Harper's letter

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

Have to say, I appreciate this is tangential, but I'm surprised sexual assault in prisons is something you get animated about, as I haven't really noticed any animation about broader prison conditions.

The US system seems to have quite a problem with male rape. Something that doesn't get much sympathy, because of the ridiculous perception that criminals deserve it.

There is an awful lot of wrong with UK prisons. They're unable to look after the people they have. Big overcrowding, big drug problems. Riots are becoming increasingly regular. Still lots of murder inside them.

Extremely poor mental health support. The whole thing is a mess.

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

rick_chasey

This is excellent:

https://unherd.com/2020/07/the-historical-narcissism-of-culture-warriors/?=frlh

Which means none of you will read it, but you'll be worse off for it.

(basically, these discussions have been going on forever, with different terms)

"Years from now, when “woke” and “cancel culture” are rusting on the lexical scrapheap... perhaps a subsequent chronocentric generation will have forgotten that we cared enough to have these fights, too."

DeVlaeminck

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

DeVlaeminck

rick_chasey said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

Have to say, I appreciate this is tangential, but I'm surprised sexual assault in prisons is something you get animated about, as I haven't really noticed any animation about broader prison conditions.

I was responding to someone else posting a cartoon relevant to the discussion and gave an example from a debate I was following on twitter.

Whether it surprises you that I have an interest in the subject is neither here nor there is it - what point are you trying to make?

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

morstar

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

TBH, the word ‘fact’ is misplaced but the statement made that was highlighted in bold is a pretty safe assumption that I believe you would struggle to gather evidence to the contrary for. People don’t go round solely being attracted to minds. Physical attraction is a major determining factor in relationship forming. A cock and balls is going to be a problem in many scenarios.
If you accept that premise, arguing about the semantics is distracting from the debate and the point made.

ballysmate

morstar said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

TBH, the word ‘fact’ is misplaced but the statement made that was highlighted in bold is a pretty safe assumption that I believe you would struggle to gather evidence to the contrary for. People don’t go round solely being attracted to minds. Physical attraction is a major determining factor in relationship forming. A censored and balls is going to be a problem in many scenarios.
If you accept that premise, arguing about the semantics is distracting from the debate and the point made.

Gotta be honest and it will no doubt shock nobody at all, it would be a complete game changer for me.

ballysmate

Rick's link does demonstrate that this discussion is not new, but nowadays with social media, the wrong phrase or nuance can have even more disastrous consequences.
The linked article uses a quote by Christopher Hitchens. Here's another one.

The right of others to free expression is part of my own. If someone’s voice is silenced, then I am deprived of the right to hear. Moreover, I have never met nor heard of anybody I would trust with the job of deciding in advance what it might be permissible for me or anyone else to say or read. That freedom of expression consists of being able to tell people what they may not wish to hear, and that it must extend, above all, to those who think differently is, to me, self-evident.

https://www.rd.com/article/freedom-speech-most-important-first-amendment-right/

rick_chasey

ballysmate said:

Rick's link does demonstrate that this discussion is not new, but nowadays with social media, the wrong phrase or nuance can have even more disastrous consequences.
The linked article uses a quote by Christopher Hitchens. Here's another one.

The right of others to free expression is part of my own. If someone’s voice is silenced, then I am deprived of the right to hear. Moreover, I have never met nor heard of anybody I would trust with the job of deciding in advance what it might be permissible for me or anyone else to say or read. That freedom of expression consists of being able to tell people what they may not wish to hear, and that it must extend, above all, to those who think differently is, to me, self-evident.

https://www.rd.com/article/freedom-speech-most-important-first-amendment-right/

He was having the same argument in 1993 though, and he's clearly not been silenced.

rjsterry

morstar said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

TBH, the word ‘fact’ is misplaced but the statement made that was highlighted in bold is a pretty safe assumption that I believe you would struggle to gather evidence to the contrary for. People don’t go round solely being attracted to minds. Physical attraction is a major determining factor in relationship forming. A censored and balls is going to be a problem in many scenarios.
If you accept that premise, arguing about the semantics is distracting from the debate and the point made.

