Brachycephalic dogs

DeVlaeminck
DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,731
edited March 2019 in The cake stop
There's a fair chance I've spelt that incorrectly but is it time more was done to stop the sale and breeding of unhealthy dog breeds. Bulldogs, French Bulldogs, Pugs, Boston Terriers even Boxers all seem to be in the increase and according to The Guardian associated health problems are on the increase.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... dogs-alive

It's not just the flat faced breeds, other examples would be dachshunds whose confirmation must pretty much guarantee back pain even when they avoid more serious spinal issues. GSDs are another breed where the show confirmation would make the dogs physically incapable of performing any working role.

I am a dog lover and I've nothing against dog showing, training or associated hobbies but it just seems time to enforce action because this issue is highlighted from time to time but nothing is ever done.
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Comments

  • crispybug2
    crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    I’m not a dog person, I’ve never owned one apart from having a golden retriever for six months when I was about eight and I really didn’t like it

    However a friend of my wife’s has a bulldog and every time it runs in from the garden it has that really heavy and laboured breathing that you hear from a really fat person
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,606
    oxoman wrote:
    Have to agree with you DV, as a dog owner I personally think it's cruel the way some dogs are bred nowadays. Any breeding that causes health issue's with any animal should be stopped and banned.

    That would be most breeding. Pretty much all the recognised breeds have one or more congenital health problem because of inbreeding. GSD: dodgy hips; Cockermouth Spaniels: heart defects; Labradorite: over-eating; Poodles: prone to diabetes; and so on and so on.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • bianchimoon
    bianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    I blame Crufts, it really isn't that difficult to choose a docile, healthy, faithful breed
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • bianchimoon
    bianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    rjsterry wrote:
    oxoman wrote:
    Have to agree with you DV, as a dog owner I personally think it's cruel the way some dogs are bred nowadays. Any breeding that causes health issue's with any animal should be stopped and banned.

    That would be most breeding. Pretty much all the recognised breeds have one or more congenital health problem because of inbreeding. GSD: dodgy hips; Cockermouth Spaniels: heart defects; Labradorite: over-eating; Poodles: prone to diabetes; and so on and so on.

    Whassa cockermouth spaniel? :D
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • There's healthier breeds but like most mammals there's defects in all to differing degrees. There's attempts by breeders to breed it out.

    The English bulldog has breeders trying to breed out the KC standard and return the breed to its agile, athletic and fighting dog physique it had a hundred or more years ago. It was once a healthy, fighting dog, tall in stature capable of baiting a specially bred bull.

    My dog's breed is border terrier. One of the more healthy breeds but it has shaking puppy syndrome. The breed associations have been working with researchers to develop a genetic test which became live last couple of years. Any found testing positive gets neutered or the breeder doesn't breed from it.

    KC has had systems in place to minimise inbreeding but they're not helping by creating unhealthy and unrealistic breed standards.

    There are some exceptions. The jack Russell breed association resisted creation of a Jr breed standard for many decades. Reason they didn't want it to effect the working character of this game dog. Eventually it became the parsons terrier and a breed standard was written that ensures it will always be a working breed capable of doing its work.

    BTW there are only 3 KC breed standards that allow for the dog to compete with scars. These are all terriers. IIRC Parsons, Norfolk and I think a beddlington terrier.

    This leads to my advice in dog breed choice. Always choose one with two breeding populations, a show breed and a working breed. Generally you'll get a healthy dog by getting the working version.

    Such breeds are Labrador, cocker, springer (all versions), etc.

    Other than that Google breed health. Our breed of choice, border terrier, is considered a healthy pedigree. We have a KC registered, neutered female that's just over a year old. What an amazing breed! But I'm not biased, at all!!!!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,606
    edited February 2019
    rjsterry wrote:
    oxoman wrote:
    Have to agree with you DV, as a dog owner I personally think it's cruel the way some dogs are bred nowadays. Any breeding that causes health issue's with any animal should be stopped and banned.

    That would be most breeding. Pretty much all the recognised breeds have one or more congenital health problem because of inbreeding. GSD: dodgy hips; Cockermouth Spaniels: heart defects; Labradorite: over-eating; Poodles: prone to diabetes; and so on and so on.

