Heard any good conspiracy theories?

Ben6899

elbowloh said:

Apparently people in the US are selling a cream that blocks the 5g signal, therefore protecting you from COVID...and people are buying it.

There are considerable mounds of money to be made, through immoral but legal methods, in this world.

Should really get on it, tbh.

john80

rjsterry said:

That's not valuing a life. that's assessing the chances of survival and relative clinical need. Worrying that you can't spot the difference.

The lorry example is not assessing the chances of survival. Both groups will die if you run them over with a lorry. In the case of the ICU bed both will die if you don't give it to them.

MattFalle

back on the conspiracy theory track ....

rjsterry

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

That's not valuing a life. that's assessing the chances of survival and relative clinical need. Worrying that you can't spot the difference.

The lorry example is not assessing the chances of survival. Both groups will die if you run them over with a lorry. In the case of the ICU bed both will die if you don't give it to them.

Real life does not present such neat choices. There is always someone with slightly better odds. Not to mention we go to quite some lengths to make sure we have enough capacity to avoid such choices.

john80

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

That's not valuing a life. that's assessing the chances of survival and relative clinical need. Worrying that you can't spot the difference.

The lorry example is not assessing the chances of survival. Both groups will die if you run them over with a lorry. In the case of the ICU bed both will die if you don't give it to them.

Real life does not present such neat choices. There is always someone with slightly better odds. Not to mention we go to quite some lengths to make sure we have enough capacity to avoid such choices.

There are studies on this for driverless cars to programme them to match human perceptions of the world around them. Some of it is quite interesting reading and it certainly crushes that all lives are equal.

rick_chasey

So if you believe not all lives are equal why do you believe in equal rights?

john80

rick_chasey said:

So if you believe not all lives are equal why do you believe in equal rights?

Equal rights is not the same as equal outcomes. In an ideal world people should have equality of opportunity/rights but when the ICU ward is full then guess what we start to ration things and this based on the tacit understanding that all lives are not of equal value. Without this you would just me standing in a hospital paralysed into doing nothing the minute there is more need for care than capacity.

In the Manchester arena bombings where in that moment there was clearly more in need of care than care capacity how would you approach this scenario as a layman or a professional?

rjsterry

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

So if you believe not all lives are equal why do you believe in equal rights?

Equal rights is not the same as equal outcomes. In an ideal world people should have equality of opportunity/rights but when the ICU ward is full then guess what we start to ration things and this based on the tacit understanding that all lives are not of equal value. Without this you would just me standing in a hospital paralysed into doing nothing the minute there is more need for care than capacity.

In the Manchester arena bombings where in that moment there was clearly more in need of care than care capacity how would you approach this scenario as a layman or a professional?

There have been a few articles doing the rounds, written by ICU staff. They suggest that quite a different way of assessing who has access to care when demand exceeds capacity.

rick_chasey

You're taking a very narrow approach here.

The guy in question made his statement about lives being more valuable than others beyond the specifics of triage.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

So if you believe not all lives are equal why do you believe in equal rights?

Equal rights is not the same as equal outcomes. In an ideal world people should have equality of opportunity/rights but when the ICU ward is full then guess what we start to ration things and this based on the tacit understanding that all lives are not of equal value. Without this you would just me standing in a hospital paralysed into doing nothing the minute there is more need for care than capacity.

In the Manchester arena bombings where in that moment there was clearly more in need of care than care capacity how would you approach this scenario as a layman or a professional?

There have been a few articles doing the rounds, written by ICU staff. They suggest that quite a different way of assessing who has access to care when demand exceeds capacity.

Don’t tease

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

You're taking a very narrow approach here.

The guy in question made his statement about lives being more valuable than others beyond the specifics of triage.

That is how we have all interpreted his statement

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

So if you believe not all lives are equal why do you believe in equal rights?

Equal rights is not the same as equal outcomes. In an ideal world people should have equality of opportunity/rights but when the ICU ward is full then guess what we start to ration things and this based on the tacit understanding that all lives are not of equal value. Without this you would just me standing in a hospital paralysed into doing nothing the minute there is more need for care than capacity.

In the Manchester arena bombings where in that moment there was clearly more in need of care than care capacity how would you approach this scenario as a layman or a professional?

There have been a few articles doing the rounds, written by ICU staff. They suggest that quite a different way of assessing who has access to care when demand exceeds capacity.

