Emiliano Sala

Pross

It looks like football is hitting a new low with Nantes threatening to sue Cardiff over non-payment of the transfer fee for Sala. How can two clubs that have been having 'tributes' to the player possibly think it is a good idea to argue over the transfer fee when his father is waiting to see if his body can be recovered from the wreckage? I've hated the big business side of top level football for years but have taken the view that the fans accept it by continuing to throw their money at the sport and whilst I thought there would eventually be a wrangle over finances I really did expect such a public spat and such a complete lack of respect and empathy for the families of the deceased.

bonk_king

Just heard it on radio 5 live. I was absolutely gobsmacked. What is this world coming to.

verylonglegs

Sadly I'm not surprised, in fact it is entirely appropriate for the world of football these days. Blatter and FIFA, the World Cup in Qatar, UEFA issuing a bigger fine to a team taking to the pitch too late for the second half than fines they dish out for racism, agents fees...that's the stuff off the top of my head, could wear my keyboard out listing it all. So this brewing row over money, it is perfect for the grubby little world of professional football as it currently stands.

surrey_commuter

It will be interesting to know why Cardiff are refusing to pay. It would suggest that they did not have him insured.

For some perspective in their last accounts Cardiff owed over £100m and lost £25m. I imagine Nantes financials will be similar to a middling Championship club.

That said two people are dead and the clubs should be acting with dignity.

TheBigBean

Surrey Commuter wrote:

It will be interesting to know why Cardiff are refusing to pay. It would suggest that they did not have him insured.

For some perspective in their last accounts Cardiff owed over £100m and lost £25m. I imagine Nantes financials will be similar to a middling Championship club.

That said two people are dead and the clubs should be acting with dignity.

The Guardian says that he was insured with Cardiff, but that they would like to wait until the investigation has finished before paying. I read that to mean they want to make sure the insurance pays out.

Meanwhile he is not insured with Nantes and they are probably worried about not being paid.

Pross

Surrey Commuter wrote:

It will be interesting to know why Cardiff are refusing to pay. It would suggest that they did not have him insured.

For some perspective in their last accounts Cardiff owed over £100m and lost £25m. I imagine Nantes financials will be similar to a middling Championship club.

That said two people are dead and the clubs should be acting with dignity.

Exactly, no-one outside the club should even be aware there's a dispute and the clubs themselves could have at least waited until the bodies are recovered and buried. As well as being callous it comes across as hypocritical after both clubs had their public acts of mourning / remembrance, it shows that they see their players as just commodities rather than human beings.

tailwindhome

Based on nothing more than what's written on this thread I'm blaming Cardiff.

If the transfer was completed they must pay the transfer fee.
Extraordinary that they wouldn't.

Pross

TailWindHome wrote:

Based on nothing more than what's written on this thread I'm blaming Cardiff.

If the transfer was completed they must pay the transfer fee.
Extraordinary that they wouldn't.

It's sort of irrelevant who is at fault though. They're having a spat over a dead person not who is paying for a bit of damage after a car crash.

DeVlaeminck

I read on a pilots forum (it was linked from a football forum, I don't routinely scan pilot's forums) some debate about whether the plane would have been licensed for commercial flying at night over the sea. There was some discussion about whether this might invalidate any insurance.

Personally if I were Nantes I'd want the money as agreed. It's OK to say they should show respect but it's a lot of money and they may need it to pay wages etc etc. Unless Cardiff have good reason to withhold payment they are the ones at fault here and any disrespect towards the family has been caused by them.

gethinceri

He may not be dead.

surrey_commuter

Gethinceri wrote:

He may not be dead.

This is very true and will delay any insurance payout.

Cardiff owe Nantes money and have failed to pay on time leading to a legal demand for what they are owed. I assume Cardiff made it public.

surrey_commuter

Pross wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Based on nothing more than what's written on this thread I'm blaming Cardiff.

If the transfer was completed they must pay the transfer fee.
Extraordinary that they wouldn't.

It's sort of irrelevant who is at fault though. They're having a spat over a dead person not who is paying for a bit of damage after a car crash.

But they aren’t having a spat over a dead person.

Business A bought an asset from Business B and have failed to pay on time. Business A is known to be in financial difficulties. In any line of business B would lawyer up.

imposter2.0

Gethinceri wrote:

He may not be dead.

This, unfortunately. Until he is either identified (if the recovered body is his) or declared dead via other procedures then any insurance is unlikely to pay out.

Either way, he was a Cardiff player when he went missing, so you can understand where Nantes are coming from, even if the timing is not ideal..

surrey_commuter

Imposter wrote:

Gethinceri wrote:

He may not be dead.