Agreed, and in the spirit of not distracting from the debate, I'd suggest whether straight men's typical sexual preferences are pretty irrelevant to the question of trans rights, let alone the original topic of freedom of speech.

ballysmate

Well he's dead but people are being silenced.

DeVlaeminck

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

Nowhere have I said trans women live alone, that *no* straight man would be attracted to them or any of the other BS you have made up.

The point I made was that some men are happy to consider trans women female when it impacts on someone else - including very vulnerable women - but I will bet my mortgage the majority of them wouldn't consider them women if it came to a relationship. Principles are easy when others pay the price for them.

You've still not answered whether you doubt that and what your personal position would be (no pun intended) ?

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck said:

rick_chasey said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

Have to say, I appreciate this is tangential, but I'm surprised sexual assault in prisons is something you get animated about, as I haven't really noticed any animation about broader prison conditions.

I was responding to someone else posting a cartoon relevant to the discussion and gave an example from a debate I was following on twitter.

Whether it surprises you that I have an interest in the subject is neither here nor there is it - what point are you trying to make?

It is tangential, sure.

I have a suspicion that people are searching for arguments that prove their feeling on transexuals, rather than looking at the broader picture. The prison argument seems to have got a lot of traction but it is quite a narrow topic for what isn't a particularly narrow issue.

TheBigBean

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

Nowhere have I said trans women live alone, that *no* straight man would be attracted to them or any of the other BS you have made up.

The point I made was that some men are happy to consider trans women female when it impacts on someone else - including very vulnerable women - but I will bet my mortgage the majority of them wouldn't consider them women if it came to a relationship. Principles are easy when others pay the price for them.

You've still not answered whether you doubt that and what your personal position would be (no pun intended) ?

I think the centrist position has some sympathy for actually vulnerable women e.g. in a domestic violence shelter, but at lot less in the context of toilets that a big bad man could just walk into anyway.

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

Nowhere have I said trans women live alone, that *no* straight man would be attracted to them or any of the other BS you have made up.

The point I made was that some men are happy to consider trans women female when it impacts on someone else - including very vulnerable women - but I will bet my mortgage the majority of them wouldn't consider them women if it came to a relationship. Principles are easy when others pay the price for them.

You've still not answered whether you doubt that and what your personal position would be (no pun intended) ?

No idea. The situation has never presented itself. I still don't see what individual sexual attraction has to do with whether someone is considered to be a woman or not. There does appear to be a very small minority of people who identify as women because that gives them access to places where women are vulnerable. This is a pattern you see elsewhere. I don't think we should base our entire approach to trans rights on that minority of a minority. Yes, on the face of it there are two conflicting sets of rights: I can't believe it's beyond the wit of man to find a solution.

DeVlaeminck

rick_chasey said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rick_chasey said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

Have to say, I appreciate this is tangential, but I'm surprised sexual assault in prisons is something you get animated about, as I haven't really noticed any animation about broader prison conditions.

I was responding to someone else posting a cartoon relevant to the discussion and gave an example from a debate I was following on twitter.

Whether it surprises you that I have an interest in the subject is neither here nor there is it - what point are you trying to make?

It is tangential, sure.

I have a suspicion that people are searching for arguments that prove their feeling on transexuals, rather than looking at the broader picture. The prison argument seems to have got a lot of traction but it is quite a narrow topic for what isn't a particularly narrow issue.

Who gives a fuck about your suspicion - you are really just making a personal attack (again) because you don't have an argument (again).

It's actually quite a good example if this whole debate - unless you consider gender to be 100% self determined the implication is you must be a transphobe who seeks to do harm to transgender people.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck said:

It's actually quite a good example if this whole debate - unless you consider gender to be 100% self determined the implication is you must be a transphobe who seeks to do harm to transgender people.

