Refugees Channel crossing

slowmart

Watching the news makes me think there has to be a better more humane way of effectively handling the issue.

I see families and individuals seeking a better life and risking everything to get to the UK.

rolf_f

Slowmart wrote:

Watching the news makes me think there has to be a better more humane way of effectively handling the issue.

I see families and individuals seeking a better life and risking everything to get to the UK.

Humanity isn't really a thing right now.......

Pross

Hmm, it's a tricky one (suprisingly). If you take the view 'they've risked their lives to get here, we should let them stay' then surely you would be encouraging others to also risk their lives in an attempt to get here. I would say the first step is to try to understand why the UK is perceived to be preferable to any other safe country they've already travelled through but also to ensure we are taking our fair share of refugees from the countries they arrive at.

rjsterry

Pross wrote:

Hmm, it's a tricky one (suprisingly). If you take the view 'they've risked their lives to get here, we should let them stay' then surely you would be encouraging others to also risk their lives in an attempt to get here. I would say the first step is to try to understand why the UK is perceived to be preferable to any other safe country they've already travelled through but also to ensure we are taking our fair share of refugees from the countries they arrive at.

Having been refused asylum in Italy, France and the Netherlands, where would you try next?

shirley_basso

Pross wrote:

Hmm, it's a tricky one (suprisingly). If you take the view 'they've risked their lives to get here, we should let them stay' then surely you would be encouraging others to also risk their lives in an attempt to get here. I would say the first step is to try to understand why the UK is perceived to be preferable to any other safe country they've already travelled through but also to ensure we are taking our fair share of refugees from the countries they arrive at.

pretty much this.

john80

Pross wrote:

Hmm, it's a tricky one (suprisingly). If you take the view 'they've risked their lives to get here, we should let them stay' then surely you would be encouraging others to also risk their lives in an attempt to get here. I would say the first step is to try to understand why the UK is perceived to be preferable to any other safe country they've already travelled through but also to ensure we are taking our fair share of refugees from the countries they arrive at.

A lot of it is to do with the fact we speak English. Most refugees primary second language will be English and in terms of ease of integration it is much easier to use English for these people than learn German, French etc. as a third language. We could also be argued are more liberal and accommodating than other nations. For example try going down the local Spanish council equivalent looking for a house and not speaking Spanish to give one example. The idea that they would provide a translator for anything other than criminal charges is not even a consideration for some other nations.

The other problem refugees have is that they are claiming asylum from essentially acts of aggression or persecution in the home nation. By the time they get to France they have already passed a number of European nations where they would be safe. After this it is a personal choice mainly driven by language skills and associated economics.

bradsbeard

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

rjsterry

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Except that means that Turkey, Greece, Italy and Spain end up shouldering the entire burden of migration across the Mediterranean. That's not really fair on our neighbours given that we were actively involved in the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

Pross

rjsterry wrote:

Pross wrote:

Hmm, it's a tricky one (suprisingly). If you take the view 'they've risked their lives to get here, we should let them stay' then surely you would be encouraging others to also risk their lives in an attempt to get here. I would say the first step is to try to understand why the UK is perceived to be preferable to any other safe country they've already travelled through but also to ensure we are taking our fair share of refugees from the countries they arrive at.

Having been refused asylum in Italy, France and the Netherlands, where would you try next?

If there are genuine reasons for being denied asylum in all those countries then the chances are they'll be denied by the UK too and do so then we are getting into a debate about whether we should accept them remaining for other reasons. As I say, my main concern is that if we took the approach that they've risked their lives to get here so we should help them it will lead to more people taking the same or greater risks to get here which can't be a good thing.

Pross

rjsterry wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Except that means that Turkey, Greece, Italy and Spain end up shouldering the entire burden of migration across the Mediterranean. That's not really fair on our neighbours given that we were actively involved in the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

Isn't the case that you claim asylum in the first country and that other countries agree to accept a certain number? If not that's how I feel it should happen and the UK should certainly take its fair share.

bradsbeard

rjsterry wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Except that means that Turkey, Greece, Italy and Spain end up shouldering the entire burden of migration across the Mediterranean. That's not really fair on our neighbours given that we were actively involved in the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

Aren't 95% of these migrants claiming to Iranian?

rjsterry

bradsbeard wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Except that means that Turkey, Greece, Italy and Spain end up shouldering the entire burden of migration across the Mediterranean. That's not really fair on our neighbours given that we were actively involved in the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

Aren't 95% of these migrants claiming to Iranian?

