New Zealand shootings.

rick_chasey

drlodge wrote:

I haven't singled Muslims out, I haven't even mention Muslims. I've been talking about Islam. One is a people, the other is a set of ideas. Ideas lead to beliefs that lead to behaviours.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

I don’t even know where to start.


You know that, ideas are held by, y’know, people, right?

Alejandrosdog

ricks not answering me now, it seems the facts linking islam to the people are too uncomfortable and best left alone.

drlodge

No idea is above criticism, no people are beneath dignity.

Extremist people are not the biggest problem here, its their ideas. Ideas will spread. Kill the ideas and you'll solve extremism.

Where do you think the word extremism comes from? Extremist people, or extremist ideas?

rick_chasey

This is all rather epistemological but without people ideas don’t exist.

rick_chasey

Let me rephrase. In the context of this thread, why did you single out Islam?

rjsterry

Alejandrosdog wrote:

the office for national statistics provides census data showing that the last time around there were 3,372,966 people who identified as muslim.

Only 34% of those would report to police if they knew someone close to them who had become involved with Jihadists.

i.e. 64% would at the very least provide shelter that is 2,158,698 terrorist supporting muslims. in the uk alone.

23% think sharia law should replace british law in areas with large muslim populations. thats over 775,000 british muslims wanting to follow the directions literal or otherwise of the Koran. note they dont just believe muslims should be ruled by it but non muslims too in areas designated as largely muslim.

it just doesnt hold true that the islamic terrorism is only about a few people.

Looks like a lot of evidence of thought crimes there. Bang 'em up, I say.

mr_goo

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So why do people do such awful things for such a variety of ideologies?

Earlier you were suggesting it was something specific to Islam because of the Koran. So which is it?

Islam is a religion, which is an ideology. Its a set of ideas. And there are consequences for a person's behaviour depending on what they truly believe.

If you truly believe in Martyrdom, that if you sacrifice yourself in the name of fighting for your religion/ideology and you will go to heaven which really exists, you'll have no qualms about blowing yourself up.

But why did you single Muslims out and why did you suggest that Isis ideology is not entirely unrepresentative of all Muslims, despite being absolutely extreme and a tiny minority of a vast population?

You need to add some facts Rick, your suggestion that islamic terrorism is only about a very small percentage of the population is wrong

Just to see if Rick bites.

CommRes poll conducted after the Charlie Hebdo shootings, commissioned and published by the BBC.

27% of British Muslims said they had sympathy for the motives behind the attack.

46% feel prejudice against Islam makes it difficult being Muslim in Britain

78% are offended when images of the Prophet Muhammad are published

11% feel sympathy for people who want to fight against western interests.

Asked if acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhammad can "never be justified", 68% agreed that such violence was never justifiable.

But 24% disagreed with the statement, while the rest replied "don't know" or refused to answer.

I think Muslims are in the best position to answer the questions facing certain aspects of modern integrated (or not) societies.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I haven't singled Muslims out, I haven't even mention Muslims. I've been talking about Islam. One is a people, the other is a set of ideas. Ideas lead to beliefs that lead to behaviours.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

I don’t even know where to start.


You know that, ideas are held by, y’know, people, right?

it is just a re-run of the anti-semitism debate.

in a way it is a shame that having contrary opinions is so vilified as it prevents people from saying "I have a distrust of all muslims/jews etc"

I think that allowing people to chose their own gender is batsh1t crazy but you know what I keep my views to myself because I will be vilified.

kingstongraham

This thread is very depressing. This is not the aftermath of a terror attack in the name of radical Islamists. Quite a few people seem to have taken an attack on peaceful Muslims in a peaceful place as a reason/excuse to denigrate either the religion of Islam or Muslims.

I don't understand why.

shirley_basso

Well it has emboldened the likes of alejandrosdog and drlodge to spout their drivel

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I haven't singled Muslims out, I haven't even mention Muslims. I've been talking about Islam. One is a people, the other is a set of ideas. Ideas lead to beliefs that lead to behaviours.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

I don’t even know where to start.