You see this is the sort of binary extremist positioning of the other side that isn't constructive that I'm talking about.

You don't seem interested in the debate. You seem interested to push one side of it and vilify the other, when in reality, most people will fall somewhere in the middle.

DeVlaeminck

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

Nowhere have I said trans women live alone, that *no* straight man would be attracted to them or any of the other BS you have made up.

The point I made was that some men are happy to consider trans women female when it impacts on someone else - including very vulnerable women - but I will bet my mortgage the majority of them wouldn't consider them women if it came to a relationship. Principles are easy when others pay the price for them.

You've still not answered whether you doubt that and what your personal position would be (no pun intended) ?

I think the centrist position has some sympathy for actually vulnerable women e.g. in a domestic violence shelter, but at lot less in the context of toilets that a big bad man could just walk into anyway.

I agree. Similarly in sport a centrist position might allow transgender athletes to compete where they aren't at an obvious advantage due to being biologically male (or female). So that may mean in certain sports never, in some there may be requirements such as testosterone limits and in others no limitation. It's about going as far as possible to allow people to live how they want to live and be who they want to be without impinging the rights of others.

nickice

My sort of general feeling has always been that if transwomen actually look like women then fair enough (though, of course, I don't actually believe they're actual females) but we've all seen what is essentially a man in a wig. That's when it becomes a bit ridiculous to play along with it (though I would just to be polite). Unfortunately, I think a lot of trans activists have mistaken politeness and kindness with agreement.

I repeat, you don't get whatever rights you're looking for by trying to silence people.

nickice

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

Nowhere have I said trans women live alone, that *no* straight man would be attracted to them or any of the other BS you have made up.

The point I made was that some men are happy to consider trans women female when it impacts on someone else - including very vulnerable women - but I will bet my mortgage the majority of them wouldn't consider them women if it came to a relationship. Principles are easy when others pay the price for them.

You've still not answered whether you doubt that and what your personal position would be (no pun intended) ?

I think the centrist position has some sympathy for actually vulnerable women e.g. in a domestic violence shelter, but at lot less in the context of toilets that a big bad man could just walk into anyway.

I agree. Similarly in sport a centrist position might allow transgender athletes to compete where they aren't at an obvious advantage due to being biologically male (or female). So that may mean in certain sports never, in some there may be requirements such as testosterone limits and in others no limitation. It's about going as far as possible to allow people to live how they want to live and be who they want to be without impinging the rights of others.

Surely it would be a small sacrifice to make for them simply not to compete in sports.

nickice

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

Nowhere have I said trans women live alone, that *no* straight man would be attracted to them or any of the other BS you have made up.

The point I made was that some men are happy to consider trans women female when it impacts on someone else - including very vulnerable women - but I will bet my mortgage the majority of them wouldn't consider them women if it came to a relationship. Principles are easy when others pay the price for them.

You've still not answered whether you doubt that and what your personal position would be (no pun intended) ?

I think the centrist position has some sympathy for actually vulnerable women e.g. in a domestic violence shelter, but at lot less in the context of toilets that a big bad man could just walk into anyway.

This wouldn't even be an issue in France as they often have the same toilet for men and women (often with urinals and cubicles). It actually really annoys me as I think that sort of thing should be separate.

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

Nowhere have I said trans women live alone, that *no* straight man would be attracted to them or any of the other BS you have made up.

The point I made was that some men are happy to consider trans women female when it impacts on someone else - including very vulnerable women - but I will bet my mortgage the majority of them wouldn't consider them women if it came to a relationship. Principles are easy when others pay the price for them.

You've still not answered whether you doubt that and what your personal position would be (no pun intended) ?

I think the centrist position has some sympathy for actually vulnerable women e.g. in a domestic violence shelter, but at lot less in the context of toilets that a big bad man could just walk into anyway.

I agree. Similarly in sport a centrist position might allow transgender athletes to compete where they aren't at an obvious advantage due to being biologically male (or female). So that may mean in certain sports never, in some there may be requirements such as testosterone limits and in others no limitation. It's about going as far as possible to allow people to live how they want to live and be who they want to be without impinging the rights of others.

