New Zealand shootings.

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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    drlodge wrote:
    For those wishing to more actively support counter extremism, in all its forms, I might recommend you support Quilliam https://www.quilliaminternational.com/circle/
    Certainly can't argue with that.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    drlodge wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    drlodge wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    ...and then the response to an attack on mosques is "something is rotten in Islam". That starts to look like an unhealthy obsession.

    Who's saying that? Not me for sure. If you think I have, then quote me.

    Don't you understand the rules here. If it's decided you're a bigot, you're a bigot. That can be for something as simple as discussing Islamic extremism in a thread that was originally about a white supremacist attack. It's not as if all the other threads go way off topic on a regular basis...

    Well exactly. There are similarities between the two forms of terrorism, which is why I think its relevant bring up Islamic terrorism. They're both terrorism for a start and radicalisation for each is also very similar.

    What I didn't say, and which KG's post implied, is that "something is rotten with Islam" is in any way directly connected to the NZ incident, is a cause of it, or excuses it. Some people will always offer the least generous interpretation of what some else says. Something is rotten with Islam, its a mother lode of bad ideas. Something is rotten with white supremacy too, its despicable.

    It would help if you were more specific about what the something is. Saying simply "there is something rotten with Christianity" is of no use to those trying to deal with, say, Cardinal Pell. If you can distinguish between Christian denominations and pinpoint the specific issues that have led to that situation, you should do the same for Islamist terrorism.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Focusing on the ills of Christianity is fine as after all I can go down the local church and listen to Mavis to see if she is plotting an attack with Beril between coffee morning and fundraising. Not sure I stand much chance down the local mosque given I can't speak, read or write Arabic. They are most likely like Beril and Mavis but I would have no clue. Sure I could learn the language as part of my terror watch list volunteer role but it is all a bit time consuming if I am being honest and I live in the country so maybe your townies should take the lead on this. It should be noted that your white supremacist has probably never been to a church and certainly is not probably following any religious text. You don't need religion to be a terrorist but if you want to minimise the potential number of recruits of all backgrounds then you have to believe in education, equality and the norms of your society. Trying to be like the Muslim guy in Birmingham spouting that he does not recognise being gay as a valid sexual relationship and wanting the LGBT community air brushed out of society and the education system is not much different than the white supremacist believing that other races are inferior. It is just not cricket as some Englishman might say.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    I see your point but do you think that as a religion it's a case of educating the next generation of followers rather than trying to airbrush Islam out of society?
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Interesting watching the news this morning talking about people with a total irrational fear of Islam - the literal definition of Islamophobia.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    I see your point but do you think that as a religion it's a case of educating the next generation of followers rather than trying to airbrush Islam out of society?

    You can try to educate the next generation of followers of Islam however I might suggest that the best placed people to do this is the community following that religion. Sure I can point them in the right direction if they ever ask my views but as an engineer and someone with hobbies such as sailing and cycling I am limited in my reach to this community.

    Imagine being the child of the Birmingham organiser trying to stop LGBT issues being taught in his kids school. What do you think the dinner conversation might be like if you started to say that maybe the LGBT community should be free to choose with who they have sexual relations. I imagine it will be frosty putting it mildly. Best case is the kid has a good support network of friends and relatives that can show him an alternative view more accommodating view. Worst case he is the next extremist targeting a minority of the population through and indoctrination of hate for others. It is always entertaining watching minority groups claim the right to hold their religious views over another minority who have alternative views. It makes me increasingly less sympathetic to their plight when bad shit happens to their minority group by other equally deluded people. Then I put my rational head on and realise that it is better if we don't have minority groups free to run their own extreme views without challenge as it is bad for everyone.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Interesting juxtaposition of who Christians and Muslims are. One are harmless old biddies isn't the church as a social group the other are hardline Muslims who are just breeding the future of Islamic extremism. That's the way what you type comes across to me. Of course I doubt you actually see that as the complete story of those two religions. Afterall there's still a lot of violent extremism in Christianity too. It's spreading out too. Whether it's the likes of anti-abortionists spreading out of America or the kind of Christian preacher who does promote hate like that Floridian preacher who shall we say has highly flammatory views on Islam. I'm sure you'll see Christian bombers / terrorists too. That's even without lumping often Christian white supremacists into the equation.

