It's almost like every case is different and doesn't bare comparison to others
You race under UCI rules
You break those rules
You suffer the penalties under ICI rules
If UCI rules say life ban, thats what it is no matter how many clubbies pull the jingoism card
end of.
Other than the life ban business, you're correct. Who's disputing it?
I know what you're getting at. People have been questioning Sicot's excuse/reason and you've pulled Millar out of your @rse as some sort of shite comparison, because some people have accepted his contrition and moved on, and you can't accept that's for any other reason than he's British. That says more about your prejudices than anything else. Maybe, just maybe, people don't think somebody who cheats at sport should be hung, drawn and quartered and maybe they actually believe he's genuine, regardless of his nationality.
Me, FWIW, I don't know or even really care about Millar's honesty, but someone bringing up unrelated 20 year old cases is either totally radicalised by cycling's past or is trying to troll. Or both.
It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
Am I missing the people who have said Millar shouldn't have been banned or is someone building a straw man ready for bonfire night?
He's a tv commentator, still taking work from clean riders.
But who are these people supporting him because he is posh and British? He gets criticised for his past regularly on here. I don't even think he's a good pundit as some on here say.
I think he's a reasonable pundit myself.
I prefer Blythe now though as a more recent rider.
Am I missing the people who have said Millar shouldn't have been banned or is someone building a straw man ready for bonfire night?
He's a tv commentator, still taking work from clean riders.
But who are these people supporting him because he is posh and British? He gets criticised for his past regularly on here. I don't even think he's a good pundit as some on here say.
I think he's a reasonable pundit myself.
I prefer Blythe now though as a more recent rider.
I agree. I think there's a few coming through (on commentary too) like Matt Stephens and Dan Lloyd as well who understand that this is supposed to be fun. It's entertainment. I think Osi Umenyiora and Jason Bell showed the way on the NFL show
Am I missing the people who have said Millar shouldn't have been banned or is someone building a straw man ready for bonfire night?
He's a tv commentator, still taking work from clean riders.
But who are these people supporting him because he is posh and British? He gets criticised for his past regularly on here. I don't even think he's a good pundit as some on here say.
I think he's a reasonable pundit myself.
I prefer Blythe now though as a more recent rider.
I used to think he was OK but the last time I heard him he was predicting tactics, something else would happen and he's say "there, you see that's what I was just talking about" when it clearly wasn't. Blythe has certainly raised the bar, he has the knowledge but is also an enthusiastic cycling fan who seems as in awe of what the top riders can do as the rest of us mere mortals.
Maybe I'm not a passionate enough fan of sports, but I apply the same logic to sports people that I do to life in general. If you've committed a crime, you do your time under the rules and regulations that are around, and thereafter you've got the chance to rehabilitate and change.
I've not seen anything in Millar's behaviour that would say that either a) he didn't deserve the full weight of punishment for the "crimes" he committed and that b) anything post his conviction in terms of contrition, rehabilitation and fundamental change in behaviours that leads me to think he is in any way a fake or a fraud *today*. His ban for 2 years looks pretty paltry by today's standards but that's a function of the time.
I understand the jealousy that some will feel either personally or on behalf of those pro riders who always were and who remain clean; the widespread acceptance of his volte-face on drugs and his active campaigning against doping has seen him get into a position where he has earning power and potential that most other ex-dopers don't get into. But that's no different to "white hat" cyber criminals working for cybersecurity businesses, or convicted violent criminals working in inner city projects to combat gang violence. Rehab happens, on balance society benefits from it, and that's no different whether that "society" is pro cycling or the community at large.
Trolling around about someone's behaviours from 20 years ago and making comments that apologies or changes in behaviour are fake is just childish nonsense.
I consider it trolling because you're only bringing up a long-gone case to mock people, not as a genuine counterpoint. No-one sensible objects to a different opinion.
It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
I don't because its the classic argument for "foreigner dopes hang them but dopey millar the doping cheat is british so lets forgive him and buy his overpriced clothes"
those who ignore history....
not one element of trolling at all.
.
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
I don't because its the classic argument for "foreigner dopes hang them but dopey millar the doping cheat is british so lets forgive him and buy his overpriced clothes"
those who ignore history....
not one element of trolling at all.
I'm not sure anyone is "Hanging the foreign doper". People like or don't like riders for other reasons.
Personally I don't like the old dopers who cast aspersions on the current peloton despite not having been anywhere near it for over a decade.
