LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

pangolin

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

TL:DR
Millennials should stop whining and get on with making their own way in the world

On a macro level this is quite difficult when earnings have not moved since 2007 and the breakdown of earnings by age is that under 35-40 earnings have *dropped* since 2009 and have grown by roughly the same level for those over.

I'm not whining about my own experience - I bought a house in my 20s with my own money (well, mine and my wife's) with no external help. I earn fine.

Let me try again

Since the war the males in the Romford branch of the Chasey family have followed their father into the print/taxi/market stall/car plant and through the generations have all seen an improvement in their relative wealth as measured by a slightly bigger house, slightly better car, the coming of package holidays etc. Then in the late 80s the latest male Chasey got a job as runner in a money broker, worked his way up and ended up earning £250k a year.

Other than the fact that he can afford to privately educate his kids or fund a start up for them why should they expect to do better than their father?

That's not a very macro view of the situation. Is anyone saying that all children should earn more than their parents?

The fact that he can fund them/they can expect to inherit from him does give them an advantage over others in the same cohort, and that advantage is growing.

Maybe I am being too literal in my interpretation but to me that is exactly what Rick is saying. For generations that is exactly what happened, my argument is that economic mobility under Maggie broke the link.

That's exactly what happened until Maggie came along? Literally everyone just did the same as their father and standards of living ticked up a bit gradually?

on a macro level yes

there was no problem until the generation after the increase in social/economic mobility arose

surprised nobody has objected to my suggestion that Maggie improved mobility by closing down traditional employers

I think I'm more puzzled by your conclusion than by how you got there.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples like the imaginary Chaseys above - but that didn't happen to the entire generation did it. Nor, I suspect, did it happen enough to account for the difference in Rick's chart.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

elbowloh

Don't also forget how automation and technology removed many traditional labour intensive and poorly paid jobs.

kingstongraham

Why does everyone think it's down to grievance, and not a belief that Britain could be even better?

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

Why does everyone think it's down to grievance, and not a belief that Britain could be even better?

Both.
I believe that Britain could be a lot better but having grievances will achieve nothing.

pangolin

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

I'm not suggesting it's right, only that this is what happens, and this is the diving force behind the polarisation not just of politics but also of age being the the most significant factor in the likelihood for voting one way or the other.

pangolin

rick_chasey said:

I'm not whining about my own experience - I bought a house in my 20s with my own money (well, mine and my wife's) with no external help. I earn fine.

rjsterry

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

The confusion has arisen from this post mentioning grievances.

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

pangolin

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

Ah fair enough. It does feel like this debate regularly derails into people telling each other things aren't that bad, they should just work harder, whatever. Which is less interesting than debating the macro issue. Not saying you do that, just rambling...

pangolin

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

The confusion has arisen from this post mentioning grievances.

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

I thought it was fairly clear given what he'd already said that he meant generally, not specifically. Oh well.

pblakeney

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

The confusion has arisen from this post mentioning grievances.

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

I thought it was fairly clear given what he'd already said that he meant generally, not specifically. Oh well.

That's the problem with making things sound personal then opening up to general.
It is his "favourite hobby horse".

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

The confusion has arisen from this post mentioning grievances.

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

I thought it was fairly clear given what he'd already said that he meant generally, not specifically. Oh well.

That's the problem with making things sound personal then opening up to general.
It is his "favourite hobby horse".

I think that graph of age vs likelihood to voting Labour/Tory defines the political landscape much more than people really realise.

I don't think you can really understand the political shift without understanding the generational differences, and looking at what the differences are.

It makes the signalling and the policy of the Tories make more sense, at least to me, and the challenge labour has.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

The confusion has arisen from this post mentioning grievances.

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

I thought it was fairly clear given what he'd already said that he meant generally, not specifically. Oh well.

That's the problem with making things sound personal then opening up to general.
It is his "favourite hobby horse".

I think that graph of age vs likelihood to voting Labour/Tory defines the political landscape much more than people really realise.

I don't think you can really understand the political shift without understanding the generational differences, and looking at what the differences are.

It makes the signalling and the policy of the Tories make more sense, at least to me, and the challenge labour has.

I think you are looking at age as the cause, when it is just a correlated statistic. People don't tend to start voting more right wing *because* they get older.

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

The confusion has arisen from this post mentioning grievances.

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

I thought it was fairly clear given what he'd already said that he meant generally, not specifically. Oh well.

That's the problem with making things sound personal then opening up to general.
It is his "favourite hobby horse".

I think that graph of age vs likelihood to voting Labour/Tory defines the political landscape much more than people really realise.

I don't think you can really understand the political shift without understanding the generational differences, and looking at what the differences are.

