LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,663
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/16/exclusive-conservative-donors-open-secret-talks-nigel-farage/

    I spotted this on the front page of the telegraph last night.
    Conservative Party donors have opened secret talks with Nigel Farage about an electoral pact which would see the party not stand candidates against the Brexit Party in dozens of seats at a snap general election.

    Seems the Tories really are going full von Papen.

    You have no problem with the Greens and LD's doing this but when the pro-leave side do the same you go all pant wetting

    I think it's more a question of do they realise what they are doing. Farage's whole USP is antiestablishment populism. He is modeling his party on 5-Star. He wants to overthrow the Tories, not team up with them. Allying with the Tories would lose him his ex-Labour support in the NE as well.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    rjsterry wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/16/exclusive-conservative-donors-open-secret-talks-nigel-farage/

    I spotted this on the front page of the telegraph last night.
    Conservative Party donors have opened secret talks with Nigel Farage about an electoral pact which would see the party not stand candidates against the Brexit Party in dozens of seats at a snap general election.

    Seems the Tories really are going full von Papen.

    You have no problem with the Greens and LD's doing this but when the pro-leave side do the same you go all pant wetting

    I think it's more a question of do they realise what they are doing. Farage's whole USP is antiestablishment populism. He is modeling his party on 5-Star. He wants to overthrow the Tories, not team up with them. Allying with the Tories would lose him his ex-Labour support in the NE as well.

    I guess for the tories it's easy to align with another party if that party has a single policy.

    Of course, maybe Boris in no 10 will end up as the death of populism. He will be unable to deliver a deal type brexit by the deadline, it will gradually be clear that this generation of populist politicians don't actalually get things done...

    If he somehow gets a no deal through, then where does farage go?
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    Never go full von Papen.
    _
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    rjsterry wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/16/exclusive-conservative-donors-open-secret-talks-nigel-farage/

    I spotted this on the front page of the telegraph last night.
    Conservative Party donors have opened secret talks with Nigel Farage about an electoral pact which would see the party not stand candidates against the Brexit Party in dozens of seats at a snap general election.

    Seems the Tories really are going full von Papen.

    You have no problem with the Greens and LD's doing this but when the pro-leave side do the same you go all pant wetting

    I think it's more a question of do they realise what they are doing. Farage's whole USP is antiestablishment populism. He is modeling his party on 5-Star. He wants to overthrow the Tories, not team up with them. Allying with the Tories would lose him his ex-Labour support in the NE as well.

    This will be aimed at Labour Leave constituencies so that the Brexit party has additional votes to challenge Labour and the deal will besomething like don't stand against Tory Leave politicians. Very sensible from a position where you do not want to see a Corbyn govt because TBP and Tories split their vote.

    This is also based on a snap GE. All bets are off on this if we don't leave on 31st October
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,663
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,247
    Imagine only being able to do anything about anything if Farage agrees with you.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,686
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Imagine only being able to do anything about anything if Farage agrees with you.
    Substitute Foster and her nut job proddies for Farridge... oh wait, that's how the dUK has been 'run' for the past 2 years.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,938
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers

    Should the remoaners in parliament have voted for the withdrawal agreement?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,663
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers

    How so? The LibDems won 12 seats at the last election; Greens 1; SNP 35; Plaid Cymru 4. They're the only remain parties in parliament. It's not us that have stopped things from happening.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,247
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers

    It's the Brexiters that are making the remainers disagree with them.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers

    Should the remoaners in parliament have voted for the withdrawal agreement?

    That was their best chance of BRINO and remaining supplicant to EU power so yes they have made a mistake in voting for the softest Brexit they were going to get.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,938
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers

    Should the remoaners in parliament have voted for the withdrawal agreement?

    That was their best chance of BRINO and remaining supplicant to EU power so yes they have made a mistake in voting for the softest Brexit they were going to get.

    By voting for it they would have been voting for brexit in name only
    By voting against it they were blocking brexit

    I'm not sure what your gripe is with the remoaners in parliament.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,938
    Raab out
    Javid in by the skin of his teeth.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers

    If I actually thought you knew what words meant, let alone had the self awareness to be sarcastic and or ironic, this would be quite funny.
    _
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers

    Should the remoaners in parliament have voted for the withdrawal agreement?

    That was their best chance of BRINO and remaining supplicant to EU power so yes they have made a mistake in voting for the softest Brexit they were going to get.

    Its hardly BRINO but whatever.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Jez mon wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers

    Should the remoaners in parliament have voted for the withdrawal agreement?