This does seem quite different from your earlier posts. If your immediate response when discussing trans people is to jump to the minority of that minority (tentative estimates put the total number of trans people in the UK at between 200,000 and 500,000) using a trans identity as a means to abuse vulnerable people, it does sort of suggest that you have a rather negative view of them. Maybe that's not an accurate reflection of your views - and the above suggests it isn't - but that's how it initially came across.

ballysmate

As a regular subscriber to Pink News I came across Ralf Little, tying himself in knots, trying to stay woke.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/06/09/jk-rowling-trans-transgender-tweet-twitter-ralf-little/

Seems that when people are off message regarding trans issues, their views on any other matters are to be ignored as well, regardless of whether you agree.

rjsterry

Pretty sure I was ignoring Ralf Little's views on absolutely everything anyway, but I can't see how saying you agree with some things a person has said but disagree with others is tying yourself in knots. Seems like a perfectly normal state of affairs. Not sure that a few people replying critically to your tweets warrants counts as being cancelled either, nor warrants a news article.

ballysmate

rjsterry said:

Pretty sure I was ignoring Ralf Little's views on absolutely everything anyway, but I can't see how saying you agree with some things a person has said but disagree with others is tying yourself in knots. Seems like a perfectly normal state of affairs. Not sure that a few people replying critically to your tweets warrants counts as being cancelled either, nor warrants a news article.

It wouldn't be tying yourself in knots, I agree but it seems you didn't read the whole article.
It would be a normal state of affairs to agree with someone on some issues but disagree on others. But Ralfie goes on

The following day, Little returned to Twitter having “changed his position” after researching the topics at hand and speaking with others.

“On reflection I now agree that it is important to take a stand if you believe someone’s output to be problematic, and that includes not retweeting things on other subjects that you may find more palatable,” he said.

He retweeted something he thought his followers would undoubtedly agree on. He was criticised because although people agreed, the source was unacceptable to them. He pointed out (rightly) that it is possible to agree with someone on one thing but disagree on another. He was then schooled to realise that if you are deemed trans phobic, your opinion on anything else is invalid.

rjsterry

Busted 🙂. I do think changing your mind on something after having read up on it is perfectly acceptable as well. Not sure I agree with the position he has reached, but that's fine, too. It still does seem like an everyday fourth or fifth order Twitterstormette. The most bland and innocuous posts seem to elicit vitriolic replies and pass without making it on to a news site.

john80

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

If its a fact, back it up with some evidence. If it's an opinion that's fine, but don't call it a fact. There are lots of areas where the potentially conflicting rights of different groups have to be balanced, but I'm not sure stating opinions as fact is the way to go about it.

I consider it a fact so I'll call it a fact. Do you seriously doubt it ?

You'll have to define very few. Or do you think that all trans women live alone? The idea that they can't be women because some straight men are not attracted to them is one of the stranger definitions of gender I've read.

There is an assumption that all trans women are attracted to men. Some of them are attracted to women. But if you put a number as less than 10% as very few then it probably is a fact that very few males would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans women.

shortfall

Twitter is just awful isn't it though? I gave it a good shot but after less than a year I made a conscious decision to stop looking at my Twitter feed because all I got was polarised opinions from fanatics with little context and just downright nastiness. As a middle aged (c)onservative I also found my opinions massively out of step with the predominantly younger, left leaning demographic. I mean, I get all the schooling I need right here about what a reactionary dinosaur I am but at least I have a few allies 😀 The other horrible thing with Twitter is the relentless stream of videos that auto load on your feed.. There's a limit to how many racially motivated assaults, cop beatings or animal cruelty videos from China you can be sure subjected to before it does lasting damage to your mental health and perceptions of society.

kingstongraham

My twitter feed is mostly pictures of dogs, jokes, local cycle campaigns and local businesses.

Plus cookie monster, but he is not prolific.