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Virtual TdF in 2020, why not?

ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,896
in Pro race
What a better opportunity to try out something like that....
left the forum March 2023
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  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 22,385
    Make it open too. With cut off times as per the real thing.
    Let's see who makes it past the first day.
    Not sure how you'd check for digital cheating though.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 25,343
    Do 3 weeks of virtual races in a row if you must, but don't insult peoples intelligence by calling it a real race...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,896
    ddraver said:

    Do 3 weeks of virtual races in a row if you must, but don't insult peoples intelligence by calling it a real race...

    It doesn't matter if you assign the real TdF trophy or not... it's down to giving motivation to the athletes and feeding fans with something to look forward to.

    I agree there could be qualifiers in June on Zwift (or other platform) to put together a few non PRO-teams
    left the forum March 2023
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,565
    ddraver said:

    Do 3 weeks of virtual races in a row if you must, but don't insult peoples intelligence by calling it a real race...

    I mean, races on Zwift clearly are real races...

    Whether they meet your definition of a *bike* race though, fair enough and I mostly agree. Having done quite a bit of Zwift riding this week, it certainly feels like a real race insofar as you want to win and it's damn hard! Obviously it misses some of the key elements of proper bike racing, so it is only a substitute for riding outdoors, but beggars and choosers etc.

    I think there is scope to do something reasonably entertaining on Zwift, myself. If they got the coverage right, I'd watch just for the novelty factor to begin with.

    A lot of the pros and teams are doing group rides on Zwift at the moment (like the sportives they sometimes do in real life), where you can ride around and do a bit of Q&A with them. So many of them are probably already set up for it.
  • dabberdabber Posts: 1,878
    OK to ride and train for myself, but to watch others riding in the Zwift environment....definitely not for me.
    “You may think that; I couldn’t possibly comment!”

    Wilier Cento Uno SR/Wilier Mortirolo/Specialized Roubaix Comp/Kona Hei Hei/Calibre Bossnut
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,896
    I can see antidoping at the end of the stage being problematic...
    left the forum March 2023
  • sherersherer Posts: 2,456
    you cant have a sprinter protected for 100 miles and then pull out at the end and win a race.. virtual stuff isnt there to do a proper tour yet, what do you do with all the domestiques etc ?
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,896
    sherer said:

    you cant have a sprinter protected for 100 miles and then pull out at the end and win a race.. virtual stuff isnt there to do a proper tour yet, what do you do with all the domestiques etc ?

    Course might need to be tweaked... it could be an interesting experiment, nobody expects it to be the real Tour or that the winner would go down in history as a TdF winner or even just a stage winner
    left the forum March 2023
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 22,385
    sherer said:

    you cant have a sprinter protected for 100 miles and then pull out at the end and win a race.. virtual stuff isnt there to do a proper tour yet, what do you do with all the domestiques etc ?

    I thought Zwift allowed for wind and drafting. If so then yes, it is.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • dabberdabber Posts: 1,878
    I'd love to see how Zwift would implement/render 21 new stage routes. Given the paucity of routes currently available it would be "some challenge" to do that. :)
    “You may think that; I couldn’t possibly comment!”

    Wilier Cento Uno SR/Wilier Mortirolo/Specialized Roubaix Comp/Kona Hei Hei/Calibre Bossnut
  • phreakphreak Posts: 2,716
    dabber said:

    I'd love to see how Zwift would implement/render 21 new stage routes. Given the paucity of routes currently available it would be "some challenge" to do that. :)

    Not to mention that (I think) there are only two routes on the platform that even get close to the kind of distances pros do in a race (the uber pretzel and the Ride London course), and neither are likely to be selective enough to make racing interesting among pros.

    A platform designed for overweight dentists isn't a great environment to truly test the best riders in the world.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,565
    phreak said:

    dabber said:

    I'd love to see how Zwift would implement/render 21 new stage routes. Given the paucity of routes currently available it would be "some challenge" to do that. :)

    Not to mention that (I think) there are only two routes on the platform that even get close to the kind of distances pros do in a race (the uber pretzel and the Ride London course), and neither are likely to be selective enough to make racing interesting among pros.