    If you say all religion is bad but some are worse than others you're possibly right but trying to make a point by looking for extremely opposite examples is blatantly unjust.

    PS let's compare the Muslim tradition for giving away to charity a high proportion of their disposable income to the church of England's tendency to invest in large military companies or the Catholic Church's institutional cover up of child abuse by elements of their clergy or the wash houses in Ireland. Saints and sinners in all religion. Time we rooted them all out (of existence in our modern society?)!
  • Lagrange
    Lagrange Posts: 652
    Well stopping the supply of guns and banning virtually all ownership is a good idea.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Interesting juxtaposition of who Christians and Muslims are. One are harmless old biddies isn't the church as a social group the other are hardline Muslims who are just breeding the future of Islamic extremism. That's the way what you type comes across to me. Of course I doubt you actually see that as the complete story of those two religions. Afterall there's still a lot of violent extremism in Christianity too. It's spreading out too. Whether it's the likes of anti-abortionists spreading out of America or the kind of Christian preacher who does promote hate like that Floridian preacher who shall we say has highly flammatory views on Islam. I'm sure you'll see Christian bombers / terrorists too. That's even without lumping often Christian white supremacists into the equation.

    If you say all religion is bad but some are worse than others you're possibly right but trying to make a point by looking for extremely opposite examples is blatantly unjust.

    PS let's compare the Muslim tradition for giving away to charity a high proportion of their disposable income to the church of England's tendency to invest in large military companies or the Catholic Church's institutional cover up of child abuse by elements of their clergy or the wash houses in Ireland. Saints and sinners in all religion. Time we rooted them all out (of existence in our modern society?)!

    You could be right in terms of and international context but you are wrong in a UK context and the evidence supports that. If you can find a christian believer who importantly followed the religion and was an active participant in his local church that committed an act of mass murder which was then defined as terrorism fair play. I can find plenty of examples of those that met the above criteria in a Islamic context. Even if we look at demographics the last time I went to church I saw children under 12, adults with kids over 30 and a bunch of old people that would struggle to lift and AK47 let alone use it. I could not find any white supremacists in the 16-30 bracket that were looking for a spot of mass murder. This is why Islam has an image problem and the local vicar is not on TV explaining how his sermons have lead to extremism. I am not going to take responsibility for an religions image problem in wider society as I am not a follower and therefore don't have a vested interest in how the Islamic faith is viewed within the UK. If my local sailing club was creating extremists that wanted to kill others then don't get me wrong I would be right in their stamping that shit right out in a ruthless manner. How long did it take for the mosque to kick old hook hand out. The reality is that it only occurred when the sermons became so ridiculous that media attention began to circle. That is not an organisation that believes in the rule of British law. So in some ways it is the same as the catholic church and their response to paedophilia.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Lagrange wrote:
    Well stopping the supply of guns and banning virtually all ownership is a good idea.

    Maybe this is this particular idiots legacy of which he can be reminded of daily in jail.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Interesting juxtaposition of who Christians and Muslims are. One are harmless old biddies isn't the church as a social group the other are hardline Muslims who are just breeding the future of Islamic extremism. That's the way what you type comes across to me. Of course I doubt you actually see that as the complete story of those two religions. Afterall there's still a lot of violent extremism in Christianity too. It's spreading out too. Whether it's the likes of anti-abortionists spreading out of America or the kind of Christian preacher who does promote hate like that Floridian preacher who shall we say has highly flammatory views on Islam. I'm sure you'll see Christian bombers / terrorists too. That's even without lumping often Christian white supremacists into the equation.

    If you say all religion is bad but some are worse than others you're possibly right but trying to make a point by looking for extremely opposite examples is blatantly unjust.