Don’t tease

I would guess it is based on most likely to survive and whether medical intervention is required to survive. As opposed to age. However, most likely to survive is also aligned with things like age and underlying conditions.

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

You're taking a very narrow approach here.

The guy in question made his statement about lives being more valuable than others beyond the specifics of triage.

That is how we have all interpreted his statement

What? Triage? or in general?

Because John is only talking about triage.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

So if you believe not all lives are equal why do you believe in equal rights?

Equal rights is not the same as equal outcomes. In an ideal world people should have equality of opportunity/rights but when the ICU ward is full then guess what we start to ration things and this based on the tacit understanding that all lives are not of equal value. Without this you would just me standing in a hospital paralysed into doing nothing the minute there is more need for care than capacity.

In the Manchester arena bombings where in that moment there was clearly more in need of care than care capacity how would you approach this scenario as a layman or a professional?

There have been a few articles doing the rounds, written by ICU staff. They suggest that quite a different way of assessing who has access to care when demand exceeds capacity.

Don’t tease

I would guess it is based on most likely to survive and whether medical intervention is required to survive. As opposed to age. However, most likely to survive is also aligned with things like age and underlying conditions.

Broadly, yes. The point being that these are clinical decisions focused on the best outcome for the patients that they can achieve, not evaluations of a person's worth.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

So if you believe not all lives are equal why do you believe in equal rights?

Equal rights is not the same as equal outcomes. In an ideal world people should have equality of opportunity/rights but when the ICU ward is full then guess what we start to ration things and this based on the tacit understanding that all lives are not of equal value. Without this you would just me standing in a hospital paralysed into doing nothing the minute there is more need for care than capacity.

In the Manchester arena bombings where in that moment there was clearly more in need of care than care capacity how would you approach this scenario as a layman or a professional?

There have been a few articles doing the rounds, written by ICU staff. They suggest that quite a different way of assessing who has access to care when demand exceeds capacity.

Don’t tease

I would guess it is based on most likely to survive and whether medical intervention is required to survive. As opposed to age. However, most likely to survive is also aligned with things like age and underlying conditions.

Broadly, yes. The point being that these are clinical decisions focused on the best outcome for the patients that they can achieve, not evaluations of a person's worth.

That's the rationale for the medics, but they end up doing the same as NICE just with a different justification. For example, I don't believe that someone who has a 100% chance of survival for a heart transplant, but will die within 12 months, will get a new heart when it could go to someone who will live longer.

Ultimately, it is one of those things that people don't want to be true, but sometimes difficult choices need to be made.

orraloon

Difficult choices do need to get made.

Been down the Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) agreement road. Twice. Difficult. But correct.

TheBigBean

Incidentally, I haven't read Sumption's comments, but the general opinion seems to be that it is fine for medicine, but that extending it to the whole lockdown argument is more of a stretch.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

So if you believe not all lives are equal why do you believe in equal rights?

Equal rights is not the same as equal outcomes. In an ideal world people should have equality of opportunity/rights but when the ICU ward is full then guess what we start to ration things and this based on the tacit understanding that all lives are not of equal value. Without this you would just me standing in a hospital paralysed into doing nothing the minute there is more need for care than capacity.

In the Manchester arena bombings where in that moment there was clearly more in need of care than care capacity how would you approach this scenario as a layman or a professional?

There have been a few articles doing the rounds, written by ICU staff. They suggest that quite a different way of assessing who has access to care when demand exceeds capacity.

Don’t tease

I would guess it is based on most likely to survive and whether medical intervention is required to survive. As opposed to age. However, most likely to survive is also aligned with things like age and underlying conditions.

Broadly, yes. The point being that these are clinical decisions focused on the best outcome for the patients that they can achieve, not evaluations of a person's worth.

That's the rationale for the medics, but they end up doing the same as NICE just with a different justification. For example, I don't believe that someone who has a 100% chance of survival for a heart transplant, but will die within 12 months, will get a new heart when it could go to someone who will live longer.

Ultimately, it is one of those things that people don't want to be true, but sometimes difficult choices need to be made.

I don't think anyone has a 100% chance of survival from a heart transplant. They are already in suffiently short supply that decisions are always difficult. I would still argue that this is qualitatively different from assigning comparative values to different individuals.

Clearly there are people who do view those with health issues as somehow of less worth, but I doubt many work in health care.