    A platform designed for overweight dentists isn't a great environment to truly test the best riders in the world.
    You'd have to do laps like in the Worlds. So yeah would make doing the actual TdF difficult unless they employ a boatload of programmers and make them work round the clock, probably. That's not to say they couldn't do something moderately interesting on Zwift while there is no actual pro racing going on.

    I'm not overweight or a dentist and I use it...
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,565
    pblakeney said:

    sherer said:

    you cant have a sprinter protected for 100 miles and then pull out at the end and win a race.. virtual stuff isnt there to do a proper tour yet, what do you do with all the domestiques etc ?

    I thought Zwift allowed for wind and drafting. If so then yes, it is.
    Yes, it does allow for drafting, quite effectively as well. We have been doing virtual club rides on it the last week or so, the peloton effect is very noticeable.
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 5,907
    edited March 2020
    phreak said:

    dabber said:

    I'd love to see how Zwift would implement/render 21 new stage routes. Given the paucity of routes currently available it would be "some challenge" to do that. :)

    .......

    A platform designed for overweight dentists isn't a great environment to truly test the best riders in the world.
    Is that why half the pro peloton have been using it for the last couple of years?
    Or do you just enjoy insulting a couple of hundred thousand people?
    There's no need to be a complete Tool.

    Zwift could easily create a route that included say the mega pretzel plus the Alpe - that would be selective.
    Also don't expect the same guys that win IRL to win in a virtual world.

  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,549
    edited March 2020
    ugo.santalucia said:

    What a better opportunity to try out something like that....


    Velon are going to try it next month. A mini Tour de Suisse. Five stages, each stage about and hour long. Three riders per team.

    https://www.velon.cc/news/2020/3/26/worlds-best-professional-teams-gear-up-for-the-digital-swiss-5

    Lappartient has probably got the UCI lawyers trying to kill it.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,565
    RichN95. said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    What a better opportunity to try out something like that....


    Velon are going to try it next month. A mini Tour de Suisse. Five stages, each stage about and hour long. Three riders per team.

    https://www.velon.cc/news/2020/3/26/worlds-best-professional-teams-gear-up-for-the-digital-swiss-5

    Lappartient has probably got the UCI lawyers trying to kill it.
    The key thing is going to be getting the broadcast right. When I've seen Zwift stuff done live like that it isn't very engaging - you need the app maker on board to make something compelling (i.e. broadcast style where you can see what is actually going on in the race).

    Dunno how Rouvy copes with drafting and all that.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,896
    And again, nobody says stages need to be 200 km... in fact I think they need to be a lot shorter for a virtual format to be interesting, ideally 2-3 hours stages.
    I would probably look at 6 time trials, 3 flat (maybe one as TTT) and 3 up a mountain. 6 stages on varied terrain of about 100 km and 6 mountain stages of maybe 60-80 km each.
    left the forum March 2023
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 23,451
    sherer said:

    you cant have a sprinter protected for 100 miles and then pull out at the end and win a race.. virtual stuff isnt there to do a proper tour yet, what do you do with all the domestiques etc ?

    I'd you got dropped in zwift, you would definitely want domestiques to help you back.
  • sherersherer Posts: 2,456
    RichN95. said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    What a better opportunity to try out something like that....


    Velon are going to try it next month. A mini Tour de Suisse. Five stages, each stage about and hour long. Three riders per team.

    https://www.velon.cc/news/2020/3/26/worlds-best-professional-teams-gear-up-for-the-digital-swiss-5

    Lappartient has probably got the UCI lawyers trying to kill it.
    i prefer Rouvy to Zwift, the real world videos make it much more engaging for me. Not done a race \ group ride so dont know how it works with drafting either.