    Whassa cockermouth spaniel? :D

    Damned auto correct! Weird that my phone's dictionary contains Labradorite, but not Labrador.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • To mirror the sentiment of the OP I would like to ask why the KC hasn't been prosecuted for animal cruelty on light of the fact their breed standards are creating unhealthy breeds? Put simply if the KC got prosecuted I bet they'd change all breed standards pretty much overnight.

    One last point. Cross breeds like the cockapoo are mongrels. Stop trying to breedify them or soften the image by giving them a name or calling them cross breeds. They're a mix of two pedigree breeds so they're a mongrel in my book.

    That's not too say there's anything necessarily wrong with that. Just that creating a fake breed or bigging up their image is only going to create a fashion / trend. Once it's a fashion or trend you get puppy farmers pumping out sick animals. That then becomes very wrong.
  • Sorry but one more point. Huskys are working dogs. If you've not got the means to take them out sledging IMHO you have no place owning them.

    I've seen two panting for their lives one late winter when the weather turned from snow and cold to heat and snow in less than a few days. One was lying down on a patch of compacted snow to cool down. They really were struggling and it wasn't even summer.

    Inappropriate dogs for the UK IMHO so don't get one.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Cross breeds like the cockapoo are mongrels. Stop trying to breedify them or soften the image by giving them a name or calling them cross breeds. They're a mix of two pedigree breeds so they're a mongrel in my book.
    Errr... exactly which breeds is it that weren't created by cross-breeding? Otherwise what we'd all have is wolves on leads.

    But needless to say, if you haven't got a Collie, I'm not sure you've really got a dog at all ;-)
  • I think the ability to send ones comments, suggestions and opinions to this entertaining and informative BIKE forum is a great idea .However how so many can submit so many comments and opinions about a subject so far removed from our
    love of cycling to discuss the various and varied ailments of our canine friends seems to be a complete waste of space .
    Perhaps the numerous T.V programmes about the amazing work performed by such talented vets is what the dog lovers
    Should tune in to and and follow the spirit of Bikeradar .
  • bompington wrote:
    Cross breeds like the cockapoo are mongrels. Stop trying to breedify them or soften the image by giving them a name or calling them cross breeds. They're a mix of two pedigree breeds so they're a mongrel in my book.
    Errr... exactly which breeds is it that weren't created by cross-breeding? Otherwise what we'd all have is wolves on leads.

    But needless to say, if you haven't got a Collie, I'm not sure you've really got a dog at all ;-)
    Breeds are developed for creating a standard. Right now cross breeds are just random mixtures. IF the cockapoo breeders got together and created a uniformity to the cockapoo (could have a toy, standard and giant variety of course) then I would argue for recognition of it as a breed.

    Right now you have a big variety on size, character and physical appearance. It's a mongrel because it's a wild, wild west of breeding with only the breeds mated fixed.

    YMMV but it's a difference right there.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,731
    I think the Kennel Club will claim to be trying to move some breeds towards more healthy interpretations of breed standards but it's slow going if it's going at all.

    The problem is the show fraternity are wedded to their vision of what their breed should look like. They mostly have years of breeding towards that goal and of course anyone who thinks the accepted ideal is wrong will either not own that breed it will likely not show because they'd not place or at least would never be successful at shows and get to judge themselves. In short it's a vicious circle that requires breaking from outside as those inside the circle are only there by buying into the existing phenotype.

    The KC will also be afraid of breed clubs breaking away - in a way the KC is the governing body by consent - for me that is a price worth paying and longer term might make a kC registration an actual indicator of a more healthy dog which could only help them as an organisation.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Robots are the way forward. Any shape, personality you want. No sh1t!
  • We have a Cretan Hound, rescued by the wife at great expense four years ago from...Crete. I reckon he must be one of the rarest breeds in the UK. We’ve tried to track down other owners but we’ve had no luck. He’s an amazing beast, just like his history.
  • I think you're right about the show community. Just looking at gundog breeds which have different breeding populations. The show breed is a ridiculous mass of fur that would just get matted on a shoot. They're also not as athletic in their gait and behaviour. Different sizes too. It's like a different breed, one still with its ability to do the job and one not fit for intended purpose. I'm thinking of cocker spaniels here. There's quite a few near me (dog walk canal route) and I see examples of both breeding populations. All nice dogs but there's something special in a good looking gun dog running around into all the scents. Compared to a show bred cocker that's shuffling around like a fat lapdog (even if it's not actually unhealthy or unfit).