You know that, ideas are held by, y’know, people, right?

it is just a re-run of the anti-semitism debate.

in a way it is a shame that having contrary opinions is so vilified as it prevents people from saying "I have a distrust of all muslims/jews etc"

I think that allowing people to chose their own gender is batsh1t crazy but you know what I keep my views to myself because I will be vilified.

Were you to discuss it, I feel you could do so without refering to those you disagree with as "liberati". It would also be easier if people didn't get quite so offended when it is suggested that their views are based on prejudice to some degree.

rjsterry

Mr Goo wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So why do people do such awful things for such a variety of ideologies?

Earlier you were suggesting it was something specific to Islam because of the Koran. So which is it?

Islam is a religion, which is an ideology. Its a set of ideas. And there are consequences for a person's behaviour depending on what they truly believe.

If you truly believe in Martyrdom, that if you sacrifice yourself in the name of fighting for your religion/ideology and you will go to heaven which really exists, you'll have no qualms about blowing yourself up.

But why did you single Muslims out and why did you suggest that Isis ideology is not entirely unrepresentative of all Muslims, despite being absolutely extreme and a tiny minority of a vast population?

You need to add some facts Rick, your suggestion that islamic terrorism is only about a very small percentage of the population is wrong

Just to see if Rick bites.

CommRes poll conducted after the Charlie Hebdo shootings, commissioned and published by the BBC.

27% of British Muslims said they had sympathy for the motives behind the attack.

46% feel prejudice against Islam makes it difficult being Muslim in Britain

78% are offended when images of the Prophet Muhammad are published

11% feel sympathy for people who want to fight against western interests.

Asked if acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhammad can "never be justified", 68% agreed that such violence was never justifiable.

But 24% disagreed with the statement, while the rest replied "don't know" or refused to answer.

I think Muslims are in the best position to answer the questions facing certain aspects of modern integrated (or not) societies.

Given the results of other surveys of attitudes, you might want to be careful what conclusions you draw.

Here's one of Christians in Western Europe.

http://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/bein ... rn-europe/

Some not very Christian findings.

Christian identity in Western Europe is associated with higher levels of negative sentiment toward immigrants and religious minorities. On balance, self-identified Christians – whether they attend church or not – are more likely than religiously unaffiliated people to express negative views of immigrants, as well as of Muslims and Jews.
Non-practicing Christians are less likely than church-attending Christians to express nationalist views. Still, they are more likely than “nones” to say that their culture is superior to others and that it is necessary to have the country’s ancestry to share the national identity (e.g., one must have Spanish family background to be truly Spanish).

Another survey found that about a quarter of the population, and a third of men admit to being racially prejudiced to some degree.

mr_goo

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So why do people do such awful things for such a variety of ideologies?

Earlier you were suggesting it was something specific to Islam because of the Koran. So which is it?

Islam is a religion, which is an ideology. Its a set of ideas. And there are consequences for a person's behaviour depending on what they truly believe.

If you truly believe in Martyrdom, that if you sacrifice yourself in the name of fighting for your religion/ideology and you will go to heaven which really exists, you'll have no qualms about blowing yourself up.

But why did you single Muslims out and why did you suggest that Isis ideology is not entirely unrepresentative of all Muslims, despite being absolutely extreme and a tiny minority of a vast population?

You need to add some facts Rick, your suggestion that islamic terrorism is only about a very small percentage of the population is wrong

Just to see if Rick bites.

CommRes poll conducted after the Charlie Hebdo shootings, commissioned and published by the BBC.

27% of British Muslims said they had sympathy for the motives behind the attack.

46% feel prejudice against Islam makes it difficult being Muslim in Britain

78% are offended when images of the Prophet Muhammad are published

11% feel sympathy for people who want to fight against western interests.

Asked if acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhammad can "never be justified", 68% agreed that such violence was never justifiable.

But 24% disagreed with the statement, while the rest replied "don't know" or refused to answer.

