LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

elbowloh

So, Boris's adviser on the ministerial code and the lead on the investigation into Pritti's bullying has quit after Boris backed Pritti.

rick_chasey

morstar said:

I agree completely with the practical arguments of why they’re preferable to a battle commander.

That’s why I think it is an issue that poses an ethical question to be looked at objectively along similar lines to those around chemical weapons.

They have already decided human controlled robots are fine, but autonomous robots are not - at least, the majority are in favour of that ban. US, UK and Russia seem to be opposing it.

Basically, people don't want terminators to be an actual thing. Which makes sense.

Where do you draw the line with remote controlled weapons? Do guided missiles count?

rjsterry

elbowloh said:

So, Boris's adviser on the ministerial code and the lead on the investigation into Pritti's bullying has quit after Boris backed Pritti.

Well you would, wouldn't you, if your boss publicly tossed nine months of your work in the bin.

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

At work is fine, though especially if it was 'unintentional'.

Also loving the transparently copy-and-pasted tweets in support of someone found to have broken the rules.

Being unintentional is actually worse.
That means it is part of the person's natural behaviour.

rjsterry

The usual "I'm sorry people were upset..." rather than actually apologising for the behaviour.

briantrumpet

rjsterry said:

The usual "I'm sorry people were upset..." rather than actually apologising for the behaviour.

On the plus side, she didn't actually call them snowflakes.

rick_chasey

Where do you think the bar is for a sackable behaviour in this cabinet?

pangolin

Upsetting the PM's fiancée.

surrey_commuter

pangolin said:

Upsetting the PM's fiancée.

and anybody else he is shagging

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

Where do you think the bar is for a sackable behaviour in this cabinet?

Telling the truth

TheBigBean

On the subject of bombing, my grandfather used to say it was an act of cowardice, and no one who had been bombed would bomb others. I'm always reminded of this when macho politicians jump up and down with excitement to bomb somewhere.

There are two problems with drones:
- The point Morstar makes about sanitising killing
- Also they are used to kill unarmed people which is highly questionable. It is very different to bombing a legitimate target e.g. a bridge and killing someone as a consequence.

orraloon

pangolin said:

Upsetting the PM's fiancée.

Can you have a fiancée when you are still married? Or is this another "specific and limited" interpretation of do what I want?

morstar

Pross said:

Both of the above. The key decision is in deciding someone needs to be killed. If that is deemed "ethical" then doing it with the minimal risk to other lives seems sensible. The real question is whether the targets are a genuine threat to the safety of the country making the strike.

If you know you would like somebody dead but the only means to do it are expensive, messy and risky, you are quite likely to come to a conclusion that it can’t be justified.
I.e. target doesn’t warrant a raid. A missile strike will create too much destruction etc. They execution order gets put on hold.
With a drone, that execution may be far more accessible and easy to carry out. I’m not at all sure that’s a good thing.

rick_chasey

They’re hardly going to make weapons to make it more difficult to kill someone

TheBigBean

Why is assassinating someone seen as acceptable by so many on here? I presume you think Putin takes it a bit far?

Pross

TheBigBean said:

Why is assassinating someone seen as acceptable by so many on here? I presume you think Putin takes it a bit far?

I don't think anyone had said that it is. What has been said is that if the powers that be have made that decision then taking the action using a drone is no more or less ethical than having a sniper on the ground.

As for Putin, his methods include nerve agents that kill other innocent people or radiological agents that cause someone a long term lingering illness and endanger the health of others who aren't involved.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

Why is assassinating someone seen as acceptable by so many on here? I presume you think Putin takes it a bit far?

I don't think anyone has said that.

TheBigBean

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Why is assassinating someone seen as acceptable by so many on here? I presume you think Putin takes it a bit far?

I don't think anyone had said that it is. What has been said is that if the powers that be have made that decision then taking the action using a drone is no more or less ethical than having a sniper on the ground.

As for Putin, his methods include nerve agents that kill other innocent people or radiological agents that cause someone a long term lingering illness and endanger the health of others who aren't involved.

So if Putin had ordered a drone strike on pizza express it would have been better?

I'm genuinely disappointed by the indifference people show to what was years of drone strikes in Pakistan. I can't remember the details, but a bunch of kids marched to Islamabad to complain about them. One of them died within days from a drone strike. Kids.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Why is assassinating someone seen as acceptable by so many on here? I presume you think Putin takes it a bit far?

I don't think anyone had said that it is. What has been said is that if the powers that be have made that decision then taking the action using a drone is no more or less ethical than having a sniper on the ground.

As for Putin, his methods include nerve agents that kill other innocent people or radiological agents that cause someone a long term lingering illness and endanger the health of others who aren't involved.

So if Putin had ordered a drone strike on pizza express it would have been better?

I'm genuinely disappointed by the indifference people show to what was years of drone strikes in Pakistan. I can't remember the details, but a bunch of kids marched to Islamabad to complain about them. One of them died within days from a drone strike. Kids.

I thought the discussion was about drones as a weapon in conventional war?

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Why is assassinating someone seen as acceptable by so many on here? I presume you think Putin takes it a bit far?

