Harper's letter

DeVlaeminck

https://mobile.twitter.com/SoOppressed

If the link works a few examples of so called cancel culture there. It's the direction of travel that is most worrying - not just that these things are happening now but that there is no sign of the tide slowing as this way of thinking (or not thinking) becomes more pervasive.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SoOppressed

If the link works a few examples of so called cancel culture there. It's the direction of travel that is most worrying - not just that these things are happening now but that there is no sign of the tide slowing as this way of thinking (or not thinking) becomes more pervasive.

I honestly think it is just the concern of people on both sides of the extreme - the ‘cancelling‘ or the ‘cancelled’.

There is an obvious discussion to be had about giving extremists a platform or not, but no one involved in the “cancel culture” discourse actually bothers to discuss it.

It’s one side saying the other is awful, either because they’re saying awful things or they’re being “silenced”.

Both extremes have an interest in not actually coming to a broad sensible consensus so normal people or sensible people just don’t bother engaging in it.

Even an attempt to like JK ends up becoming the target of endless abuse and some hero for far right nutters - neither of which she deserves.

Why bother giving these people oxygen?

rick_chasey

ballysmate

But it's not just the people at the extreme being cancelled is it?
Take the latest furore over JKR.
She pointed out that the noun for 'people who menstruate' is 'women'. What could be more mainstream than that? The great and the good piled in and if she hadn't already been published, she would be struggling to hold her job as a typist.
You would have thought that all she was guilty of was stating the bleedin' obvious. (Sorry).
If you can lose your livelihood for stating something that 99.999999999999999% of people think, then there is a problem.

rick_chasey

She’d also not have had that level of publicity in the first place.


And it’s not really the great and the good is it?

It’s extremist behaviour.

ballysmate

So are you saying that if she had not been famous her view would have been more palatable to the twitterati?

In these days when people 'follow' any celebrity on social media (baa baa), these people are considered the great and the good by many people.

JKR's behaviour wasn't extremist was it? The reaction could be termed extremist, but the worrying aspect is the behaviour was from what would normally been thought mainstream.

rick_chasey

No I’m not saying JK was extremist.

I’m saying she got attention to begin with because she’s JK.

When Rick Chasey says the same (and he does) no one gives a sh!t.

It’s extremists going after her who have no interest in consensus or nuance.

ballysmate

This cartoon cost the cartoonist her job at The Morning Star and almost led to the commie rag being wound up.
The author is a feminist and wished to highlight the dangers of allowing people who self identify into women only places, like toilets and domestic violence refuges.

No surprise that the likes of Owen Jones (a mainstream journalist with a national paper) led the charge.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/23/newspaper-apologises-transphobic-cartoon-sparks-outrage-12287799/

I consider only one side exhibited extremist behaviour, I suspect you will disagree.

rick_chasey

ballysmate said:

This cartoon cost the cartoonist her job at The Morning Star and almost led to the commie rag being wound up.
The author is a feminist and wished to highlight the dangers of allowing people who self identify into women only places, like toilets and domestic violence refuges.

No surprise that the likes of Owen Jones (a mainstream journalist with a national paper) led the charge.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/23/newspaper-apologises-transphobic-cartoon-sparks-outrage-12287799/

I consider only one side exhibited extremist behaviour, I suspect you will disagree.

Well yeah, I would see the cartoon as just as extreme tbf.

I don't think it's helpful depicting trans people as a sinister hungry crocodile who is about to eat a newt, regardless of the message. Bit disappointed you don't see that as extremist to be honest. That should be obvious.

Here's a thought, the cartoonist may not have lost her job had she not made that depiction, and had the trans activist community not been so vicious, the cartoonist probably wouldn't have felt the need to depict trans people as an evil crocodile.

ballysmate

You seem to have missed the point of the cartoon, just like the vociferous complainers did.
Her target was the campaign to enshrine in law the right to self identify and its ramifications. She was not saying that trans people are predators.
But I suppose the perpetually offended like OJ were too stupid or didn't want to recognise that. Too good a chance to show their moral outrage.

rick_chasey

Bally, give me a break, I get the cartoon.

kingstongraham

ballysmate said:

You seem to have missed the point of the cartoon, just like the vociferous complainers did.
Her target was the campaign to enshrine in law the right to self identify and its ramifications. She was not saying that trans people are predators.
But I suppose the perpetually offended like OJ were too stupid or didn't want to recognise that. Too good a chance to show their moral outrage.

She should have said "self identifying" rather than "transitioning" then, really.

rick_chasey

Thing is bally, I'm probably not very far away from you in terms of the problems with self-identification.

But you seem chill about depicting self-transitioning people as evil hungry crocodiles ready to eat women.

That's not really constructive is it?

I mean, I don't know much about the issue, but I would suggest that people who are willing to go to such extremes as a gender swap are really in a bad bad place. That can't be ignored. That needs to be looked at and considered.

There is a discussion to be had about supporting younger people who want to transition, and the obvious dangers of it being a 'phase' for some, and even there being some pressure to make a transition which is obviously not ideal.

However, the discussion is pretty much impossible to have because each side has decided what the other one is and just slings abuse.