This, unfortunately. Until he is either identified (if the recovered body is his) or declared dead via other procedures then any insurance is unlikely to pay out.

Either way, he was a Cardiff player when he went missing, so you can understand where Nantes are coming from, even if the timing is not ideal..

What I read was that Cardiff owed the money within 7 days so it is them who set the ball rolling by not paying. Probably safe to assume Cardiff publicised it.

DeVlaeminck

A body has been recovered and Sala's family informed, of course they may have been informed it's not Emiliano Sala. Some seem to be speculating that the agent booked the plane and the agent was paid by Nantes - therefore if insurance doesn't pay out because of some issue around the use of that plane Cardiff may be considering whether Nantes may have failed to "deliver" the asset to them properly and be witholding payment on that basis.

Again just speculation amongst Cardiff fans could be complete BS

Pross

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I read on a pilots forum (it was linked from a football forum, I don't routinely scan pilot's forums) some debate about whether the plane would have been licensed for commercial flying at night over the sea. There was some discussion about whether this might invalidate any insurance.

Personally if I were Nantes I'd want the money as agreed. It's OK to say they should show respect but it's a lot of money and they may need it to pay wages etc etc. Unless Cardiff have good reason to withhold payment they are the ones at fault here and any disrespect towards the family has been caused by them.

There seems to be an assumption that I think Cardiff are the innocent party here. I don't, I know nothing about the arrangement and care even less. I just think it's unseemly for two businesses to be publicly arguing over who is going to pay for a 'broken asset' that was being sold while totally ignoring the impact their behaviour may be having on others. If they really needed to argue over it they should be doing it in private. I'm also not buying that Nantes are that desperate for money to pay wages, had they not sold Sala they wouldn't have had the money coming in and would still have had his (presumably high) wages to pay.

On the point regarding the plane, I heard someone say when this first happened that you can't run a commercial flight over water in a single engined plane but don't know if that's true. It's also unclear who arranged the flight so that may have some bearing on what is going on but as I say, I really don't care who is to blame - both clubs are looking like they don't give a toss about a young man who is presumably dead despite their initial public displays of grief. The only way I can see them making themselves look worse is if Warnock decides he's going to comment on the matter.

mrb123

My understanding is that Nantes will have to pay out a fair chunk of the transfer fee to one of his previous clubs, so one can understand them expecting to be paid any sums that are now due under the contract.

surrey_commuter

Pross wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I read on a pilots forum (it was linked from a football forum, I don't routinely scan pilot's forums) some debate about whether the plane would have been licensed for commercial flying at night over the sea. There was some discussion about whether this might invalidate any insurance.

Personally if I were Nantes I'd want the money as agreed. It's OK to say they should show respect but it's a lot of money and they may need it to pay wages etc etc. Unless Cardiff have good reason to withhold payment they are the ones at fault here and any disrespect towards the family has been caused by them.

There seems to be an assumption that I think Cardiff are the innocent party here. I don't, I know nothing about the arrangement and care even less. I just think it's unseemly for two businesses to be publicly arguing over who is going to pay for a 'broken asset' that was being sold while totally ignoring the impact their behaviour may be having on others. If they really needed to argue over it they should be doing it in private. I'm also not buying that Nantes are that desperate for money to pay wages, had they not sold Sala they wouldn't have had the money coming in and would still have had his (presumably high) wages to pay.

On the point regarding the plane, I heard someone say when this first happened that you can't run a commercial flight over water in a single engined plane but don't know if that's true. It's also unclear who arranged the flight so that may have some bearing on what is going on but as I say, I really don't care who is to blame - both clubs are looking like they don't give a toss about a young man who is presumably dead despite their initial public displays of grief. The only way I can see them making themselves look worse is if Warnock decides he's going to comment on the matter.

I will reiterate that I feel this could have been done with more diginity.

But you do not know Nantes financial situation, it is very likely they sold Sala because of financial pressure. The Telegraph is saying that Cardiff are refusing to pay until they find out who is responsible for hiring the plane/pilot as they feel there is liability there.

So from Nantes point of view they sold their best player for £15m of which £5m was due within 7 days. Two days later the player died and Cardiff refused to pay. What do you think a reasonable reaction would be? how large an unsecured loan would you be willing to offer Cardiff FC and for how long. Reports are saying Nantes did not receive the money so sent an email reminder, when that was ignored they sent a legal letter. They did not make it public so I do not see they have done a lot wrong.

imposter2.0

Also, as mentioned earlier, some of the talk over on pprune on whether the pilot was actually licenced to carry fare-paying/commercial passengers could mean another level of litigation on top of the existing 'who owes what' debate.

orraloon

Humanity and emotions sink in a sea of moneyball business asset transaction complexity.

