New Zealand shootings.

shirley_basso

Mr Goo wrote:

I'm pretty sure that modern day Islam has actually become more orthodox and prescriptive since 1980s.
Much of it being driven by various avenues from Saudi.
I think it was a huge mistake for Jacinda Ardern to have worn the headscarf which is a symbol of oppression and a rejection of progressive values for females trapped in the mysogynistic world of Islam. And for then to have said As Salamu Alaykum in parliament an even greater faux pas.

ignorant and wrong. coming from mr goo i am not in the least bit surprised.

shirley_basso

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

This issue has complexity beyond looking at religion. It's cultural above all. BTW I didn't say which community initiated the separation on those integration days my mate was involved in. It was both, whites split when white parent turned up. Muslim kids moved away from white kids when Muslim parents turned up first. Division was with the parents not the kids and the division was mutual with both communities.

This digression I guess is really about saying people are culturally programmed to be tribal. This can be based on religion, skin colour or anything we as a species use to divide ourselves. Kids don't have this at birth, it's developed as they grow up due to parental influence. Hard to change that.

A couple of my daughter's old mates lost contact with their friendship group because the parents didn't want them knocking about with non-muslim. You are talking about a group of well behaved, mostly academically able, responsible black and white girls here not a group of low level criminal teenagers that might be considered a bad influence.

The other muslim girl in their group that is still mates with them has had to leave her home and go and live with her gran because her mum was trying to make her live as a devout muslim - the upshot is the girl has now renounced the religion all together - much to her grans joy as she hates the fact her own daughter converted in the first place. It's this kind of shoot which isn't actually uncommon at all.

I used to work with a young UK/Bangladeshi bloke who had renounced Islam. He was married to a white girl which had so incensed his family that his 2 brothers attempted to abduct him and whisk him back to Bangladesh.

Terrible, so called honour killings like the case of the woman who refused to marrry so her mother burnt her alive. Religion and culture combining in a truly vile way.

Large parts of the Muslim community make no effort to integrate and certainly don’t embrace western culture and values. Mind you watching the loose morales and promiscuity and materialism who can blame them. When bbc news is some orange faced celebrity nobody announcing he’s not gay or straight but a third way and Facebook has lamplovers group where women flaunt themselves maybe western values aren’t really worth embracing.

is it a muslim thing or a language thing? you could say the same for westerners in any non english speaking country.

the ignorant generalizstion in this thread is appalling

DeVlaeminck

It's not a language thing when they are British and speak English as well as you or I.

rick_chasey

Mr Goo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Incredible a thread on this topic has ended up with people piling in on how awful Islam is and even spouting stats to suggest with Islam it’s *different* to the rest.

But it is different. No getting away from it Rick. Not saying Catholicism is any different BTW . Just that Islam if strictly followed is at odds with a progressive modern open culture.

In the context of the very shootings this thread was originally about, that's pretty laughable.

kingstongraham

Rick Chasey wrote:

Incredible a thread on this topic has ended up with people piling in on how awful Islam is and even spouting stats to suggest with Islam it’s *different* to the rest and is somehow more culpable for the phobia others have against it.

The only inference I can take from the way this thread has gone is that the people using this thread to denigrate Islam or Muslims in some way believe the victims brought this on themselves by following their religion. Unless they are using this thread because they enjoy trolling and "owning the libs" and will take any opportunity. Which may be the case for some.

Not great either way.

rjsterry

Mr Goo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Incredible a thread on this topic has ended up with people piling in on how awful Islam is and even spouting stats to suggest with Islam it’s *different* to the rest.

But it is different. No getting away from it Rick. Not saying Catholicism is any different BTW . Just that Islam if strictly followed is at odds with a progressive modern open culture.

So different but similar to other socially conservative groups in society. Mind you, the views expressed about Islam in this thread are pretty much the same as those expressed about Catholicism in the 19th century (and still to this day in hardline Protestant circles): exactly the same fears of a lack of integration and divided loyalties.