    I know a Labrador breeder who went for good gundog stock. Result of going to a good stud dog (and a well bred female) was a natural gundog with the full set of instincts that make a very good dog it's hardwired in to the dog. He's also what the young street kids call "hench"! She gets shooters offering her silly money for it. It is good to see such a dog when you compare it with the show Labrador dogs. They're bigger and not as athletic. Still big and bouncy but there's a clear difference.

    These gundogs and terriers that are still bred as show dogs or field / gun dogs show the good and bad in breeding.

    If you want a gundog breed with pedigree then look for FTCh in front of the ancestors not ShCh. You'll probably get a very active and healthy dog that's just what the breed should be. If you can't handle that then you should look to another breed because IMHO there should only be the field champion breeding pool because that's what the dog was bred for.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    We have a Cretan Hound, rescued by the wife at great expense four years ago from...Crete. I reckon he must be one of the rarest breeds in the UK. We’ve tried to track down other owners but we’ve had no luck. He’s an amazing beast, just like his history.

    Chapeau! My sister in law rescued a Peloponnesian Sheepdog years ago. Just a puppy when they adopted it.

    Anyway, greatdivide, I guess your Cretan Hound will have an EU passport long after you will.
  • Robert88 wrote:
    We have a Cretan Hound, rescued by the wife at great expense four years ago from...Crete. I reckon he must be one of the rarest breeds in the UK. We’ve tried to track down other owners but we’ve had no luck. He’s an amazing beast, just like his history.

    Chapeau! My sister in law rescued a Peloponnesian Sheepdog years ago. Just a puppy when they adopted it.

    Anyway, greatdivide, I guess your Cretan Hound will have an EU passport long after you will.

    Cheers Robert88. It was all my wife’s work. He arrived with his pal who looks like a collie / spaniel cross. The two of them had been roaming the wee village that we always visit and she just decided one night that she’d rescue them. Heroic effort.

    Never thought about their EU passports! The lucky b@stards!!!
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    A friend of mine has a rescue Staffy and it struggles a bit, poor thing. We've had people run out of shops when we walk past thinking we were walking a pig before because he basically oinks. He feels very left out when people come over to pet my stunning (not biased ;) ) pedigree fox red lab. Kids shy away from it which is sad as he's actually quite lovely, my dog is also scared of him because he misinterprets the oinking for growling.

    I can't understand why you wouldn't get a working Lab over a show lab but then I'm not into crufts, I don't work mine but he's got an amazing temperament and is a great traildog/forestry dog. Very athletic, quite low slung but very strong
  • angry_bird
    angry_bird Posts: 3,786
    Robert88 wrote:
    We have a Cretan Hound, rescued by the wife at great expense four years ago from...Crete. I reckon he must be one of the rarest breeds in the UK. We’ve tried to track down other owners but we’ve had no luck. He’s an amazing beast, just like his history.

    Chapeau! My sister in law rescued a Peloponnesian Sheepdog years ago. Just a puppy when they adopted it.

    Anyway, greatdivide, I guess your Cretan Hound will have an EU passport long after you will.

    I don't understand adopting dogs from abroad, there's plenty of dogs in the UK in need of homes, and removes the risk of bringing a non-endemic disease into the country... just seems daft.
  • Angry Bird wrote:
    Robert88 wrote:
    We have a Cretan Hound, rescued by the wife at great expense four years ago from...Crete. I reckon he must be one of the rarest breeds in the UK. We’ve tried to track down other owners but we’ve had no luck. He’s an amazing beast, just like his history.

    Chapeau! My sister in law rescued a Peloponnesian Sheepdog years ago. Just a puppy when they adopted it.

    Anyway, greatdivide, I guess your Cretan Hound will have an EU passport long after you will.

    I don't understand adopting dogs from abroad, there's plenty of dogs in the UK in need of homes, and removes the risk of bringing a non-endemic disease into the country... just seems daft.

    Who says we haven’t adopted dogs from the UK before? All dogs that are brought into the UK from the EU require vaccinations and 21 days quarantine, plus the previously mention EU pet passport with said vaccinations stamped, otherwise they won’t get into the country.
  • angry_bird
    angry_bird Posts: 3,786
    Angry Bird wrote:
    Robert88 wrote:
    We have a Cretan Hound, rescued by the wife at great expense four years ago from...Crete. I reckon he must be one of the rarest breeds in the UK. We’ve tried to track down other owners but we’ve had no luck. He’s an amazing beast, just like his history.