I think Muslims are in the best position to answer the questions facing certain aspects of modern integrated (or not) societies.

Given the results of other surveys of attitudes, you might want to be careful what conclusions you draw.

Here's one of Christians in Western Europe.

http://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/bein ... rn-europe/

Some not very Christian findings.

Christian identity in Western Europe is associated with higher levels of negative sentiment toward immigrants and religious minorities. On balance, self-identified Christians – whether they attend church or not – are more likely than religiously unaffiliated people to express negative views of immigrants, as well as of Muslims and Jews.
Non-practicing Christians are less likely than church-attending Christians to express nationalist views. Still, they are more likely than “nones” to say that their culture is superior to others and that it is necessary to have the country’s ancestry to share the national identity (e.g., one must have Spanish family background to be truly Spanish).

Another survey found that about a quarter of the population, and a third of men admit to being racially prejudiced to some degree.

I think you'll find its probably the case that every human being on planet earth has a degree of prejudice (not just race or religion). It's in our wiring it's who we are. We are not the Eloy.

rjsterry

drlodge wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

If your insight is that people use ideology to justify barbarity, I suppose that is at least relevant to the original thread topic.

This is much closer to the real issue now, but I'm not saying that people use ideology to justify barbarity, rather ideology is one of the causes of the barbarity. You can kill all the ISIS people you want, but unless you kill the ideology you won't have won the war.

And how do we resolve the growing right wing extremism? One good thing to do is to identify and call out their ideology so society at large rejects it. Putting right wing extremists behind bars or shooting them dead will do very little.

People ignore the inconvenient bits of supposedly rigid ideology all the time; particularly those who shout loudest about their ideology. Plenty of avowedly devout Christians are completely fine with a whole list of behaviours that the Gospels specifically instruct against. As soon as people think they can get away with it they revert to their baser instincts for gain and self gratification.

rjsterry

Mr Goo wrote:

I think you'll find its probably the case that every human being on planet earth has a degree of prejudice (not just race or religion). It's in our wiring it's who we are. We are not the Eloy.

Precisely. It would be weird if that survey of Muslim attitudes found that they were all a bunch of liberal wets.

sgt.pepper

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I think you'll find its probably the case that every human being on planet earth has a degree of prejudice (not just race or religion). It's in our wiring it's who we are. We are not the Eloy.

Precisely. It would be weird if that survey of Muslim attitudes found that they were all a bunch of liberal wets.

There's being a 'wet liberal,' and a half of survey participants believing homosexuality should be illegal. That goes a bit beyond 'a bit iffy about seeing blokes kiss.'

Yesterday the PM came out in a headscarf, an international symbol of oppression that women in Islamic countries have been fighting against.

None of this justifies the murder of innocents, but some serious question do have to be asked about the compatibility of Islam with modern, Western ideals. The American hard-Right and the Catholic Church being a 6 in unpleasant doesn't stop Islam being a 9.

john80

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-47613578

This makes some uncomfortable reading. If you want to control or minimise the rise of the far right then unfortunately you have to fight all comers to non compliance with UK laws. Even Muslims unless you want a small group of society to impact the lives of others. Would we let the far right demonstrate outside schools for their admission policy to be all white or sections of the curriculum to be removed as it sought to counter their racism. The answer is no we would not. Tolerance to others living their lives within UK laws starts at home I am afraid.

Jez mon

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I think you'll find its probably the case that every human being on planet earth has a degree of prejudice (not just race or religion). It's in our wiring it's who we are. We are not the Eloy.

Precisely. It would be weird if that survey of Muslim attitudes found that they were all a bunch of liberal wets.

There's being a 'wet liberal,' and a half of survey participants believing homosexuality should be illegal. That goes a bit beyond 'a bit iffy about seeing blokes kiss.'

Yesterday the PM came out in a headscarf, an international symbol of oppression that women in Islamic countries have been fighting against.

None of this justifies the murder of innocents, but some serious question do have to be asked about the compatibility of Islam with modern, Western ideals. The American hard-Right and the Catholic Church being a 6 in unpleasant doesn't stop Islam being a 9.