    That was their best chance of BRINO and remaining supplicant to EU power so yes they have made a mistake in voting for the softest Brexit they were going to get.

    Its hardly BRINO but whatever.

    You are wasting your time on that. He is fixated on calling TMs deal BRINO which neatly sums brexiteers up and explains the mess we are in - any version of brexit that isn't their own as almost worse than no brexit. Hence calling a hard brexit that isn't hard enough BRINO.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Have you ever considered that the reason that UKIP and now the Brexit party poll so high in the european elections but cannot get any significant number of seats in general elections is partly because the electorate know how the first past the post system works.

    All the people that want to leave realise that the only way to do that is to be in government and therefore wasting your vote to increase the likelihood of a labour government is not in their interests. As for the traditional labour supporting thatcher hating northerner of which there are probably a few there is not enough of them to get a government of Brexit party candidates so they keep voting with their traditions or just fail to vote.

    Maybe we will see the seismic shift that was Labours loss of MP's in Scotland and the UK will be coalition governments for ever more. Who knows.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Rolf F wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    And being the party that helped Farage into parliament is something Conservatives want on their record?

    It's the remoaners that are helping TBP into parliament.

    You need to remove your blinkers

    Should the remoaners in parliament have voted for the withdrawal agreement?

    That was their best chance of BRINO and remaining supplicant to EU power so yes they have made a mistake in voting for the softest Brexit they were going to get.

    Its hardly BRINO but whatever.

    You are wasting your time on that. He is fixated on calling TMs deal BRINO which neatly sums brexiteers up and explains the mess we are in - any version of brexit that isn't their own as almost worse than no brexit. Hence calling a hard brexit that isn't hard enough BRINO.

    The Chequers plan was BRINO and the WA was softer than that.

    The simple fact that the UK had no unilateral option to exit the WA demonstrates that it was BRINO
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    The Chequers plan was BRINO and the WA was softer than that.

    The simple fact that the UK had no unilateral option to exit the WA demonstrates that it was BRINO
    You start a conversation, you can't even finish it
    You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything
    When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed
    Say something once, why say it again?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    For the Tory voters around here; what is your take on the clear correlation between Tory gov't and material increases in homelessness and children living in poverty?

    Is it a price worth paying for prosperity elsewhere? The data is quite plain about this.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    For the Tory voters around here; what is your take on the clear correlation between Tory gov't and material increases in homelessness and children living in poverty?

    Is it a price worth paying for prosperity elsewhere? The data is quite plain about this.

    post up the data
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    For the Tory voters around here; what is your take on the clear correlation between Tory gov't and material increases in homelessness and children living in poverty?

    Is it a price worth paying for prosperity elsewhere? The data is quite plain about this.

    post up the data

    It's been widely reported.

    Over many years.

    Just today, reports on London:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... in-2018-19
    ough-sleeping figures in London have hit a record high, with 8,855 people recorded as bedding down on the capital’s street last year, according to annual Chain figures published by by the Greater London Authority. The 18% year-on-year rise in 2018-19 was called a “national disgrace” by the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, who blamed the crisis on welfare reforms and a lack of investment in social housing. The latest figures were two and half times the equivalent number recorded in 2009-10, when 3,673 people were identified as rough sleeping.

    And here

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 43381.html
    The number of children living in absolute poverty across the UK has increased by 200,000 in a year – to a total of 3.7 million.

    New government data shows that while the rate of absolute child poverty had been gradually falling since 2012, it is now rising again.

    The figures will come as an embarrassment for ministers, who last year responded to a rise in relative poverty by highlighting that absolute poverty rates – their preferred measure – had fallen.

    ADVERTISING

    inRead invented by Teads

    Campaigners said the main drivers of the increase were cuts to benefits and tax credits, which have hit working families with more than two children particularly hard.

    The figures show that among children in poverty there has been a rise in those who live in working families – up from 69 per cent to 72 per cent in a year.

    Read more

    UK child poverty hits highest level since 2008 financial crisis

    The government must act on child poverty warnings

    Child poverty on course for record high, report finds

    Teachers seeing ‘distressing’ new levels of child poverty in schools
    There has also been an increase in the risk of poverty for children in larger families, with the number of households with three or more children up from 33 per cent in 2012 to 43 per cent.

    Overall, across the whole population, 100,000 more people are living in absolute poverty, with the figure now standing at 12.5 million.

    Shadow work and pensions secretary Margaret Greenwood said the figures highlighted the “devastating impact of austerity on families across the country”.

    “The government must wake up to these figures, end the benefit freeze and stop the rollout of universal credit which is pushing people into poverty,” she added.