Alejandrosdog

Shirley Basso wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

This issue has complexity beyond looking at religion. It's cultural above all. BTW I didn't say which community initiated the separation on those integration days my mate was involved in. It was both, whites split when white parent turned up. Muslim kids moved away from white kids when Muslim parents turned up first. Division was with the parents not the kids and the division was mutual with both communities.

This digression I guess is really about saying people are culturally programmed to be tribal. This can be based on religion, skin colour or anything we as a species use to divide ourselves. Kids don't have this at birth, it's developed as they grow up due to parental influence. Hard to change that.

A couple of my daughter's old mates lost contact with their friendship group because the parents didn't want them knocking about with non-muslim. You are talking about a group of well behaved, mostly academically able, responsible black and white girls here not a group of low level criminal teenagers that might be considered a bad influence.

The other muslim girl in their group that is still mates with them has had to leave her home and go and live with her gran because her mum was trying to make her live as a devout muslim - the upshot is the girl has now renounced the religion all together - much to her grans joy as she hates the fact her own daughter converted in the first place. It's this kind of shoot which isn't actually uncommon at all.

I used to work with a young UK/Bangladeshi bloke who had renounced Islam. He was married to a white girl which had so incensed his family that his 2 brothers attempted to abduct him and whisk him back to Bangladesh.

Terrible, so called honour killings like the case of the woman who refused to marrry so her mother burnt her alive. Religion and culture combining in a truly vile way.

Large parts of the Muslim community make no effort to integrate and certainly don’t embrace western culture and values. Mind you watching the loose morales and promiscuity and materialism who can blame them. When bbc news is some orange faced celebrity nobody announcing he’s not gay or straight but a third way and Facebook has lamplovers group where women flaunt themselves maybe western values aren’t really worth embracing.

is it a muslim thing or a language thing? you could say the same for westerners in any non english speaking country.

the ignorant generalizstion in this thread is appalling

It is unfortunately not just ignorant generalisation though, thats the problem. See the comments on "what Muslims really think" Britain and western culture has a very serious problem, Muslim communities generally don't integrate. 2/3rds of Britains muslims wouldn't tell the police if someone they knew had become involved in jihad. thats 2 million islamic terrorism supporters in the UK alone.

These are not hollow statistics or ignorant generalisations. Theyre comments the Muslim community has made about itself. See the trevor philips report and the guardian and liberal explaining and understanding and soul searching.

I'm no longer certain that all people are equal, thats just a utopian dream. The truth i suspect is that people are different and wish to remain so. They dont outside of happy clappy bubbles want to embrace each others differences. Rather they would prefer to snuff them out. an example is pushing for sharia law in the uk.

timothyw

Thank goodness we cyclists aren't a group of people widely villified for our unusual behaviours incompatible with modern civilisation.

Oh.

That's right, I remember, every time a cyclist gets killed on the roads the comments are full of people talking about cyclists jumping traffic lights, not wearing helmets, knocking over pedestrians, etc.

Please develop just a smidge of self awareness and a basic respect for the dead, or shut up.

kingstongraham

Unfortunately alejandrosdog, relevant to this thread, there is someone who would enjoy what you are posting.

rjsterry

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Mind you watching the loose morals and promiscuity and materialism who can blame them. When bbc news is some orange faced celebrity nobody announcing he’s not gay or straight but a third way and Facebook has lamplovers group where women flaunt themselves maybe western values aren’t really worth embracing.

Sounds like you should consider converting. You seem to have strong views on sexual orientation and what women should wear .

Alejandrosdog

TimothyW wrote:

Thank goodness we cyclists aren't a group of people widely villified for our unusual behaviours incompatible with modern civilisation.

Oh.

That's right, I remember, every time a cyclist gets killed on the roads the comments are full of people talking about cyclists jumping traffic lights, not wearing helmets, knocking over pedestrians, etc.

Please develop just a smidge of self awareness and a basic respect for the dead, or shut up.

are you equating wearing lycra to murder?

Alejandrosdog

KingstonGraham wrote:

Unfortunately alejandrosdog, relevant to this thread, there is someone who would enjoy what you are posting.