Surely 'Islam' is a range, from eats bacon and drinks beer, but occasionally goes to prayer, to prays 5 times a day and observes Ramadan, and then, right on the most extreme, you have the Islam that suggests violence.

It's a massive spectrum.

mr_goo

Jez mon wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I think you'll find its probably the case that every human being on planet earth has a degree of prejudice (not just race or religion). It's in our wiring it's who we are. We are not the Eloy.

Precisely. It would be weird if that survey of Muslim attitudes found that they were all a bunch of liberal wets.

There's being a 'wet liberal,' and a half of survey participants believing homosexuality should be illegal. That goes a bit beyond 'a bit iffy about seeing blokes kiss.'

Yesterday the PM came out in a headscarf, an international symbol of oppression that women in Islamic countries have been fighting against.

None of this justifies the murder of innocents, but some serious question do have to be asked about the compatibility of Islam with modern, Western ideals. The American hard-Right and the Catholic Church being a 6 in unpleasant doesn't stop Islam being a 9.

Surely 'Islam' is a range, from eats bacon and drinks beer, but occasionally goes to prayer, to prays 5 times a day and observes Ramadan, and then, right on the most extreme, you have the Islam that suggests violence.

It's a massive spectrum.

I'm pretty sure that modern day Islam has actually become more orthodox and prescriptive since 1980s.
Much of it being driven by various avenues from Saudi.
I think it was a huge mistake for Jacinda Ardern to have worn the headscarf which is a symbol of oppression and a rejection of progressive values for females trapped in the mysogynistic world of Islam. And for then to have said As Salamu Alaykum in parliament an even greater faux pas.

kingstongraham

Bloody hell.

Alejandrosdog

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I think you'll find its probably the case that every human being on planet earth has a degree of prejudice (not just race or religion). It's in our wiring it's who we are. We are not the Eloy.

Precisely. It would be weird if that survey of Muslim attitudes found that they were all a bunch of liberal wets.

There's being a 'wet liberal,' and a half of survey participants believing homosexuality should be illegal. That goes a bit beyond 'a bit iffy about seeing blokes kiss.'

Yesterday the PM came out in a headscarf, an international symbol of oppression that women in Islamic countries have been fighting against.

None of this justifies the murder of innocents, but some serious question do have to be asked about the compatibility of Islam with modern, Western ideals. The American hard-Right and the Catholic Church being a 6 in unpleasant doesn't stop Islam being a 9.

All true. Rsterry is already legitimising Islamic terrorism and saying it’s because of what we did. Like the buffoon Rick saying the Mau Mau was good and it’s all Britain’s fault. It’s like listening to children with a new bit of information independant of the true picture.

rjsterry

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I think you'll find its probably the case that every human being on planet earth has a degree of prejudice (not just race or religion). It's in our wiring it's who we are. We are not the Eloy.

Precisely. It would be weird if that survey of Muslim attitudes found that they were all a bunch of liberal wets.

There's being a 'wet liberal,' and a half of survey participants believing homosexuality should be illegal. That goes a bit beyond 'a bit iffy about seeing blokes kiss.'

Yesterday the PM came out in a headscarf, an international symbol of oppression that women in Islamic countries have been fighting against.

None of this justifies the murder of innocents, but some serious question do have to be asked about the compatibility of Islam with modern, Western ideals. The American hard-Right and the Catholic Church being a 6 in unpleasant doesn't stop Islam being a 9.

A third of the population of the UK still believed homosexuality was wrong in 2013. I think they're mistaken as well. Likewise suggesting that the murder of anyone - innocent or not - is justified? Actually there was one person on here suggesting it but I'm sure that was just for the lulz. If we can distinguish between more and less conservative Christian denominations, it's reasonable to not treat Muslims as one monolithic group.

rjsterry

Alejandrosdog wrote:

All true. Rsterry is already legitimising Islamic terrorism

Priceless.

tangled_metal

A mate at school (mostly white pupils but a small number of Muslim pupils in each year - Blackburn so you'd expect more) supported Iraq in first gulf War. He drank more alcohol than me and practised Ramadan if he felt like it on a year by year basis. Most of the other Muslim pupils in my year hung together, he mixed completely.