No idea. Sounds like a statistic made up on the spot to me.

slowbike

2 simplistic issues

1) Why do they want to come to the EU/UK & How to reverse that
2) What to do with those who make it


1) Variety of reasons - usually wanting a better life - those from Syria/Iran/Iraq mostly escaping conflict. Those from African nations are mostly economic reasons - after a better/western life.

2) Whilst we're in the EU, then we should take our share - iirc, we have been taking less than "our share" in the past

back to 1) - how to reverse it - if it were simple then it would've been done ... but, again, simplisticly, you've got to remove the incentive to get here - either by helping the source country be more attractive or by making the destination country seem worse ....I guess we're on the latter at the moment ...

bradsbeard

bradsbeard wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Except that means that Turkey, Greece, Italy and Spain end up shouldering the entire burden of migration across the Mediterranean. That's not really fair on our neighbours given that we were actively involved in the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

Aren't 95% of these migrants claiming to Iranian?

I think you'll find they are in the vast majority claiming to be Iranian.

rjsterry

bradsbeard wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Except that means that Turkey, Greece, Italy and Spain end up shouldering the entire burden of migration across the Mediterranean. That's not really fair on our neighbours given that we were actively involved in the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

Aren't 95% of these migrants claiming to Iranian?

I think you'll find they are in the vast majority claiming to be Iranian.

Show me a source for that then. As I say, I've no idea. I'm assuming you haven't carried out your own research on the south coast.

rjsterry

Saved you the bother.



A few years out of date so feel free to post figures for 2019 if you can find them.

Darius_Jedburgh

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Spot on. It's yet another problem the French want to dump on us. European rules say they should deal with it, but as ever they only follow the rules they like.

pblakeney

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Really?
Are you sorry? I have my doubts.

oxoman

Personally the Aussies have the right way, you want to work and integrate fully and have proper job to come to then no problem otherwise tuff love return to previous departure point. Any boats seized with illegal immigrants in should be seized and destroyed to stop re-use, people encouraging them to come over illegally should be prosecuted and jailed and that includes lieing devious politicians and do gooders. Rant over

Stevo_666

oxoman wrote:

people encouraging them to come over illegally should be prosecuted and jailed and that includes lieing devious politicians and do gooders. Rant over

This place would be even quieter than parliament if you did that

rick_chasey

oxoman wrote:

Any boats seized with illegal immigrants in should be seized and destroyed to stop re-use, people encouraging them to come over illegally should be prosecuted and jailed and that includes lieing devious politicians and do gooders. Rant overr

For the record, refugees are, by definition, not illegal immigrants.

Not really sure why you're discussing illegal immigrant in a discussion about refugees.

bradsbeard

PBlakeney wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Really?
Are you sorry? I have my doubts.

You know your probably right.

veronese68

Rick Chasey wrote:

oxoman wrote:

Any boats seized with illegal immigrants in should be seized and destroyed to stop re-use, people encouraging them to come over illegally should be prosecuted and jailed and that includes lieing devious politicians and do gooders. Rant overr

For the record, refugees are, by definition, not illegal immigrants.
Not really sure why you're discussing illegal immigrant in a discussion about refugees.

Because people don't know the difference. I once had to listen to an idiot droning on about refugees and illegal immigrants claiming benefits and taking jobs. The fact that illegal immigrants can't claim as they are illegal was completely lost on him. It eventually became apparent he was talking about Eastern Europeans being here completely legally and working, he finished by saying he was fed up of it and if it carried on he would move to France. Making him exactly the same as those he was complaining about. I would have pointed out the error of his ways but had to bite his tongue as he was a customer.
Immigrants are different to ex-pats in some tiny minds.

TheBigBean

rjsterry wrote:

Pross wrote:

Hmm, it's a tricky one (suprisingly). If you take the view 'they've risked their lives to get here, we should let them stay' then surely you would be encouraging others to also risk their lives in an attempt to get here. I would say the first step is to try to understand why the UK is perceived to be preferable to any other safe country they've already travelled through but also to ensure we are taking our fair share of refugees from the countries they arrive at.