    Chapeau! My sister in law rescued a Peloponnesian Sheepdog years ago. Just a puppy when they adopted it.

    Anyway, greatdivide, I guess your Cretan Hound will have an EU passport long after you will.

    I don't understand adopting dogs from abroad, there's plenty of dogs in the UK in need of homes, and removes the risk of bringing a non-endemic disease into the country... just seems daft.

    Who says we haven’t adopted dogs from the UK before? All dogs that are brought into the UK from the EU require vaccinations and 21 days quarantine, plus the previously mention EU pet passport with said vaccinations stamped, otherwise they won’t get into the country.

    Yes, but there are very real concerns about the enforcement of such measures and fraudulent activity. Plenty of money for people to make revoking dogs from other countries to the UK... regardless of whatever paperwork they do or do not have, it still doesn’t mean they aren’t carrying non-endemic disease into the country... and we have a plentiful supply of dogs in need of homes in the UK already.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,441
    Waltdinghy wrote:
    I think the ability to send ones comments, suggestions and opinions to this entertaining and informative BIKE forum is a great idea .However how so many can submit so many comments and opinions about a subject so far removed from our
    love of cycling to discuss the various and varied ailments of our canine friends seems to be a complete waste of space .
    Perhaps the numerous T.V programmes about the amazing work performed by such talented vets is what the dog lovers
    Should tune in to and and follow the spirit of Bikeradar .

    You haven't quite grasped the concept of the off topic sections of this forum have you? The description in the index page for Cake Stop is "The place for more serious off topic questions, light hearted banter and friendly chat." i.e. this is the area for non bike related stuff. If you want to discuss bikes and cycling just go to one of the other sub-sections, it's not rocket science.
  • Angry Bird wrote:
    Angry Bird wrote:
    Robert88 wrote:
    We have a Cretan Hound, rescued by the wife at great expense four years ago from...Crete. I reckon he must be one of the rarest breeds in the UK. We’ve tried to track down other owners but we’ve had no luck. He’s an amazing beast, just like his history.

    Chapeau! My sister in law rescued a Peloponnesian Sheepdog years ago. Just a puppy when they adopted it.

    Anyway, greatdivide, I guess your Cretan Hound will have an EU passport long after you will.

    I don't understand adopting dogs from abroad, there's plenty of dogs in the UK in need of homes, and removes the risk of bringing a non-endemic disease into the country... just seems daft.

    Who says we haven’t adopted dogs from the UK before? All dogs that are brought into the UK from the EU require vaccinations and 21 days quarantine, plus the previously mention EU pet passport with said vaccinations stamped, otherwise they won’t get into the country.

    Yes, but there are very real concerns about the enforcement of such measures and fraudulent activity. Plenty of money for people to make revoking dogs from other countries to the UK... regardless of whatever paperwork they do or do not have, it still doesn’t mean they aren’t carrying non-endemic disease into the country... and we have a plentiful supply of dogs in need of homes in the UK already.

    There is a serious issue of the import of foreign diseases from import of foreign animals as well as UK animals going overseas and bringing them back. Was an article recently in the veterinary times. Sadly can't find the article online, but some similar ones are here.

    The UK rules on quarantine / import export aren't bad but can't do everything, especially if your animal doesn't show symptoms.

    https://www.vettimes.co.uk/news/screen- ... ts-warned/

    https://inews.co.uk/news/rescue-dog-vet ... se-import/

    https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaigns-an ... vets-warn/
  • Sorry but one more point. Huskys are working dogs. If you've not got the means to take them out sledging IMHO you have no place owning them.

    I've seen two panting for their lives one late winter when the weather turned from snow and cold to heat and snow in less than a few days. One was lying down on a patch of compacted snow to cool down. They really were struggling and it wasn't even summer.

    Inappropriate dogs for the UK IMHO so don't get one.
    Do they not have summer in Alaska.
    should of used giantorangecannon
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    Sorry but one more point. Huskys are working dogs. If you've not got the means to take them out sledging IMHO you have no place owning them.

    I've seen two panting for their lives one late winter when the weather turned from snow and cold to heat and snow in less than a few days. One was lying down on a patch of compacted snow to cool down. They really were struggling and it wasn't even summer.