A mate many years later worked for LEA in an outdoor centre. At the time the government was funding social inclusion projects. He was involved in taking groups of young kids about 7 years old climbing and other teamwork types of challenges / activities. These were with kids from Muslim and white neighborhoods across certain towns in the county with low levels of contact between the two communities. He told us that when the parents dropped them off they were separate. Within half an hour after their parents left they were best of friends with both sets of kids being fully integrated.

Then at the end of those days he'd be waiting with the kids still having fun together. The first set of parents to turn up and the two sets of kids separated.

This issue has complexity beyond looking at religion. It's cultural above all. BTW I didn't say which community initiated the separation on those integration days my mate was involved in. It was both, whites split when white parent turned up. Muslim kids moved away from white kids when Muslim parents turned up first. Division was with the parents not the kids and the division was mutual with both communities.

This digression I guess is really about saying people are culturally programmed to be tribal. This can be based on religion, skin colour or anything we as a species use to divide ourselves. Kids don't have this at birth, it's developed as they grow up due to parental influence. Hard to change that.

DeVlaeminck

Tangled Metal wrote:

This issue has complexity beyond looking at religion. It's cultural above all. BTW I didn't say which community initiated the separation on those integration days my mate was involved in. It was both, whites split when white parent turned up. Muslim kids moved away from white kids when Muslim parents turned up first. Division was with the parents not the kids and the division was mutual with both communities.

This digression I guess is really about saying people are culturally programmed to be tribal. This can be based on religion, skin colour or anything we as a species use to divide ourselves. Kids don't have this at birth, it's developed as they grow up due to parental influence. Hard to change that.

A couple of my daughter's old mates lost contact with their friendship group because the parents didn't want them knocking about with non-muslim. You are talking about a group of well behaved, mostly academically able, responsible black and white girls here not a group of low level criminal teenagers that might be considered a bad influence.

The other muslim girl in their group that is still mates with them has had to leave her home and go and live with her gran because her mum was trying to make her live as a devout muslim - the upshot is the girl has now renounced the religion all together - much to her grans joy as she hates the fact her own daughter converted in the first place. It's this kind of shit which isn't actually uncommon at all.

mr_goo

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

This issue has complexity beyond looking at religion. It's cultural above all. BTW I didn't say which community initiated the separation on those integration days my mate was involved in. It was both, whites split when white parent turned up. Muslim kids moved away from white kids when Muslim parents turned up first. Division was with the parents not the kids and the division was mutual with both communities.

This digression I guess is really about saying people are culturally programmed to be tribal. This can be based on religion, skin colour or anything we as a species use to divide ourselves. Kids don't have this at birth, it's developed as they grow up due to parental influence. Hard to change that.

A couple of my daughter's old mates lost contact with their friendship group because the parents didn't want them knocking about with non-muslim. You are talking about a group of well behaved, mostly academically able, responsible black and white girls here not a group of low level criminal teenagers that might be considered a bad influence.

The other muslim girl in their group that is still mates with them has had to leave her home and go and live with her gran because her mum was trying to make her live as a devout muslim - the upshot is the girl has now renounced the religion all together - much to her grans joy as she hates the fact her own daughter converted in the first place. It's this kind of shoot which isn't actually uncommon at all.

I used to work with a young UK/Bangladeshi bloke who had renounced Islam. He was married to a white girl which had so incensed his family that his 2 brothers attempted to abduct him and whisk him back to Bangladesh.

Alejandrosdog

Mr Goo wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

This issue has complexity beyond looking at religion. It's cultural above all. BTW I didn't say which community initiated the separation on those integration days my mate was involved in. It was both, whites split when white parent turned up. Muslim kids moved away from white kids when Muslim parents turned up first. Division was with the parents not the kids and the division was mutual with both communities.