You're doing the same here. You're just assuming I'm like Owen Jones or whoever and "don't get it".

nickice

ballysmate said:

You seem to have missed the point of the cartoon, just like the vociferous complainers did.
Her target was the campaign to enshrine in law the right to self identify and its ramifications. She was not saying that trans people are predators.
But I suppose the perpetually offended like OJ were too stupid or didn't want to recognise that. Too good a chance to show their moral outrage.

I suppose people could take offence at that but it's actually really funny. There is no way I want to live in a world where you can't mock the idea of transitioning.

rjsterry

I think there is a difference between that cartoon and what JKR wrote (don't know if you have read it), which was far more nuanced, albeit dealing with some of the same issues. That's not to say that the cartoonist should have been sacked and political cartoons are almost seen as not doing their job if they don't offend. I think there are two factors that have contributed to the situation. There's a long history of complaints of any sort of discrimination being dismissed, or not taken seriously, so I think there is a sense that if you don't make a huge incident out of something - calling for heads on sticks rather than merely suggesting they reconsider their actions - nothing will happen. Social media amplifies this: nobody ever got many retweets or likes for posting something even-handed and looking at an issue from both sides.

The second point is that in this case both sides of the argument consider themselves (with justification) to be the threatened minority and any solution will involve some compromise. For the reasons mentioned above, compromise is not seen as acceptable.

DeVlaeminck

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a cock and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

I'm not really commenting on if the cartoonist should have lost her job or not (after all, what are editors for), but you can "give a voice" without depicting people in transition as evil crocodiles, right?

coopster_the_1st

rick_chasey said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

I'm not really commenting on if the cartoonist should have lost her job or not (after all, what are editors for), but you can "give a voice" without depicting people in transition as evil crocodiles, right?

It is highlighting predators taking advantage of rules, not depicting people in transition as evil crocodiles.

Things are a lot clearer when they are not viewed through Woke glasses. Try removing them occasionally so you can see clearly

shortfall

Loving how we're being schooled here by the guy who told someone he had a disagreement with on the internet to drink bleach.

rick_chasey

shortfall said:

Loving how we're being schooled here by the guy who told someone he had a disagreement with on the internet to drink bleach.

Only on advice of the US president

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

Sure. It's not a subtle cartoon, so I think we all get it. Point is: are most, some or a small minority of trans people a threat to women? Is it reasonable to restrict the ability of all trans people to be treated as they identify, to protect women from the small minority who appear to only identify as trans to gain further opportunities to abuse women?

TheBigBean

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

nickice

Did gay rights activists achieve equality by starting petitions and threatening people who didn't agree with their views?

TheBigBean

nickice said:

Did gay rights activists achieve equality by starting petitions and threatening people who didn't agree with their views?

In a debate with extreme views on both sides, it is important to realise that criticism of one side is not an endorsement of the other. There is a significant chunk of central ground that most people occupy.

nickice

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

Did gay rights activists achieve equality by starting petitions and threatening people who didn't agree with their views?

In a debate with extreme views on both sides, it is important to realise that criticism of one side is not an endorsement of the other. There is a significant chunk of central ground that most people occupy.

What?

rjsterry

nickice said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

Did gay rights activists achieve equality by starting petitions and threatening people who didn't agree with their views?

In a debate with extreme views on both sides, it is important to realise that criticism of one side is not an endorsement of the other. There is a significant chunk of central ground that most people occupy.

What?

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

nickice

rjsterry said:

nickice said:

TheBigBean said:

nickice said:

Did gay rights activists achieve equality by starting petitions and threatening people who didn't agree with their views?

In a debate with extreme views on both sides, it is important to realise that criticism of one side is not an endorsement of the other. There is a significant chunk of central ground that most people occupy.

What?

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

But what is the connection with my post which was about persuading people rather than silencing them.

DeVlaeminck

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

Have to say, I appreciate this is tangential, but I'm surprised sexual assault in prisons is something you get animated about, as I haven't really noticed any animation about broader prison conditions.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

DeVlaeminck said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

The cartoon is really just giving a voice to people who are ignored in the rush for trans rights. Imagine if you were female being put in prison sharing your cell with someone who has a censored and balls - I mean you may claim not to mind but I suspect (as most on here are male) if that happened to your daughter your first thoughts would not be positive. To raise awareness of that kind of issue to be a sacking offence is just wrong. It's not about being unfair to trans people - it's about recognising that other people have rights and sometimes those rights compete or are incompatible.

How do you feel about your daughter sharing a cell with a 6ft lesbian? Do you think that is reasonable grounds to object?

I suspect that sexual assaults by lesbians are far less common ( even proportionately) than sexual assaults by men and that your average lesbian is far less physically capable than your average man.

The fact is whatever people claim very few straight men would have a sexual relationship with a pre op trans woman - hands up if you would - so if men don't see them as women why should women be forced to ? I'm all for making things as easy for people to live as whatever they want to live as until that impinges on the rights of others. So yes if Sean wants to be Susan and referred to as she and her no problem - but there are women only areas in society where it's problematic.

Have to say, I appreciate this is tangential, but I'm surprised sexual assault in prisons is something you get animated about, as I haven't really noticed any animation about broader prison conditions.

The US system seems to have quite a problem with male rape. Something that doesn't get much sympathy, because of the ridiculous perception that criminals deserve it.