Having been refused asylum in Italy, France and the Netherlands, where would you try next?

I doubt many will have already tried to claim asylum. I would imagine many prefer the UK, because they have already have family or a community in the UK. Also, it may be easier to disappear in the UK as there is no requirement to have an ID card. Finally, the UK has various policies / case law in place which means that it is impossible to deport people to various countries, so if you are of a certain nationality (or can claim to be), then you know you will not be deported irrespective of the legitimacy of your claim. I am not sure how this works with other EU countries though.

Pross

oxoman wrote:

Personally the Aussies have the right way, you want to work and integrate fully and have proper job to come to then no problem otherwise tuff love return to previous departure point. Any boats seized with illegal immigrants in should be seized and destroyed to stop re-use, people encouraging them to come over illegally should be prosecuted and jailed and that includes lieing devious politicians and do gooders. Rant over

Yet another person unable to understand the difference between immigrants and refugees. If they are able to demonstrate refugee status then they are able to stay.

Australia is signed up to the same UNHCR Convention on refugees as the UK and most other countries. It's not actually the case under that convention or EU law that a refugee has to claim asylum in the first safe country they reach although the country they do claim asylum in can seek to return them to a different safe country.

rjsterry

bradsbeard wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Really?
Are you sorry? I have my doubts.

You know your probably right.

Any luck finding something to back up that 95% claim?

rjsterry

Pross wrote:

oxoman wrote:

Personally the Aussies have the right way, you want to work and integrate fully and have proper job to come to then no problem otherwise tuff love return to previous departure point. Any boats seized with illegal immigrants in should be seized and destroyed to stop re-use, people encouraging them to come over illegally should be prosecuted and jailed and that includes lieing devious politicians and do gooders. Rant over

Yet another person unable to understand the difference between immigrants and refugees. If they are able to demonstrate refugee status then they are able to stay.

Australia is signed up to the same UNHCR Convention on refugees as the UK and most other countries. It's not actually the case under that convention or EU law that a refugee has to claim asylum in the first safe country they reach although the country they do claim asylum in can seek to return them to a different safe country.

We also already have something pretty close to the Australian system for non-refugee non-EU. immigration.

bradsbeard

rjsterry wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Really?
Are you sorry? I have my doubts.

You know your probably right.

Any luck finding something to back up that 95% claim?

BBC quote most arriving present as Iranian. I cannot recall where I read the 95% claim but reading gives an indication that most are Iranian.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-49662172

Pross

bradsbeard wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Really?
Are you sorry? I have my doubts.

You know your probably right.

Any luck finding something to back up that 95% claim?

BBC quote most arriving present as Iranian. I cannot recall where I read the 95% claim but reading gives an indication that most are Iranian.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-49662172

There's a linked article going back to last November about 100 immigrants claiming to be Iranian attempting to cross the Channel. My reading of the article is that they aren't necessarily Iranian but are claiming to be as that allowed them visa free entry into Serbia, where they were far better treated than Iraqis, Afghans, Syrians etc., before travelling on to the UK.

rjsterry

Pross wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

bradsbeard wrote:

Shouldn't asylum be claimed at the first EU country you encounter? If your that desperate to flee persecution then why do you want to come to the UK?

Economic migrants.

Sorry to be harsh but need to be returned back to France.

Really?
Are you sorry? I have my doubts.

You know your probably right.

Any luck finding something to back up that 95% claim?

BBC quote most arriving present as Iranian. I cannot recall where I read the 95% claim but reading gives an indication that most are Iranian.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-49662172

There's a linked article going back to last November about 100 immigrants claiming to be Iranian attempting to cross the Channel. My reading of the article is that they aren't necessarily Iranian but are claiming to be as that allowed them visa free entry into Serbia, where they were far better treated than Iraqis, Afghans, Syrians etc., before travelling on to the UK.

Quite a big difference between "some" and "95%".

Longshot

Veronese68 wrote:

I once had to listen to an idiot droning on about refugees and illegal immigrants claiming benefits and taking jobs. The fact that illegal immigrants can't claim as they are illegal was completely lost on him. It eventually became apparent he was talking about Eastern Europeans being here completely legally and working, he finished by saying he was fed up of it and if it carried on he would move to France.

France?! They have a worse immigration problem than we do.