The truth is uncomfortable sometimes isnt it

tangled_metal

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Large parts of the Muslim community make no effort to integrate and certainly don’t embrace western culture and values.

Had to edit as multiple post copying leads to huge post windows which annoy me.

Anyway, a programme on TV a few years back put GPS units in Muslim driver taxi and in white driver taxi then followed their movements in Blackburn. It was to explain integration problems. Turns out both sides made no effort to integrate. It's tribal / cultural more than purely religious IMHO. When two tribes go to war...

timothyw

Alejandrosdog wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

Thank goodness we cyclists aren't a group of people widely villified for our unusual behaviours incompatible with modern civilisation.

Oh.

That's right, I remember, every time a cyclist gets killed on the roads the comments are full of people talking about cyclists jumping traffic lights, not wearing helmets, knocking over pedestrians, etc.

Please develop just a smidge of self awareness and a basic respect for the dead, or shut up.

are you equating wearing lycra to murder?

Are you now equating being a muslim with being a murderer?

kingstongraham

Alejandrosdog wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Unfortunately alejandrosdog, relevant to this thread, there is someone who would enjoy what you are posting.

The truth is uncomfortable sometimes isnt it

So you accept that you basically agree with the murderer? I think that's the point at which a troll gets a block from me. you're welcome to treat that as a win if that makes you feel something.

mr_goo

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Incredible a thread on this topic has ended up with people piling in on how awful Islam is and even spouting stats to suggest with Islam it’s *different* to the rest.

But it is different. No getting away from it Rick. Not saying Catholicism is any different BTW . Just that Islam if strictly followed is at odds with a progressive modern open culture.

So different but similar to other socially conservative groups in society. Mind you, the views expressed about Islam in this thread are pretty much the same as those expressed about Catholicism in the 19th century (and still to this day in hardline Protestant circles): exactly the same fears of a lack of integration and divided loyalties.

Or the way that Jews have been treated wherever they have set foot. Or the Huguenots who were forced to flee France due to catholic persecution. Etc.

A few on here are persecuting me for my comments on Islam. I'll make this very clear. I do not hate Muslims. Nor do I hate Catholics, Jews, Bhudists, Sikhs, Born Again Christians, Mormons etc etc.
My views come from a point that I think religion has not part to play in the 21st century. Most of the mainstream religions were constructs from centuries ago that were designed by educated men to control the uneducated masses.
However if anyone finds comfort and solace in practicing a religion and talking to 'god' or 'gods' then good for them. But don't knock on my door to tell me how wonderful a non existent omnipotent being is.
If a scholar back in 6th century middle east had written about a young man who could jump great heights, climb tall buildings, has super strength and can shoot super strong fibre from his wrists then there might now be 1.5 billion worshippers of Spiderman. It's all nonsense.
For society to progress and become tolerant then it would do well by banning faith schools of all religious beliefs. Change may only happen by the new generations. But if they're continually indoctrinated at school then all is lost.

rick_chasey

Persecuting?

Grow up mate, no-one's persecuting. They're calling out a view - not the same.

^^ I honestly never imagined that atheism would end up this way, castigating all faith as legitimising murderous terrorism.

kingstongraham

May I respectfully suggest creating an "I hate all religion, but choose to focus on Islam" thread.

rjsterry

Mr Goo wrote:

For society to progress and become tolerant then it would do well by banning faith schools of all religious beliefs.

Not sure banning anything is the way to encourage people to be more tolerant and better integrated into society.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

Persecuting?

Grow up mate, no-one's persecuting. They're calling out a view - not the same.

^^ I honestly never imagined that atheism would end up this way, castigating all faith as legitimising murderous terrorism.

Same as any other system of beliefs, innit.

drlodge

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

For society to progress and become tolerant then it would do well by banning faith schools of all religious beliefs.

Not sure banning anything is the way to encourage people to be more tolerant and better integrated into society.

Faith schools discriminate on the basis of Parents beliefs, we should ban such discrimination.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Persecuting?

Grow up mate, no-one's persecuting. They're calling out a view - not the same.