    Nice to see another platform try something, the virtual world is more than just Zwift
  • phreakphreak Posts: 2,716
    Dorset_Boy said:

    phreak said:

    dabber said:

    I'd love to see how Zwift would implement/render 21 new stage routes. Given the paucity of routes currently available it would be "some challenge" to do that. :)

    .......

    A platform designed for overweight dentists isn't a great environment to truly test the best riders in the world.
    Is that why half the pro peloton have been using it for the last couple of years?
    Or do you just enjoy insulting a couple of hundred thousand people?
    There's no need to be a complete Tool.

    Zwift could easily create a route that included say the mega pretzel plus the Alpe - that would be selective.
    Also don't expect the same guys that win IRL to win in a virtual world.

    I've been on the site for years, and it's been noticeable in that time that practically all of the new routes have been largely flat with the odd short hill on them. The only climb even remotely resembling something they do in the real Tour is the Alpe, and it's hardly enough to build a pro race around.

    It's also clear from looking at the race schedule on Zwift that the vast majority are run on those same largely flat routes with the odd short hill on them. Very few go up the Epic KOM, and even fewer go up the Alpe. Given that Zwift clearly have the data that shows the routes people use most often, and keep producing the same kind of flat courses, it's not exactly a great leap to suggest that most riders want flat courses rather than Alpine climbs.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 66,360 Lives Here
    “Climbing” on a turbo is unbearable.

    _
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 20,520
    The thread title questions why not. Thomas de Gendt has supplied the answer.

    https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/de-gendt-pulled-from-zwift-race-for-going-too-fast/
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 22,385
    blazing_saddles said:

    The thread title questions why not. Thomas de Gendt has supplied the answer.

    https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/de-gendt-pulled-from-zwift-race-for-going-too-fast/

    Logically covered elsewhere.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • N0bodyOfTheGoatN0bodyOfTheGoat Posts: 5,462
    rick_chasey said:

    “Climbing” on a turbo is unbearable.

    In what way?

    The biggest obstacle to hitting your power interval PBs indoors compared to outdoors is lack of heat adaption (which results in higher heartrate indoors towards your threshold power), along with not enough air movement from fans and not enough water.
    ================
    2020 Voodoo Marasa
    2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
    2016 Voodoo Wazoo
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 66,360 Lives Here
    High resistance on a turbo just feels awful and doesn't reflect what climbing feels like
    _
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,896
    rick_chasey said:

    High resistance on a turbo just feels awful and doesn't reflect what climbing feels like

    You are going to break the heart of all those dentists climbing the Alpe du Zwift in an hour...
    left the forum March 2023
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 22,385
    rick_chasey said:

    High resistance on a turbo just feels awful and doesn't reflect what climbing feels like

    Probably depends on the turbo and settings.
    My wheel-on KK Rock n Roll semi smart gave me a 60W advantage over the Neo 2T. On road testing v virtual same routes says the Neo was fairly accurate. Quicker in fact due to lack of concern about blind corners/junctions and potholes.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • sherersherer Posts: 2,456
    we can get a trial run of this at the weekend. B:Kool and Flanders Classics are hosting a virtual Ronde with some of the pros taking part.

    Will it be any good and will it work ? Guess we will find out
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,437
    Much as I love my Zwift - you cant race the tour on it. Half the fun is the landscape.

  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 23,451
    ugo.santalucia said:

    rick_chasey said:

    High resistance on a turbo just feels awful and doesn't reflect what climbing feels like

    You are going to break the heart of all those dentists climbing the Alpe du Zwift in an hour...
    I found it fairly close to my real world time (but then I am basing it on accurate power and weight).

    Training for long climbs is one thing that I find a turbo actually better for than riding outside, when you haven't got anywhere close that you can maintain an hour of consistent power.

    High resistance, low cadence isn't something I do on the turbo because it is something I generally avoid while riding (until the hill hits about 12%+, and there's not that many of those around that go on for several km). If I was riding somewhere with lots of those climbs, I'd change my gearing.
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