This digression I guess is really about saying people are culturally programmed to be tribal. This can be based on religion, skin colour or anything we as a species use to divide ourselves. Kids don't have this at birth, it's developed as they grow up due to parental influence. Hard to change that.

A couple of my daughter's old mates lost contact with their friendship group because the parents didn't want them knocking about with non-muslim. You are talking about a group of well behaved, mostly academically able, responsible black and white girls here not a group of low level criminal teenagers that might be considered a bad influence.

The other muslim girl in their group that is still mates with them has had to leave her home and go and live with her gran because her mum was trying to make her live as a devout muslim - the upshot is the girl has now renounced the religion all together - much to her grans joy as she hates the fact her own daughter converted in the first place. It's this kind of shoot which isn't actually uncommon at all.

I used to work with a young UK/Bangladeshi bloke who had renounced Islam. He was married to a white girl which had so incensed his family that his 2 brothers attempted to abduct him and whisk him back to Bangladesh.

Terrible, so called honour killings like the case of the woman who refused to marrry so her mother burnt her alive. Religion and culture combining in a truly vile way.

Large parts of the Muslim community make no effort to integrate and certainly don’t embrace western culture and values. Mind you watching the loose morales and promiscuity and materialism who can blame them. When bbc news is some orange faced celebrity nobody announcing he’s not gay or straight but a third way and Facebook has lamplovers group where women flaunt themselves maybe western values aren’t really worth embracing.

rick_chasey

Incredible a thread on this topic has ended up with people piling in on how awful Islam is and even spouting stats to suggest with Islam it’s *different* to the rest and is somehow more culpable for the phobia others have against it.

mr_goo

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

This issue has complexity beyond looking at religion. It's cultural above all. BTW I didn't say which community initiated the separation on those integration days my mate was involved in. It was both, whites split when white parent turned up. Muslim kids moved away from white kids when Muslim parents turned up first. Division was with the parents not the kids and the division was mutual with both communities.

This digression I guess is really about saying people are culturally programmed to be tribal. This can be based on religion, skin colour or anything we as a species use to divide ourselves. Kids don't have this at birth, it's developed as they grow up due to parental influence. Hard to change that.

A couple of my daughter's old mates lost contact with their friendship group because the parents didn't want them knocking about with non-muslim. You are talking about a group of well behaved, mostly academically able, responsible black and white girls here not a group of low level criminal teenagers that might be considered a bad influence.

The other muslim girl in their group that is still mates with them has had to leave her home and go and live with her gran because her mum was trying to make her live as a devout muslim - the upshot is the girl has now renounced the religion all together - much to her grans joy as she hates the fact her own daughter converted in the first place. It's this kind of shoot which isn't actually uncommon at all.

I used to work with a young UK/Bangladeshi bloke who had renounced Islam. He was married to a white girl which had so incensed his family that his 2 brothers attempted to abduct him and whisk him back to Bangladesh.

Terrible, so called honour killings like the case of the woman who refused to marrry so her mother burnt her alive. Religion and culture combining in a truly vile way.

Large parts of the Muslim community make no effort to integrate and certainly don’t embrace western culture and values. Mind you watching the loose morales and promiscuity and materialism who can blame them. When bbc news is some orange faced celebrity nobody announcing he’s not gay or straight but a third way and Facebook has lamplovers group where women flaunt themselves maybe western values aren’t really worth embracing.

The founder of Quilliam often states that the Koran is incompatible with modern civilisation. And that it's verses are so prescriptive that there is little room for any interpretation other than to do as it says. This has led to the 'impasse' of Islam v Rest of World.

mr_goo

Rick Chasey wrote:

Incredible a thread on this topic has ended up with people piling in on how awful Islam is and even spouting stats to suggest with Islam it’s *different* to the rest.

But it is different. No getting away from it Rick. Not saying Catholicism is any different BTW . Just that Islam if strictly followed is at odds with a progressive modern open culture.