^^ I honestly never imagined that atheism would end up this way, castigating all faith as legitimising murderous terrorism.

Same as any other system of beliefs, innit.

Yes naive on my part

drlodge

Atheism is not a belief system and no one is legitimising terrorism.

Terrorism is driven by ideology and you cannot ignore the ideology, whether its Islam (Islamic terrorism) or White Supremacy.

surrey_commuter

Tangled Metal wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Large parts of the Muslim community make no effort to integrate and certainly don’t embrace western culture and values.

Had to edit as multiple post copying leads to huge post windows which annoy me.

Anyway, a programme on TV a few years back put GPS units in Muslim driver taxi and in white driver taxi then followed their movements in Blackburn. It was to explain integration problems. Turns out both sides made no effort to integrate. It's tribal / cultural more than purely religious IMHO. When two tribes go to war...

I seen it argued in debates on immigration is the problem that these people come from poor backwards rural communities. The immigration rules mean it is difficult for anybody other than dependents to enter so these communities are perpetuating this problem. The problem being poverty and a lack of education.

rjsterry

drlodge wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

For society to progress and become tolerant then it would do well by banning faith schools of all religious beliefs.

Not sure banning anything is the way to encourage people to be more tolerant and better integrated into society.

Faith schools discriminate on the basis of Parents beliefs, we should ban such discrimination.

It's not an ideal set up but it's a legacy of the churches being the main provider of education. I don't think it is practical to somehow extract the churches or other religious organisations from those schools without losing some of the benefits that the VA sector provides. There are rules on admissions policies with a limit on the proportion of places allocated by faith, although these have been weakened with the advent of free schools.

drlodge

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I seen it argued in debates on immigration is the problem that these people come from poor backwards rural communities. The immigration rules mean it is difficult for anybody other than dependents to enter so these communities are perpetuating this problem. The problem being poverty and a lack of education.

I see the problem as lack of assimilation. Immigrants can bring with them differing values, a different culture and behavioural norms. We have our values & culture, they have their values are culture. Multiculturalism is a failed project, I'd argue having a multicultural society is not a good thing as we should have one set of values. Rather a single culture in a multi ethnic society is what we should be aiming for.

drlodge

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think it is practical to somehow extract the churches or other religious organisations from those schools without losing some of the benefits that the VA sector provides.

What are some of these benefits? Funding is very significantly provided by the state so I don't see why Religious/VA schools should be able to prevent my children from going to it or instilling religious doctrine.

robert88

drlodge wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I seen it argued in debates on immigration is the problem that these people come from poor backwards rural communities. The immigration rules mean it is difficult for anybody other than dependents to enter so these communities are perpetuating this problem. The problem being poverty and a lack of education.

I see the problem as lack of assimilation. Immigrants can bring with them differing values, a different culture and behavioural norms. We have our values & culture, they have their values are culture. Multiculturalism is a failed project, I'd argue having a multicultural society is not a good thing as we should have one set of values. Rather a single culture in a multi ethnic society is what we should be aiming for.

No one should be allowed to play bagpipes south of a line. Unless there's a war on when we'll need 'em.

And no Morris Dancing. Anywhere. It is a pagan ritual.

rjsterry

drlodge wrote:

Atheism is not a belief system and no one is legitimising terrorism.

Terrorism is driven by ideology and you cannot ignore the ideology, whether its Islam (Islamic terrorism) or White Supremacy.

Not a single unified system, no. There are various denominations; some more evangelical than others and less tolerant of deviation from their views.

Think we'll have to agree to differ on the relative importance of ideology. The ideology of the French Revolution - solid Enlightenment values - still resulted in The Terror.

rjsterry

drlodge wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I don't think it is practical to somehow extract the churches or other religious organisations from those schools without losing some of the benefits that the VA sector provides.

What are some of these benefits? Funding is very significantly provided by the state so I don't see why Religious/VA schools should be able to prevent my children from going to it or instilling religious doctrine.

If people will pretend to be practising Christians for a few years and butter up the vicar just to get a place at the local CofE primary school, that does suggest there is something to be gained, no?