I don't think anyone had said that it is. What has been said is that if the powers that be have made that decision then taking the action using a drone is no more or less ethical than having a sniper on the ground.

As for Putin, his methods include nerve agents that kill other innocent people or radiological agents that cause someone a long term lingering illness and endanger the health of others who aren't involved.

So if Putin had ordered a drone strike on pizza express it would have been better?

I'm genuinely disappointed by the indifference people show to what was years of drone strikes in Pakistan. I can't remember the details, but a bunch of kids marched to Islamabad to complain about them. One of them died within days from a drone strike. Kids.

I thought the discussion was about drones as a weapon in conventional war?

Same idea, you don't kill unarmed people even in war.

ballysmate

I don't think people were arguing that you should tbh

morstar

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Why is assassinating someone seen as acceptable by so many on here? I presume you think Putin takes it a bit far?

I don't think anyone had said that it is. What has been said is that if the powers that be have made that decision then taking the action using a drone is no more or less ethical than having a sniper on the ground.

As for Putin, his methods include nerve agents that kill other innocent people or radiological agents that cause someone a long term lingering illness and endanger the health of others who aren't involved.

So if Putin had ordered a drone strike on pizza express it would have been better?

I'm genuinely disappointed by the indifference people show to what was years of drone strikes in Pakistan. I can't remember the details, but a bunch of kids marched to Islamabad to complain about them. One of them died within days from a drone strike. Kids.

I thought the discussion was about drones as a weapon in conventional war?

No. The article referenced their use in a wartime situation but I then raised the issue that I think they should be banned. I didn't stipulate any constraints, I simply think they should be banned outright.

I think in a war setting, my argument is weaker but one of their key attributes is their ease of deployment for assassinations outside of war situations, I think their use is extremely questionable. I do believe the opinion will become more commonplace in years to come as they become more widespread and knowledge of their use and existence grows.

A drone attack in a friendly nation may start to raise a few more questions. OK whilst it's assassinations in far away lands.

pblakeney

Drones are not going away regardless of any protests.

orraloon

You are aware of the Rise of the Machines documentary series yes?

Pross

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Why is assassinating someone seen as acceptable by so many on here? I presume you think Putin takes it a bit far?

I don't think anyone had said that it is. What has been said is that if the powers that be have made that decision then taking the action using a drone is no more or less ethical than having a sniper on the ground.

As for Putin, his methods include nerve agents that kill other innocent people or radiological agents that cause someone a long term lingering illness and endanger the health of others who aren't involved.

So if Putin had ordered a drone strike on pizza express it would have been better?

I'm genuinely disappointed by the indifference people show to what was years of drone strikes in Pakistan. I can't remember the details, but a bunch of kids marched to Islamabad to complain about them. One of them died within days from a drone strike. Kids.

It's not indifference, I'd rather people aren't going around killing others at all if possible. The debate as I read it, to use your example above, is that launching a drone strike on Pizza Express is less ethical than bombing it from a jet or attacking it with a regiment of ground troops.

morstar

pblakeney said:

Drones are not going away regardless of any protests.

I’m sure you’re right. I hadn’t suggested I was going to manage to get them banned.

TheBigBean

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Why is assassinating someone seen as acceptable by so many on here? I presume you think Putin takes it a bit far?

I don't think anyone had said that it is. What has been said is that if the powers that be have made that decision then taking the action using a drone is no more or less ethical than having a sniper on the ground.

As for Putin, his methods include nerve agents that kill other innocent people or radiological agents that cause someone a long term lingering illness and endanger the health of others who aren't involved.

So if Putin had ordered a drone strike on pizza express it would have been better?

I'm genuinely disappointed by the indifference people show to what was years of drone strikes in Pakistan. I can't remember the details, but a bunch of kids marched to Islamabad to complain about them. One of them died within days from a drone strike. Kids.

It's not indifference, I'd rather people aren't going around killing others at all if possible. The debate as I read it, to use your example above, is that launching a drone strike on Pizza Express is less ethical than bombing it from a jet or attacking it with a regiment of ground troops.

Pizza express wouldn't be a legitimate military target whether by novichok or missile. If a drone was used on a legitimate military target, then I guess they are fine for that purpose. but I don't think they are. A bit like landmines might be an ethical weapon if used in an ethical way, but they aren't used in an ethical way.

I've argued about this with army lawyers, and I just find their arguments to be very weak.

verylonglegs

rick_chasey said:

Where do you think the bar is for a sackable behaviour in this cabinet?

A jail sentence. Hancock and Williamson have proved being incompetent at your job is no issue, Cummings, whilst not cabinet, proved low level law breaking isn't important and now Patel has illustrated how you treat staff is of no consequence. That just leaves having to go to prison. Even then I suspect if it's less severe than rape Johnson will fight your corner.

rick_chasey

Former MI5 chief (so not partisan) on the government and a “culture of impunity”

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-hugh-kay-lecture-are-we-in-a-post-nolan-age

rick_chasey

Seems like Sunak hasn't learned the lesson of the GFC. Then again, he's a Brexiter, even if he doesn't play the populist card, so can we really be surprised?