    Research carried out for the Child Poverty Action Group to coincide with the publication of the figures found that the four-year freeze on children’s benefits alone would lead to average loses of £240 per year for families with children.

    And then the UN report into UK poverty.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48354692
    To anyone familiar with the shifting landscape of Britain's poorest communities since 2010, there is nothing factually new in these findings.

    By highlighting them in one short, 20-page report, however, Philip Alston raises a fundamental question - is the government, and the country, comfortable with the society that we've become?

    He outlines the normalisation of food banks, rising levels of homelessness and child poverty, steep cuts to benefits and policing, and severe restrictions on legal aid.

    In Professor Alston's view, these are the unequivocal consequences of deliberate, calculated political decisions.

    Ministers have long argued they had no choice but to cut public spending. Whatever the motivation, life has become a lot harder in recent years for millions of people in the UK.

    It's all there to see if you actually visit this places SC.

    So, I'll pose the question again - or are people just going to debate the data to avoid the real question?


    Can look the rest up yourself, but it's all there to find.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    For the Tory voters around here; what is your take on the clear correlation between Tory gov't and material increases in homelessness and children living in poverty?

    Is it a price worth paying for prosperity elsewhere? The data is quite plain about this.

    post up the data

    It's been widely reported.

    Over many years.

    Just today, reports on London:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... in-2018-19
    ough-sleeping figures in London have hit a record high, with 8,855 people recorded as bedding down on the capital’s street last year, according to annual Chain figures published by by the Greater London Authority. The 18% year-on-year rise in 2018-19 was called a “national disgrace” by the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, who blamed the crisis on welfare reforms and a lack of investment in social housing. The latest figures were two and half times the equivalent number recorded in 2009-10, when 3,673 people were identified as rough sleeping.

    And here

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 43381.html
    The number of children living in absolute poverty across the UK has increased by 200,000 in a year – to a total of 3.7 million.

    New government data shows that while the rate of absolute child poverty had been gradually falling since 2012, it is now rising again.

    The figures will come as an embarrassment for ministers, who last year responded to a rise in relative poverty by highlighting that absolute poverty rates – their preferred measure – had fallen.

    ADVERTISING

    inRead invented by Teads

    Campaigners said the main drivers of the increase were cuts to benefits and tax credits, which have hit working families with more than two children particularly hard.

    The figures show that among children in poverty there has been a rise in those who live in working families – up from 69 per cent to 72 per cent in a year.

    Read more

    UK child poverty hits highest level since 2008 financial crisis

    The government must act on child poverty warnings

    Child poverty on course for record high, report finds

    Teachers seeing ‘distressing’ new levels of child poverty in schools
    There has also been an increase in the risk of poverty for children in larger families, with the number of households with three or more children up from 33 per cent in 2012 to 43 per cent.

    Overall, across the whole population, 100,000 more people are living in absolute poverty, with the figure now standing at 12.5 million.

    Shadow work and pensions secretary Margaret Greenwood said the figures highlighted the “devastating impact of austerity on families across the country”.

    “The government must wake up to these figures, end the benefit freeze and stop the rollout of universal credit which is pushing people into poverty,” she added.

    Research carried out for the Child Poverty Action Group to coincide with the publication of the figures found that the four-year freeze on children’s benefits alone would lead to average loses of £240 per year for families with children.

    And then the UN report into UK poverty.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48354692
    To anyone familiar with the shifting landscape of Britain's poorest communities since 2010, there is nothing factually new in these findings.

    By highlighting them in one short, 20-page report, however, Philip Alston raises a fundamental question - is the government, and the country, comfortable with the society that we've become?

    He outlines the normalisation of food banks, rising levels of homelessness and child poverty, steep cuts to benefits and policing, and severe restrictions on legal aid.

    In Professor Alston's view, these are the unequivocal consequences of deliberate, calculated political decisions.

    Ministers have long argued they had no choice but to cut public spending. Whatever the motivation, life has become a lot harder in recent years for millions of people in the UK.

    It's all there to see if you actually visit this places SC.

    So, I'll pose the question again - or are people just going to debate the data to avoid the real question?


    Can look the rest up yourself, but it's all there to find.

    ahh - I thought you had historical data to show these stats going up when we had a Tory Govt and falling when we did not
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,663
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    For the Tory voters around here; what is your take on the clear correlation between Tory gov't and material increases in homelessness and children living in poverty?

    Is it a price worth paying for prosperity elsewhere? The data is quite plain about this.

    post up the data

    It's been widely reported.

    Over many years.