    PS let's compare the Muslim tradition for giving away to charity a high proportion of their disposable income to the church of England's tendency to invest in large military companies or the Catholic Church's institutional cover up of child abuse by elements of their clergy or the wash houses in Ireland. Saints and sinners in all religion. Time we rooted them all out (of existence in our modern society?)!
    The amount of desperate straining to for false equivalence in this post is staggering.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    john80 wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Interesting juxtaposition of who Christians and Muslims are. One are harmless old biddies isn't the church as a social group the other are hardline Muslims who are just breeding the future of Islamic extremism. That's the way what you type comes across to me. Of course I doubt you actually see that as the complete story of those two religions. Afterall there's still a lot of violent extremism in Christianity too. It's spreading out too. Whether it's the likes of anti-abortionists spreading out of America or the kind of Christian preacher who does promote hate like that Floridian preacher who shall we say has highly flammatory views on Islam. I'm sure you'll see Christian bombers / terrorists too. That's even without lumping often Christian white supremacists into the equation.

    If you say all religion is bad but some are worse than others you're possibly right but trying to make a point by looking for extremely opposite examples is blatantly unjust.

    PS let's compare the Muslim tradition for giving away to charity a high proportion of their disposable income to the church of England's tendency to invest in large military companies or the Catholic Church's institutional cover up of child abuse by elements of their clergy or the wash houses in Ireland. Saints and sinners in all religion. Time we rooted them all out (of existence in our modern society?)!

    You could be right in terms of and international context but you are wrong in a UK context and the evidence supports that. If you can find a christian believer who importantly followed the religion and was an active participant in his local church that committed an act of mass murder which was then defined as terrorism fair play. I can find plenty of examples of those that met the above criteria in a Islamic context. Even if we look at demographics the last time I went to church I saw children under 12, adults with kids over 30 and a bunch of old people that would struggle to lift and AK47 let alone use it. I could not find any white supremacists in the 16-30 bracket that were looking for a spot of mass murder. This is why Islam has an image problem and the local vicar is not on TV explaining how his sermons have lead to extremism. I am not going to take responsibility for an religions image problem in wider society as I am not a follower and therefore don't have a vested interest in how the Islamic faith is viewed within the UK. If my local sailing club was creating extremists that wanted to kill others then don't get me wrong I would be right in their stamping that shoot right out in a ruthless manner. How long did it take for the mosque to kick old hook hand out. The reality is that it only occurred when the sermons became so ridiculous that media attention began to circle. That is not an organisation that believes in the rule of British law. So in some ways it is the same as the catholic church and their response to paedophilia.

    Islam isn't a single organisation any more than Christianity or Judaism. In the case of Hamza, it was only the trustees of that particular mosque who had any opportunity to do something about it.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    bompington wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Interesting juxtaposition of who Christians and Muslims are. One are harmless old biddies isn't the church as a social group the other are hardline Muslims who are just breeding the future of Islamic extremism. That's the way what you type comes across to me. Of course I doubt you actually see that as the complete story of those two religions. Afterall there's still a lot of violent extremism in Christianity too. It's spreading out too. Whether it's the likes of anti-abortionists spreading out of America or the kind of Christian preacher who does promote hate like that Floridian preacher who shall we say has highly flammatory views on Islam. I'm sure you'll see Christian bombers / terrorists too. That's even without lumping often Christian white supremacists into the equation.

    If you say all religion is bad but some are worse than others you're possibly right but trying to make a point by looking for extremely opposite examples is blatantly unjust.

    PS let's compare the Muslim tradition for giving away to charity a high proportion of their disposable income to the church of England's tendency to invest in large military companies or the Catholic Church's institutional cover up of child abuse by elements of their clergy or the wash houses in Ireland. Saints and sinners in all religion. Time we rooted them all out (of existence in our modern society?)!
    The amount of desperate straining to for false equivalence in this post is staggering.

    As much false equivalence as lumping, say, the Ahmadiyya sect in with Wahhabism?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    I'm not saying it's equivalent just that it's not all one sided. It's not all a homogeneous religion. All religions have extremists.

    There's many vibrant Christian churches around. Not all are the traditional CofE with old biddies and the odd younger families. One type is growing the other shrinking. Similarly there's many mosques with more moderate versions of their religion. There's always been a smaller number of problem mosques with problems of extremism. That I believe reflects the religion as a whole in the UK. Many practitioners are OK but the minority casts a long shadow over the whole religion.