I don't because its the classic argument for "foreigner dopes hang them but dopey millar the doping cheat is british so lets forgive him and buy his overpriced clothes"
those who ignore history....
not one element of trolling at all.
We'll agree to disagree then. But putting Millar's case in this thread appears to be shoe-horning to me.
It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
You don't think that some other riders of Millar's generation under achieved because they were competing against cheats are jealous of Millar's ability to leverage his story of salvation from the evils of doping?
Millar is only raised because he still has a very high profile. If he'd doped, been sanctioned and disappeared off to stack shelves at Tesco for the rest of his life he wouldn't raise the ire he does with some. It's only because he has that high profile and is still earning his crust from cycling that he is a problem figure to some, like MF above, surely?
Jealousy isn't everyone's motive for disliking Millar, probably far from it, but it will be part of it.
And as for why Millar. From my perspective as someone who is disconnected from the sport (I don't even ride a bike much, I'm a runner and care for athletics as a sport more than pro cycling) Millar is on my radar simply because he broadcasts at me on TV or via podcasts in the language I speak.
If Millar was Italian or French or Dutch I'd treat him in the same way, for me at least it's nothing to do with his nationality as to why I'm happy to rehabilitate him and balance off what he does and says now vs what he did in the past. If I could be convinced that Armstrong was properly contrite and properly engaged with clean cycling I'd even have the same view about him. But I'm not, so he remains in the non-rehabilitated camp for me.
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I know what you're getting at. People have been questioning Sicot's excuse/reason and you've pulled Millar out of your @rse as some sort of shite comparison, because some people have accepted his contrition and moved on, and you can't accept that's for any other reason than he's British. That says more about your prejudices than anything else. Maybe, just maybe, people don't think somebody who cheats at sport should be hung, drawn and quartered and maybe they actually believe he's genuine, regardless of his nationality.
Me, FWIW, I don't know or even really care about Millar's honesty, but someone bringing up unrelated 20 year old cases is either totally radicalised by cycling's past or is trying to troll. Or both.
I prefer Blythe now though as a more recent rider.
I agree. I think there's a few coming through (on commentary too) like Matt Stephens and Dan Lloyd as well who understand that this is supposed to be fun. It's entertainment. I think Osi Umenyiora and Jason Bell showed the way on the NFL show
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I've not seen anything in Millar's behaviour that would say that either a) he didn't deserve the full weight of punishment for the "crimes" he committed and that b) anything post his conviction in terms of contrition, rehabilitation and fundamental change in behaviours that leads me to think he is in any way a fake or a fraud *today*. His ban for 2 years looks pretty paltry by today's standards but that's a function of the time.
I understand the jealousy that some will feel either personally or on behalf of those pro riders who always were and who remain clean; the widespread acceptance of his volte-face on drugs and his active campaigning against doping has seen him get into a position where he has earning power and potential that most other ex-dopers don't get into. But that's no different to "white hat" cyber criminals working for cybersecurity businesses, or convicted violent criminals working in inner city projects to combat gang violence. Rehab happens, on balance society benefits from it, and that's no different whether that "society" is pro cycling or the community at large.
Trolling around about someone's behaviours from 20 years ago and making comments that apologies or changes in behaviour are fake is just childish nonsense.
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2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)
Tbh, you could be "trolling" in your post above in some people's eyes. Definitly patronising, but also maybe trolling.
Jealoysy - don't think so
Patronising - very much so
Over use of hyperbole - definitly
those who ignore history....
not one element of trolling at all.
Personally I don't like the old dopers who cast aspersions on the current peloton despite not having been anywhere near it for over a decade.
Millar is only raised because he still has a very high profile. If he'd doped, been sanctioned and disappeared off to stack shelves at Tesco for the rest of his life he wouldn't raise the ire he does with some. It's only because he has that high profile and is still earning his crust from cycling that he is a problem figure to some, like MF above, surely?
Jealousy isn't everyone's motive for disliking Millar, probably far from it, but it will be part of it.
2011 Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc (son #4s)
2013 Decathlon Triban 3 (red) (mine)
2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)
If Millar was Italian or French or Dutch I'd treat him in the same way, for me at least it's nothing to do with his nationality as to why I'm happy to rehabilitate him and balance off what he does and says now vs what he did in the past. If I could be convinced that Armstrong was properly contrite and properly engaged with clean cycling I'd even have the same view about him. But I'm not, so he remains in the non-rehabilitated camp for me.
2011 Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc (son #4s)
2013 Decathlon Triban 3 (red) (mine)
2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)