LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!
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You haven't answered my question. You go first.rick_chasey said:
Either it hurts the poor or it doesn’t matter, which is it?Stevo_666 said:
We need to ban all cars and head straight for Ricktopia then. Do you really think that charging a section of the population £12.50 a day to drive in greater London is going to make all the difference?rick_chasey said:They could replace the ulez tax with an additional “killing people with pollution” tax?
Sounds like you have swallowed the tfl narrative hook, line and sinker."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I’m still trying to compute how a swing of 6.7% away from the incumbent Party is being spun as some sort of major defeat for Labour and protest against the ULEZ.
Does anyone know how many seats Labour would gain with a 6.7% swing from the Tories to them nationwide?0 -
Ah, these extra million homes are going to be created by relaxing planning rules to allow shops to be converted and to do loft conversions/ extensions. Not sure how making it easier to extend an existing house will allow a new house to be built. They’re going to magic up more space in cities so they don’t have to build in the hallowed green belt.0
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ULEZ won Tories their first seat on the local council here in living memory last month.Pross said:I’m still trying to compute how a swing of 6.7% away from the incumbent Party is being spun as some sort of major defeat for Labour and protest against the ULEZ.
Does anyone know how many seats Labour would gain with a 6.7% swing from the Tories to them nationwide?
It is a big deal at a local level.0 -
Yeah I already know people who are changing their cars because their current ones are not economical, and they live in Fulham, so not likely to be hard up.Stevo_666 said:
You haven't answered my question. You go first.rick_chasey said:
Either it hurts the poor or it doesn’t matter, which is it?Stevo_666 said:
We need to ban all cars and head straight for Ricktopia then. Do you really think that charging a section of the population £12.50 a day to drive in greater London is going to make all the difference?rick_chasey said:They could replace the ulez tax with an additional “killing people with pollution” tax?
Sounds like you have swallowed the tfl narrative hook, line and sinker.0 -
Anti ULEZ lot are always very weak on the pollution argument.
There is no real comeback for that.0 -
It is more tricky in outer London - if you drive 10 minutes to leave Greater London each day should you pay the same as someone who drives around polluting the built up areas all day?rick_chasey said:Anti ULEZ lot are always very weak on the pollution argument.
There is no real comeback for that.
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I've got no particular skin in this game as "My Man" won the Selby by-election and I wouldn't go near London in a car without a gun to my head. So...Pross said:I’m still trying to compute how a swing of 6.7% away from the incumbent Party is being spun as some sort of major defeat for Labour and protest against the ULEZ.
AFAIK, the ULEZ issue was very significant in Uxbridge to the extent that some voters who might otherwise have ditched the Tories for the standard reason (incompetence, corruption etc.) stayed with them. This meant the swing to Labour was circa 10% lower than in the other two by-elections, and in the world of relative results, a smaller swing to Labour than expected <=> defeat, in the way that Theresa May "lost" the 2017 GE by winning fewer seats than the Tories expected. Except Tories didn't win the 2017 GE, of course.
The real underlying issue is that political pundits, both amateur and pro, have too much time on their hands, and too much access to incomplete information.
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It's the driving that matters, no? If your care is spitting out emissions on the road I don't think it matters which way your car is moving.kingstongraham said:
It is more tricky in outer London - if you drive 10 minutes to leave Greater London each day should you pay the same as someone who drives around polluting the built up areas all day?rick_chasey said:Anti ULEZ lot are always very weak on the pollution argument.
There is no real comeback for that.0 -
I think it's the all day v 10 minutes bit that is key.0
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I think the point is that you're only in the ULEZ for 10 minutes as you're leaving London, vs a worker who may be driving around all day.0
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I'm pretty sure the system can be finessed eventually e.g. when I take my daughter's stuff up to Uni I have to enter the zone for a mile or two, I unload the car and park it up for the weekend then drive a couple of miles back out. It would make more sense to have a system that charges more for each camera you ping rather than a single flat daily charge as you want to reduce journeys. I can see people taking the view that if they've paid for the day anyway they may as well use the car for other journeys that day.0
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Indeed. For example if you live in Harefield and drive your dirty vehicle to Watford to work, then you are only contributing a very small amount of pollution in London compared with someone who drives a polluting vehicle all day making deliveries in Wandsworth.Jezyboy said:I think it's the all day v 10 minutes bit that is key.
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Ja, these things are not gonna be perfect, are they?kingstongraham said:
Indeed. For example if you live in Harefield and drive your dirty vehicle to Watford to work, then you are only contributing a very small amount of pollution in London compared with someone who drives a polluting vehicle all day making deliveries in Wandsworth.Jezyboy said:I think it's the all day v 10 minutes bit that is key.
I guess if you're 10 mins away, you'll have to weigh up if leaving your car 10 mins down the road is with the money or not.0 -
It's 10 minutes inside the charging zone. You could be driving from Uxbridge to Penzance.rick_chasey said:
If it's a 10 min journey, there's a decent chance there's a better way to get there than by car...Jezyboy said:I think it's the all day v 10 minutes bit that is key.
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Park your car 10 mins away and take an uber to your parking space?0
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Latest government wheeze is to stop councils using the DVLA database to enforce LTNs, which presumably means they'll have to be blocked properly instead of allowing emergency vehicles through.0
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I mean, the answer to that is a road pricing type model, which is probably more unpopular with its undertones of mass surveillance.kingstongraham said:
Indeed. For example if you live in Harefield and drive your dirty vehicle to Watford to work, then you are only contributing a very small amount of pollution in London compared with someone who drives a polluting vehicle all day making deliveries in Wandsworth.Jezyboy said:I think it's the all day v 10 minutes bit that is key.