    We're fortunate that in this country people are generally ambivalent about religion. There's more Christians who only go to churches for weddings, baptism and funerals than there are so actually practise it. I think it's the way forward, to lose religion as something that impacts your life.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    Lagrange wrote:
    Well stopping the supply of guns and banning virtually all ownership is a good idea.

    I'm always a little war of kneejerk reactions to ban things. I suppose there are probably some good arguments for gun ownership especially in rural parts of the USA where law enforcement can't really protect you. Likewise, there are probably some good arguments for not banning guns in NZ. The attacker broke several gun laws in order to carry out the attack.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    I'm not saying it's equivalent just that it's not all one sided. It's not all a homogeneous religion. All religions have extremists.

    There's many vibrant Christian churches around. Not all are the traditional CofE with old biddies and the odd younger families. One type is growing the other shrinking. Similarly there's many mosques with more moderate versions of their religion. There's always been a smaller number of problem mosques with problems of extremism. That I believe reflects the religion as a whole in the UK. Many practitioners are OK but the minority casts a long shadow over the whole religion.

    We're fortunate that in this country people are generally ambivalent about religion. There's more Christians who only go to churches for weddings, baptism and funerals than there are so actually practise it. I think it's the way forward, to lose religion as something that impacts your life.

    All religions can be bad and bad things can be done in their name. However, at the moment, in the West there are no terrorists acting in the name of Christianity and citing verses of the bible in doing so.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    nickice wrote:
    Lagrange wrote:
    Well stopping the supply of guns and banning virtually all ownership is a good idea.

    I'm always a little war of kneejerk reactions to ban things. I suppose there are probably some good arguments for gun ownership especially in rural parts of the USA where law enforcement can't really protect you. Likewise, there are probably some good arguments for not banning guns in NZ. The attacker broke several gun laws in order to carry out the attack.

    Lot of evidence to suggest banning guns has a good correlation and causation with reducing gun related crimes.
    _
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Lagrange wrote:
    Well stopping the supply of guns and banning virtually all ownership is a good idea.

    I'm always a little war of kneejerk reactions to ban things. I suppose there are probably some good arguments for gun ownership especially in rural parts of the USA where law enforcement can't really protect you. Likewise, there are probably some good arguments for not banning guns in NZ. The attacker broke several gun laws in order to carry out the attack.

    Lot of evidence to suggest banning guns has a good correlation and causation with reducing gun related crimes.

    It's the kneejerk reaction I don't like. Rushed legislation tends to be ill-thought-out bad legislation.
  • Lagrange
    Lagrange Posts: 652
    john80 wrote:
    Lagrange wrote:
    Well stopping the supply of guns and banning virtually all ownership is a good idea.

    Maybe this is this particular idiots legacy of which he can be reminded of daily in jail.


    I suppose so as he won't be shot as all the guns are banned...
  • Lagrange
    Lagrange Posts: 652
    nickice wrote:
    Lagrange wrote:
    Well stopping the supply of guns and banning virtually all ownership is a good idea.

    I'm always a little war of kneejerk reactions to ban things. I suppose there are probably some good arguments for gun ownership especially in rural parts of the USA where law enforcement can't really protect you. Likewise, there are probably some good arguments for not banning guns in NZ. The attacker broke several gun laws in order to carry out the attack.


    In the USA the pro gun argument is based on the right to carry arms - not the purpose that they are used for. Unreliable law enforcement is never used by the gun lobby - they would be mad to go there.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    nickice wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    I'm not saying it's equivalent just that it's not all one sided. It's not all a homogeneous religion. All religions have extremists.

    There's many vibrant Christian churches around. Not all are the traditional CofE with old biddies and the odd younger families. One type is growing the other shrinking. Similarly there's many mosques with more moderate versions of their religion. There's always been a smaller number of problem mosques with problems of extremism. That I believe reflects the religion as a whole in the UK. Many practitioners are OK but the minority casts a long shadow over the whole religion.

    We're fortunate that in this country people are generally ambivalent about religion. There's more Christians who only go to churches for weddings, baptism and funerals than there are so actually practise it. I think it's the way forward, to lose religion as something that impacts your life.

