ... Why?

    It's the lack of rumours about doping generally, no?

    I wouldn't even know what doping people are doing nowadays.

    Back in the day we had a pretty good idea of what riders were supposed to be using, and a steady trickle of busts let you know.

    _
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 3,398
    rick_chasey said:

    inseine said:

    For all the fuss Pogacar was only two seconds better than Aru's previous fastest time on the Planche des belles filles.

    Two weeks later on in the race and obviously Aru wasn't going balls out for 20 mins before hitting the climb.
    He was also soft peddling in the bunch for half the climb
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • brundonbianchibrundonbianchi Posts: 689
    They may have a point. I believe Roglic’s numbers were very good for the last 12Kms of the TT, and not showing him having a bad day, or blowing out, but Pogs numbers were unbelievable. That last section of the TT smacked of a certain Texan on the Alpe d’Huez a few years ago. I hope that’s not the case, but you have to remember that doping testing was non existent during the training period, whilst lockdown was on during the weeks and months previous to the race, and it would have been very easy to dope a rider / some riders up to the eyeballs, during the training period, and not get caught. I believe doping controls are back in working order now though.
  • 50x1150x11 Posts: 408
    I'd say the only rider I was surprised about is WVA, but then he's obviously on a good year, and I think it was said he changed his approach after his crash and focussed on climbing more. I'd more suspicious if he goes to the classics and destroys everyone.

    There is no way he's 80kg and absolutely Pogacar is not 75kg. I'd guess 70 for wout and 65 for Pog.

    Surprised more hasn't been made by these people of Roglic's cadence (I don't think he's a cheat), given the incident with the DS and the previous heat mapping of his bike.
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 6,666
    edited September 2020
    I agree the only suspicious performance was Wout, even acknowledging his stellar form leading into the Tour, you really would not expect someone like him to be shelling renowned climbers and GC candidates out the back on long climbs and then being able to turn up at the sharp end of a sprint the next day, and to keep doing that over a 3 week period.
  • webboowebboo Posts: 6,067
    brundonbianchi said:

    They may have a point. I believe Roglic’s numbers were very good for the last 12Kms of the TT, and not showing him having a bad day, or blowing out, but Pogs numbers were unbelievable. That last section of the TT smacked of a certain Texan on the Alpe d’Huez a few years ago. I hope that’s not the case, but you have to remember that doping testing was non existent during the training period, whilst lockdown was on during the weeks and months previous to the race, and it would have been very easy to dope a rider / some riders up to the eyeballs, during the training period, and not get caught. I believe doping controls are back in working order now though.

    So they dope like mad while training then stop while racing. If this is possible why do people got caught doping during races. Sure there are some drugs that have a longer term effect but not many. You only have read Tyler Hamilton’s book to know the lengths he and his team mates went to so they could dope during races.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 26,243
    People surprised by WvA (and also MvdP) haven't been watching cyclo-cross....
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 21,604
    50x11 said:

    I'd say the only rider I was surprised about is WVA, but then he's obviously on a good year, and I think it was said he changed his approach after his crash and focussed on climbing more. I'd more suspicious if he goes to the classics and destroys everyone.

    There is no way he's 80kg and absolutely Pogacar is not 75kg. I'd guess 70 for wout and 65 for Pog.

    Surprised more hasn't been made by these people of Roglic's cadence (I don't think he's a cheat), given the incident with the DS and the previous heat mapping of his bike.

    You would be half right.
    PCS have Pogacar as 66kgs, but as mentioned up thread, you are wrong about Van Aert.
    He's actually only 2kms shy of 80kgs.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 3,398
    ddraver said:

    People surprised by WvA (and also MvdP) haven't been watching cyclo-cross....

    Cross is for children. It doesn't count.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 26,243
    edited September 2020
    Funny how they seem to be spanking all the "adults" right now

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 11,178
    ddraver said:

    People surprised by WvA (and also MvdP) haven't been watching cyclo-cross....

    Those races are short and not stage races, it's a bit of a different kettle of fish.

    There's a pretty good record of cross riders doing well in the classics, but whether they'll do well over 3 weeks is a different question. Not that it can't be done of course (same as riders coming from track), it just doesn't necessarily follow that good cyclocross performance means they are going to be world class stage racers...
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 27,112
    ddraver said:

    People surprised by WvA (and also MvdP) haven't been watching cyclo-cross....


    But those of us who don't watch cross have tended to look down on crossers. Things seem to have changed in recent years.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    edited September 2020
    The way some people go on you'd think these riders had just dropped out of the sky.
    Van Aert has been looking good for a couple of years and has been flagged as something special for ages. And whilst a lot of the climbing was tough, they did suit a rider with strength more than usual, the climbs being lower, steeper and shorter (in general). He's obviously got a massive engine and reminds me of Kelly: immensely strong, can sprint, time trial and climb decently.

    I understand why people might be suspicious, but for their own health they might be better off packing the sport in than automatically assuming a great or surprising performance is dodgy. There must be no joy in the sport and if that's the case why bother? I mean, why can't it be possible that some riders are just outstanding?

    A genuine question: does the French press look at any other sports (Athletics excepted) in the same way?
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • ProssPross Posts: 39,278
    ddraver said:

    People surprised by WvA (and also MvdP) haven't been watching cyclo-cross....

    Meh not convinced the power efforts required in cross translate to lugging 10kg more up a series of alpine passes than those you are dropping. Someone on here said MvdP is missing the Worlds because the course is too selective.

    Not that I buy into the loons looking for doping. The French have been keen to mud sling at Sky for most of the past decade and now JV are the new satan stopping a brave French hero like Pinot winning the Tour.

    I've never understood comparing to performances from decades ago and concluding that, as people have got quicker than past greats, they must be cheating. Do they really thing sporting performance should remain static?
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