I think the ULEZ story is an interesting one, on multiple levels, local air quality is loosely worse if more people drive diesel, but potentially co2 emissions are lower. It also has a little bit of a class struggle element, the wealthy can just buy a Tesla (or my 14 year old rusty KA if they think it could get past a MOT), the less well off cannot. But then the genuinely poorly off probably can't afford to drive a car anyway...
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Do you think this is true? I'm always shocked how relaxed everyone else is about the decline in things like cash. I've come to the conclusion that people just don't care.Jezyboy said:probably more unpopular with its undertones of mass surveillance.
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So it hurts the poor - in the wallet. Where it makes little difference is in saving the planet. Especially in the outer reaches of Greater London which are effectively semi ruralrick_chasey said:
Yeah I already know people who are changing their cars because their current ones are not economical, and they live in Fulham, so not likely to be hard up.Stevo_666 said:
You haven't answered my question. You go first.rick_chasey said:
Either it hurts the poor or it doesn’t matter, which is it?Stevo_666 said:
We need to ban all cars and head straight for Ricktopia then. Do you really think that charging a section of the population £12.50 a day to drive in greater London is going to make all the difference?rick_chasey said:They could replace the ulez tax with an additional “killing people with pollution” tax?
Sounds like you have swallowed the tfl narrative hook, line and sinker."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
It's not about saving the planet.Stevo_666 said:
So it hurts the poor - in the wallet. Where it makes little difference is in saving the planet. Especially in the outer reaches of Greater London which are effectively semi ruralrick_chasey said:
Yeah I already know people who are changing their cars because their current ones are not economical, and they live in Fulham, so not likely to be hard up.Stevo_666 said:
You haven't answered my question. You go first.rick_chasey said:
Either it hurts the poor or it doesn’t matter, which is it?Stevo_666 said:
We need to ban all cars and head straight for Ricktopia then. Do you really think that charging a section of the population £12.50 a day to drive in greater London is going to make all the difference?rick_chasey said:They could replace the ulez tax with an additional “killing people with pollution” tax?
Sounds like you have swallowed the tfl narrative hook, line and sinker.0 -
I think it's an easy attack line, that people aren't consistent and probably don't give a second thought to much of the data they give away.TheBigBean said:
Do you think this is true? I'm always shocked how relaxed everyone else is about the decline in things like cash. I've come to the conclusion that people just don't care.Jezyboy said:probably more unpopular with its undertones of mass surveillance.
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I don't know why there is a private vehicle exception for vehicles registered in the ULEZ zone. This would carve out taxis and the low usages people are exercised about, but still include commurers, hgvs, delivery vans tradesmen and wotnot - which is where the majority of the pollution comes from.
It is one extra line of code in the system automatically issuing the charges.0 -
🤣Stevo_666 said:
So it hurts the poor - in the wallet. Where it makes little difference is in saving the planet. Especially in the outer reaches of Greater London which are effectively semi ruralrick_chasey said:
Yeah I already know people who are changing their cars because their current ones are not economical, and they live in Fulham, so not likely to be hard up.Stevo_666 said:
You haven't answered my question. You go first.rick_chasey said:
Either it hurts the poor or it doesn’t matter, which is it?Stevo_666 said:
We need to ban all cars and head straight for Ricktopia then. Do you really think that charging a section of the population £12.50 a day to drive in greater London is going to make all the difference?rick_chasey said:They could replace the ulez tax with an additional “killing people with pollution” tax?
Sounds like you have swallowed the tfl narrative hook, line and sinker.
It's nice and leafy, but have yet to see the NFU set up a branch.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The poorest are far less likely to own a car and far more likely to use public tansport (22% car ownership in the lowest earning households up to 74% in those earning over £100k).Stevo_666 said:
So it hurts the poor - in the wallet. Where it makes little difference is in saving the planet. Especially in the outer reaches of Greater London which are effectively semi ruralrick_chasey said:
Yeah I already know people who are changing their cars because their current ones are not economical, and they live in Fulham, so not likely to be hard up.Stevo_666 said:
You haven't answered my question. You go first.rick_chasey said:
Either it hurts the poor or it doesn’t matter, which is it?Stevo_666 said:
We need to ban all cars and head straight for Ricktopia then. Do you really think that charging a section of the population £12.50 a day to drive in greater London is going to make all the difference?rick_chasey said:They could replace the ulez tax with an additional “killing people with pollution” tax?
Sounds like you have swallowed the tfl narrative hook, line and sinker.0 -
cos I know you like questionable graphs...
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
It is normal in a scientific journal to use meaningful axes. I can't quite muster any outrage.0
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Doesn't it depend what you are trying to present? If it is a comparison between countires, then it is entirely fair. No point in having the right hand side look the same for all countries.
If the tweeter was looking for something in the study that it wasn't trying to show and wanted to manufacture a reason to be angry, then fair play for finding it.0 -
Cobhamrjsterry said:
🤣Stevo_666 said:
So it hurts the poor - in the wallet. Where it makes little difference is in saving the planet. Especially in the outer reaches of Greater London which are effectively semi ruralrick_chasey said:
Yeah I already know people who are changing their cars because their current ones are not economical, and they live in Fulham, so not likely to be hard up.Stevo_666 said:
You haven't answered my question. You go first.rick_chasey said:
Either it hurts the poor or it doesn’t matter, which is it?Stevo_666 said:
We need to ban all cars and head straight for Ricktopia then. Do you really think that charging a section of the population £12.50 a day to drive in greater London is going to make all the difference?rick_chasey said:They could replace the ulez tax with an additional “killing people with pollution” tax?
Sounds like you have swallowed the tfl narrative hook, line and sinker.
It's nice and leafy, but have yet to see the NFU set up a branch.
St Albans
Oxsted
Cheshunt
Hemel
All have NFU offices......
You may consider them to be a be rural though.
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