    All religions can be bad and bad things can be done in their name. However, at the moment, in the West there are no terrorists acting in the name of Christianity and citing verses of the bible in doing so.
    Of course. But this is partly because Christians, are to quite a large degree in control of the West. They have power. Terrorism arises in part from a lack of power to achieve aims through conventional means.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    rjsterry wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    I'm not saying it's equivalent just that it's not all one sided. It's not all a homogeneous religion. All religions have extremists.

    There's many vibrant Christian churches around. Not all are the traditional CofE with old biddies and the odd younger families. One type is growing the other shrinking. Similarly there's many mosques with more moderate versions of their religion. There's always been a smaller number of problem mosques with problems of extremism. That I believe reflects the religion as a whole in the UK. Many practitioners are OK but the minority casts a long shadow over the whole religion.

    We're fortunate that in this country people are generally ambivalent about religion. There's more Christians who only go to churches for weddings, baptism and funerals than there are so actually practise it. I think it's the way forward, to lose religion as something that impacts your life.

    All religions can be bad and bad things can be done in their name. However, at the moment, in the West there are no terrorists acting in the name of Christianity and citing verses of the bible in doing so.
    Of course. But this is partly because Christians, are to quite a large degree in control of the West. They have power. Terrorism arises in part from a lack of power to achieve aims through conventional means.

    Christian minorities are not committing terrorist acts in majority Muslim countries despite severe persecution in countries like Egypt.
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    nickice wrote:
    Lagrange wrote:
    Well stopping the supply of guns and banning virtually all ownership is a good idea.

    I'm always a little war of kneejerk reactions to ban things. I suppose there are probably some good arguments for gun ownership especially in rural parts of the USA where law enforcement can't really protect you. Likewise, there are probably some good arguments for not banning guns in NZ. The attacker broke several gun laws in order to carry out the attack.

    That will never happen in NZ, just as it will never happen in rural parts of the UK. It's nothing to do with law enforcement, but to do with the fact they are a vital tool for rural activities and management. There are nearly 2m shotguns and rifles in the UK, very thorough background checks and unsurprisingly very few automatic and semi automatic weapons. I'd be hugely in favour of the USA and NZ moving to a UK system, but the US has a real issue with malicious use unlike NZ (for the most part) and it would be extremely costly to deal with. Banning all guns is a knee jerk though
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    HaydenM wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Lagrange wrote:
    Well stopping the supply of guns and banning virtually all ownership is a good idea.

    I'm always a little war of kneejerk reactions to ban things. I suppose there are probably some good arguments for gun ownership especially in rural parts of the USA where law enforcement can't really protect you. Likewise, there are probably some good arguments for not banning guns in NZ. The attacker broke several gun laws in order to carry out the attack.

    That will never happen in NZ, just as it will never happen in rural parts of the UK. It's nothing to do with law enforcement, but to do with the fact they are a vital tool for rural activities and management. There are nearly 2m shotguns and rifles in the UK, very thorough background checks and unsurprisingly very few automatic and semi automatic weapons. I'd be hugely in favour of the USA and NZ moving to a UK system, but the US has a real issue with malicious use unlike NZ (for the most part) and it would be extremely costly to deal with. Banning all guns is a knee jerk though

    Much of these rural activities are things that city dwellers would view as the function of law enforcement. A dangerous wild animal in urban America would be dealt with by law enforcement, for exampm. It's not just about protecting your property from burglars.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    What is the definition of terrorism? Could the violent actions of some Christian, anti-abortion activists who threaten and even kill workers at clinics be called terrorism? Genuine question. So far in the UK it hasn't got that bad but I remember reading about us Christian organisations funding and setting up groups in the UK who do the lower level form of harassment outside UK clinics. In the UK they are unlikely to be in a position of power such that they can change the law to suit their beliefs so could that lead to actual violence one day? They often use their interpretation of religion to justify things they do.

    Not like Islamic extremism but it's still a form of extremism at the more active end of it. BTW this isn't about comparison. It's about disputing the idea that Christianity is a nice, harmless and fluffy religion full of aged Bettys and Doris' who's most extreme behaviour is to have two biscuits at a coffee morning not one. There's violence done in the name of all religions and possibly it's a part of almost all religions to have these extremists.