Pross

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Pross wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I read on a pilots forum (it was linked from a football forum, I don't routinely scan pilot's forums) some debate about whether the plane would have been licensed for commercial flying at night over the sea. There was some discussion about whether this might invalidate any insurance.

Personally if I were Nantes I'd want the money as agreed. It's OK to say they should show respect but it's a lot of money and they may need it to pay wages etc etc. Unless Cardiff have good reason to withhold payment they are the ones at fault here and any disrespect towards the family has been caused by them.

There seems to be an assumption that I think Cardiff are the innocent party here. I don't, I know nothing about the arrangement and care even less. I just think it's unseemly for two businesses to be publicly arguing over who is going to pay for a 'broken asset' that was being sold while totally ignoring the impact their behaviour may be having on others. If they really needed to argue over it they should be doing it in private. I'm also not buying that Nantes are that desperate for money to pay wages, had they not sold Sala they wouldn't have had the money coming in and would still have had his (presumably high) wages to pay.

On the point regarding the plane, I heard someone say when this first happened that you can't run a commercial flight over water in a single engined plane but don't know if that's true. It's also unclear who arranged the flight so that may have some bearing on what is going on but as I say, I really don't care who is to blame - both clubs are looking like they don't give a toss about a young man who is presumably dead despite their initial public displays of grief. The only way I can see them making themselves look worse is if Warnock decides he's going to comment on the matter.

I will reiterate that I feel this could have been done with more diginity.

But you do not know Nantes financial situation, it is very likely they sold Sala because of financial pressure. The Telegraph is saying that Cardiff are refusing to pay until they find out who is responsible for hiring the plane/pilot as they feel there is liability there.

So from Nantes point of view they sold their best player for £15m of which £5m was due within 7 days. Two days later the player died and Cardiff refused to pay. What do you think a reasonable reaction would be? how large an unsecured loan would you be willing to offer Cardiff FC and for how long. Reports are saying Nantes did not receive the money so sent an email reminder, when that was ignored they sent a legal letter. They did not make it public so I do not see they have done a lot wrong.

I don't disagree with you although if looking at it purely in business terms if it was Nantes who were responsible for arranging his travel and they put him on a flight that wasn't fit for purpose I could also understand the payment being withheld. I'm not sure why you are so certain that no-one at Nantes leaked the information though, it seems more likely to have come from the disgruntled party than the one reneging on a deal surely? That said I wouldn't sell anything to Vincent Tang without having the cash in my hand.

The issue it highlights yet again is the whole model of football as a business where clubs are carrying massive debts and yet can continue forking out millions on transfer signings. The more they seem to earn from TV deals, the more debt they seem to end up with. I'm no business expert so maybe the same is true of all big businesses but how many clubs would survive their creditors calling in the debts?

joe2008

Pross wrote:

I don't disagree with you although if looking at it purely in business terms if it was Nantes who were responsible for arranging his travel and they put him on a flight that wasn't fit for purpose I could also understand the payment being withheld. I'm not sure why you are so certain that no-one at Nantes leaked the information though, it seems more likely to have come from the disgruntled party than the one reneging on a deal surely? That said I wouldn't sell anything to Vincent Tang without having the cash in my hand.

The issue it highlights yet again is the whole model of football as a business where clubs are carrying massive debts and yet can continue forking out millions on transfer signings. The more they seem to earn from TV deals, the more debt they seem to end up with. I'm no business expert so maybe the same is true of all big businesses but how many clubs would survive their creditors calling in the debts?

His travel was arranged by Football agent Willie McKay who is the father of Cardiff player Jack McKay:

Friday, 18 January

7:43pm - Jack McKay:"My dad has told me that you are going home tomorrow. He could organise a plane to take you direct to Nantes and to come back on Monday, at a time that suits you, so you can get to training on Tuesday."

7:51pm-Emiliano Sala: "Ah that is great. I was just in the middle of checking if there are some flights to get to Nantes tomorrow."

7:56pm-McKay: "He said he could organise a plane that would go direct to Nantes."

7:56pm- Sala: "How much will it cost?"

7:56pm-McKay: "Nothing. He said if you help me to score goals it's nothing."

7:59pm-Sala: "Hahaha with pleasure."

8:00pm- Sala: "We are going to score lots of goals.

8:01pm - Sala: "I want to leave tomorrow for Nantes at around 11am and come back on Monday night around 9pm to Cardiff if that is possible."

8:05pm -McKay:"Good. I'll send a message when that's sorted."