    Inappropriate dogs for the UK IMHO so don't get one.
    Do they not have summer in Alaska[?]

    They do. However, they'll be "lucky" to see low 20s, depending where they are.
    Ben

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  • There's a lass who walks a few dogs where I do I sometimes meet them on the field. She has a rather old and overweight staffie that she calls "the pig". Could it be the same dog?
  • Ben6899 wrote:
    Sorry but one more point. Huskys are working dogs. If you've not got the means to take them out sledging IMHO you have no place owning them.

    I've seen two panting for their lives one late winter when the weather turned from snow and cold to heat and snow in less than a few days. One was lying down on a patch of compacted snow to cool down. They really were struggling and it wasn't even summer.

    Inappropriate dogs for the UK IMHO so don't get one.
    Do they not have summer in Alaska[?]

    They do. However, they'll be "lucky" to see low 20s, depending where they are.
    My point was that they're a serious working dog not a pet in the traditional sense. They're equipped to work hard at low temperatures. A strong instinct. Add in the fact they're bred for a region that doesn't go from a little below zero to mid 30s like the UK can go to. When these dogs are dying in the UK at 36 degrees Celsius they're thriving at high teens possibly low 20s in a warm summer in alaska or siberia.

    Round here you see them being walked around the streets of town. I'm possibly being very unkind but the people I see with these dogs tend to be overweight and not fit enough to do even the 10k steps often quoted as the recommended minimum level of daily exercise. So not only are the dogs living outside of the climate they're bred for they're also getting nowhere near enough exercise.
  • step83
    step83 Posts: 4,170
    We have a mini English bull Terrior, so thankfully none of the breathing issues just a little over crowding teeth wise which was sorted early on.

    I think KC have realised the direction the breeds were going was proving too unhealthy (taken them long enough) for example mine the "standard" was a very triangular head pointy as possible, which has caused lots of issues with eyes and teeth plus the want for extreme muscle led to joint issues.

    We have a friend who has a Pug and a Chug (Chihuahua pug cross) OK ours is a bit larger than both but, we can let them go off an play an the Pug an Chug, you can always hear them breathing heavily even taking them for walks.

    Also reminds me, Pugs cant mate with each other due to how they have been bred, so the breeds been pushed down a route were without human intervention it would literally be extinct in the next 20 years at most.

    I'm sure somewhere I've seen a thing comparing how breeds looked say 100 years ago compared to now an none of them looked like what we have today, its all selective breeding rubbish.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Ben6899 wrote:
    Sorry but one more point. Huskys are working dogs. If you've not got the means to take them out sledging IMHO you have no place owning them.

    I've seen two panting for their lives one late winter when the weather turned from snow and cold to heat and snow in less than a few days. One was lying down on a patch of compacted snow to cool down. They really were struggling and it wasn't even summer.

    Inappropriate dogs for the UK IMHO so don't get one.
    Do they not have summer in Alaska[?]

    They do. However, they'll be "lucky" to see low 20s, depending where they are.
    My point was that they're a serious working dog not a pet in the traditional sense. They're equipped to work hard at low temperatures. A strong instinct. Add in the fact they're bred for a region that doesn't go from a little below zero to mid 30s like the UK can go to. When these dogs are dying in the UK at 36 degrees Celsius they're thriving at high teens possibly low 20s in a warm summer in alaska or siberia.

    Round here you see them being walked around the streets of town. I'm possibly being very unkind but the people I see with these dogs tend to be overweight and not fit enough to do even the 10k steps often quoted as the recommended minimum level of daily exercise. So not only are the dogs living outside of the climate they're bred for they're also getting nowhere near enough exercise.
    Yep.
    Jerry (see profile pic) was bitten quite badly by a husky, which belonged to a fat woman who would take it for a slow half mile walk most days.
    It was tethered to a car bumper and actually broke its lead when it saw Jerry (a real softie) walk by 30m away, and gave him a bite that needed quite a few stitches.

    On the other hand, go to the sled dog centre in the Cairngorms to see happy and fulfilled huskies doing like they're supposed to.

    But pets? No.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    When cycling in the Pyrennees I have seen some remarkable dogs, some definitely Pyrenean Mountain Dogs, others more wolf-like. They love wandering around the mountain top in the horrible weather doing their own thing. Not a good domestic pet. Great to see them in their environment even when they stand in the road and won't get out of the way. The trick is know you have to go round them.