    BTW I'm an atheist in case you know. I converted from Christianity because an evangelist teacher, who I really liked as a good teacher, was using anything he could to preach at us. Ridiculous things that intelligent design forms part of.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    nickice wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    I'm not saying it's equivalent just that it's not all one sided. It's not all a homogeneous religion. All religions have extremists.

    There's many vibrant Christian churches around. Not all are the traditional CofE with old biddies and the odd younger families. One type is growing the other shrinking. Similarly there's many mosques with more moderate versions of their religion. There's always been a smaller number of problem mosques with problems of extremism. That I believe reflects the religion as a whole in the UK. Many practitioners are OK but the minority casts a long shadow over the whole religion.

    We're fortunate that in this country people are generally ambivalent about religion. There's more Christians who only go to churches for weddings, baptism and funerals than there are so actually practise it. I think it's the way forward, to lose religion as something that impacts your life.

    All religions can be bad and bad things can be done in their name. However, at the moment, in the West there are no terrorists acting in the name of Christianity and citing verses of the bible in doing so.
    Of course. But this is partly because Christians, are to quite a large degree in control of the West. They have power. Terrorism arises in part from a lack of power to achieve aims through conventional means.

    Christian minorities are not committing terrorist acts in majority Muslim countries despite severe persecution in countries like Egypt.

    True. I wasn't suggesting that was the whole story.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    What is the definition of terrorism? Could the violent actions of some Christian, anti-abortion activists who threaten and even kill workers at clinics be called terrorism? Genuine question. So far in the UK it hasn't got that bad but I remember reading about us Christian organisations funding and setting up groups in the UK who do the lower level form of harassment outside UK clinics. In the UK they are unlikely to be in a position of power such that they can change the law to suit their beliefs so could that lead to actual violence one day? They often use their interpretation of religion to justify things they do.

    Not like Islamic extremism but it's still a form of extremism at the more active end of it. BTW this isn't about comparison. It's about disputing the idea that Christianity is a nice, harmless and fluffy religion full of aged Bettys and Doris' who's most extreme behaviour is to have two biscuits at a coffee morning not one. There's violence done in the name of all religions and possibly it's a part of almost all religions to have these extremists.

    BTW I'm an atheist in case you know. I converted from Christianity because an evangelist teacher, who I really liked as a good teacher, was using anything he could to preach at us. Ridiculous things that intelligent design forms part of.

    Abortion clinic bombings would absolutely be considered terrorism. Standing and protesting outside abortion clinics would not.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    rjsterry wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    I'm not saying it's equivalent just that it's not all one sided. It's not all a homogeneous religion. All religions have extremists.

    There's many vibrant Christian churches around. Not all are the traditional CofE with old biddies and the odd younger families. One type is growing the other shrinking. Similarly there's many mosques with more moderate versions of their religion. There's always been a smaller number of problem mosques with problems of extremism. That I believe reflects the religion as a whole in the UK. Many practitioners are OK but the minority casts a long shadow over the whole religion.

    We're fortunate that in this country people are generally ambivalent about religion. There's more Christians who only go to churches for weddings, baptism and funerals than there are so actually practise it. I think it's the way forward, to lose religion as something that impacts your life.

    All religions can be bad and bad things can be done in their name. However, at the moment, in the West there are no terrorists acting in the name of Christianity and citing verses of the bible in doing so.
    Of course. But this is partly because Christians, are to quite a large degree in control of the West. They have power. Terrorism arises in part from a lack of power to achieve aims through conventional means.

    Christian minorities are not committing terrorist acts in majority Muslim countries despite severe persecution in countries like Egypt.

    True. I wasn't suggesting that was the whole story.

    Chinese govt has imprsioned around a million Muslims for being Muslim however.
    _
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Chinese govt has imprisoned around a million Muslims for being Muslim however.
    Not quite sure what your point is here, but very true. China has killed and imprisoned a lot of Christians too, it's a pretty much equal-opportunities oppressor.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    bompington wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Chinese govt has imprisoned around a million Muslims for being Muslim however.
    Not quite sure what your point is here, but very true. China has killed and imprisoned a lot of Christians too, it's a pretty much equal-opportunities oppressor.

    No this is a little different.
    _

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