    Just today, reports on London:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... in-2018-19
    ough-sleeping figures in London have hit a record high, with 8,855 people recorded as bedding down on the capital’s street last year, according to annual Chain figures published by by the Greater London Authority. The 18% year-on-year rise in 2018-19 was called a “national disgrace” by the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, who blamed the crisis on welfare reforms and a lack of investment in social housing. The latest figures were two and half times the equivalent number recorded in 2009-10, when 3,673 people were identified as rough sleeping.

    And here

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 43381.html
    The number of children living in absolute poverty across the UK has increased by 200,000 in a year – to a total of 3.7 million.

    New government data shows that while the rate of absolute child poverty had been gradually falling since 2012, it is now rising again.

    The figures will come as an embarrassment for ministers, who last year responded to a rise in relative poverty by highlighting that absolute poverty rates – their preferred measure – had fallen.

    ADVERTISING

    inRead invented by Teads

    Campaigners said the main drivers of the increase were cuts to benefits and tax credits, which have hit working families with more than two children particularly hard.

    The figures show that among children in poverty there has been a rise in those who live in working families – up from 69 per cent to 72 per cent in a year.

    Read more

    UK child poverty hits highest level since 2008 financial crisis

    The government must act on child poverty warnings

    Child poverty on course for record high, report finds

    Teachers seeing ‘distressing’ new levels of child poverty in schools
    There has also been an increase in the risk of poverty for children in larger families, with the number of households with three or more children up from 33 per cent in 2012 to 43 per cent.

    Overall, across the whole population, 100,000 more people are living in absolute poverty, with the figure now standing at 12.5 million.

    Shadow work and pensions secretary Margaret Greenwood said the figures highlighted the “devastating impact of austerity on families across the country”.

    “The government must wake up to these figures, end the benefit freeze and stop the rollout of universal credit which is pushing people into poverty,” she added.

    Research carried out for the Child Poverty Action Group to coincide with the publication of the figures found that the four-year freeze on children’s benefits alone would lead to average loses of £240 per year for families with children.

    And then the UN report into UK poverty.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48354692
    To anyone familiar with the shifting landscape of Britain's poorest communities since 2010, there is nothing factually new in these findings.

    By highlighting them in one short, 20-page report, however, Philip Alston raises a fundamental question - is the government, and the country, comfortable with the society that we've become?

    He outlines the normalisation of food banks, rising levels of homelessness and child poverty, steep cuts to benefits and policing, and severe restrictions on legal aid.

    In Professor Alston's view, these are the unequivocal consequences of deliberate, calculated political decisions.

    Ministers have long argued they had no choice but to cut public spending. Whatever the motivation, life has become a lot harder in recent years for millions of people in the UK.

    It's all there to see if you actually visit this places SC.

    So, I'll pose the question again - or are people just going to debate the data to avoid the real question?


    Can look the rest up yourself, but it's all there to find.

    ahh - I thought you had historical data to show these stats going up when we had a Tory Govt and falling when we did not

    It would appear to be more complicated than that.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/homelessness-england/

    It is going up now, but was also rising in the late '90s before falling dramatically. One might say that high homelessness rates correlate with governments not addressing the problem.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,938
    Dan Bloom
    ‏
    Verified account

    @danbloom1
    Follow Follow @danbloom1
    More
    The Tories have selected Chris Davies to fight the by-election to replace Chris Davies after Chris Davies was convicted of criminal offences and booted from office over his expenses
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Dan Bloom
    ‏
    Verified account

    @danbloom1
    Follow Follow @danbloom1
    More
    The Tories have selected Chris Davies to fight the by-election to replace Chris Davies after Chris Davies was convicted of criminal offences and booted from office over his expenses

    fact is often stranger than fiction
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Dan Bloom
    ‏
    Verified account

    @danbloom1
    Follow Follow @danbloom1
    More
    The Tories have selected Chris Davies to fight the by-election to replace Chris Davies after Chris Davies was convicted of criminal offences and booted from office over his expenses

    fact is often stranger than fiction

    Once I would have seen that as strange but it is the new normal.

    I'd suggest we are heading for the same kind of politicians that are running the USA. Get used to it.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Hypocrite wrote:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/16/exclusive-conservative-donors-open-secret-talks-nigel-farage/

    I spotted this on the front page of the telegraph last night.
    Conservative Party donors have opened secret talks with Nigel Farage about an electoral pact which would see the party not stand candidates against the Brexit Party in dozens of seats at a snap general election.

    Seems the Tories really are going full von Papen.

    I see the usual hypocrites are turning a blind eye to Plaid Cymru's proposed stance in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election about whether they should stand a candidate or step aside for other pro-remain parties
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    Learn what words mean.
    _

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