Sunday, 20 January

5:00pm - McKay: "Hi there is it possible you could come back at seven in the evening on Monday night? Just because the pilot has to get home in the north after he gets to Cardiff."

5:01pm - Sala:"Hi, Half past seven would be possible."

5:03pm - McKay:"Yes that's good."

5:05pm -Sala: "[PICTURE OF LUGGAGE] Can you ask if I can bring this on the plane?"

5:06pm -McKay: "Good yeah."

5:07pm - Sala:"But is that going to be OK for the plane?"

McKay: "Yes there is space on the plane for your luggage."

5:12pm - Sala: "OK."

Monday, 21 January

4:16pm - McKay: "I'm going to call in a moment."

4.23pm -McKay: "He said that it is the same company."

4.27pm - Sala:"OK thanks."

DeVlaeminck

Yes and from what I've read Willie McKay was paid by Nantes to find a club who would buy Sala. So Cardiff may feel that he was acting in a paid capacity for Nantes and so Nantes are responsible for any problem which may arise with getting an insurance payout.

If that is the case I don't know but I think I'd at least want to take legal advice before forking out the first £5m. At the same time if I were Nantes I'd be a bit twitchy about possibly having effectively lost a £15m asset - especially as his previous club would likely be looking for their cut of the transfer.

surrey_commuter

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Yes and from what I've read Willie McKay was paid by Nantes to find a club who would buy Sala. So Cardiff may feel that he was acting in a paid capacity for Nantes and so Nantes are responsible for any problem which may arise with getting an insurance payout.

If that is the case I don't know but I think I'd at least want to take legal advice before forking out the first £5m. At the same time if I were Nantes I'd be a bit twitchy about possibly having effectively lost a £15m asset - especially as his previous club would likely be looking for their cut of the transfer.

Hopefully one of the good things that come out of this is to lift a lid on what agents do.

I guess there is a chance that Nantes were paying all the costs associated with the transfer. Mckay may well have offered him a free flight, billed Nantes for £5k plane hire then hired an unqualified Lincolnshire plumber in a deathtrap for £1k.

gethinceri

I think that last sentence may cause some interest.

rick_chasey

Pross wrote:

It looks like football is hitting a new low with Nantes threatening to sue Cardiff over non-payment of the transfer fee for Sala. How can two clubs that have been having 'tributes' to the player possibly think it is a good idea to argue over the transfer fee when his father is waiting to see if his body can be recovered from the wreckage? I've hated the big business side of top level football for years but have taken the view that the fans accept it by continuing to throw their money at the sport and whilst I thought there would eventually be a wrangle over finances I really did expect such a public spat and such a complete lack of respect and empathy for the families of the deceased.

Would suggest not getting into insurance as a profession if that’s how ya feel.

Pross

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pross wrote:

It looks like football is hitting a new low with Nantes threatening to sue Cardiff over non-payment of the transfer fee for Sala. How can two clubs that have been having 'tributes' to the player possibly think it is a good idea to argue over the transfer fee when his father is waiting to see if his body can be recovered from the wreckage? I've hated the big business side of top level football for years but have taken the view that the fans accept it by continuing to throw their money at the sport and whilst I thought there would eventually be a wrangle over finances I really did expect such a public spat and such a complete lack of respect and empathy for the families of the deceased.

Would suggest not getting into insurance as a profession if that’s how ya feel.

I have absolutely no intention to!

awavey

Pross wrote:

The issue it highlights yet again is the whole model of football as a business where clubs are carrying massive debts and yet can continue forking out millions on transfer signings. The more they seem to earn from TV deals, the more debt they seem to end up with. I'm no business expert so maybe the same is true of all big businesses but how many clubs would survive their creditors calling in the debts?

I cant find the link now but I thought someone had done that analysis only in the last couple of years and it was basically only a handfull of clubs in the premier league, which seems crazy when you think about the amount of cash in it, and then wasnt even the ones you might automatically have thought of. It was only down in the lower leagues with half of league 1, most of league 2 were clubs on sound financial footing.

crispybug2

Just confirmed on the BBC ticker that the body recovered from the crashed plane is that of Emiliano Sala

ugo.santalucia

It's business... I am sure nantes FC need to make sure their accounts are in order.

As for the all thing... I don't understand how a millionaire can have such poor judgement. If I had the luxury to travel with money being no object, I would certainly not hire a piper plane.
There is an airport in Nantes and you can fly with Air France or direct to Bristol with Easyjet, among other options. I really don't understand what possessed him to jump on a piper

crispybug2

We all make errors of judgment, big and small, and in 99.999999% of these cases no harm whatsoever will come to us, the time we can be absolutely sure of any of judgments is through the prism of hindsight!