It makes the signalling and the policy of the Tories make more sense, at least to me, and the challenge labour has.

I think you are looking at age as the cause, when it is just a correlated statistic. People don't tend to start voting more right wing *because* they get older.

No I'm saying the cause is ultimately down to the economic prospects (or lack therof) of the younger generation, and that the older generations are burying their head in the sand about the problem and this is creating the divide.

elbowloh

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

I think sometimes there definitely does need to more appreciation that "we" have been lucky to have been born in wealthy nation with human rights and have it a lot better (on our scale of what is valued) than billions around the world.

I think also though that this does not hide the fact that those who have been "very lucky" can attribute some of that luck to a society that is skewed by giving certain sections of society many more chances to be lucky or who are playing a different game than the rest of us, or who, i guess, get to start the 100m race at the 90m line.

pangolin

So if the wealth gap is widening and people are on average older before they become wealthy/own a house/feel economically stable (whatever) are the lines on that graph gradually shifting right? Are people voting labour later in life? Or is it too soon to tell.

rick_chasey

pangolin said:

So if the wealth gap is widening and people are on average older before they become wealthy/own a house/feel economically stable (whatever) are the lines on that graph gradually shifting right? Are people voting labour later in life? Or is it too soon to tell.

So the crossover was actually older previous election - the shift left on the graph is probably down to just better success on all fronts for the Tories.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

Nope, I'm suggesting that you wait. As I wrote above.

pangolin

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

Nope, I'm suggesting that you wait. As I wrote above.

What age do people have to be before the complaints are valid but it's too late and they're crying over spilt milk?

pangolin

rick_chasey said:

pangolin said:

So if the wealth gap is widening and people are on average older before they become wealthy/own a house/feel economically stable (whatever) are the lines on that graph gradually shifting right? Are people voting labour later in life? Or is it too soon to tell.

So the crossover was actually older previous election - the shift left on the graph is probably down to just better success on all fronts for the Tories.

Interesting. Doesn't that contradict the idea that it's linked to age/wealth though, and imply it's more correlation like RJS suggested.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

The confusion has arisen from this post mentioning grievances.

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

I thought it was fairly clear given what he'd already said that he meant generally, not specifically. Oh well.

That's the problem with making things sound personal then opening up to general.
It is his "favourite hobby horse".

I think that graph of age vs likelihood to voting Labour/Tory defines the political landscape much more than people really realise.

I don't think you can really understand the political shift without understanding the generational differences, and looking at what the differences are.

It makes the signalling and the policy of the Tories make more sense, at least to me, and the challenge labour has.

I think you are looking at age as the cause, when it is just a correlated statistic. People don't tend to start voting more right wing *because* they get older.

I am sure a Brexit voting graph would show an even stronger correlation with age, maybe there are others

kingstongraham

2015


2017


2019


So much of the last two elections will be Brexit and Corbyn (for and against both) it's difficult to pin anything down.

In 2010, among 18-24 year olds, split was 30-31-30 between Con, Labour and LD.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

Nope, I'm suggesting that you wait. As I wrote above.

I'm not sure you understand the issue.

At the same given age, previous generations were substantially wealthier relative to the rest of the population. That means younger people are priced out of more parts of the economy.

It's not about patience. It's about economic opportunity.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

The confusion has arisen from this post mentioning grievances.

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

I thought it was fairly clear given what he'd already said that he meant generally, not specifically. Oh well.

That's the problem with making things sound personal then opening up to general.
It is his "favourite hobby horse".

I think that graph of age vs likelihood to voting Labour/Tory defines the political landscape much more than people really realise.

I don't think you can really understand the political shift without understanding the generational differences, and looking at what the differences are.

It makes the signalling and the policy of the Tories make more sense, at least to me, and the challenge labour has.

I think you are looking at age as the cause, when it is just a correlated statistic. People don't tend to start voting more right wing *because* they get older.

No I'm saying the cause is ultimately down to the economic prospects (or lack therof) of the younger generation, and that the older generations are burying their head in the sand about the problem and this is creating the divide.

I don't think the problems are any more the responsibility of my parents' generation than mine or yours or my daughters'. Climate change has been about 300 years in the making. The inherited advantages of holding property go back far further than that. I think it's dawning on people that progress towards a more equitable society is not automatic and needs to be worked at. That's not a reason to give up on the idea or to turn on each other to apportion blame for why we still have some way to go.

Of course if we keep focusing on the differences rather than the shared values and experiences we can really double down on whose fault it is rather than what we can all do to tackle these issues.

Jezyboy

Something that seems strange to me is that the world of work is in many ways dominated by tech. Yet the generation that grew up with tech, (and specifically tech that wasn't as plug and play as most modern stuff) seemingly hasn't been able to use it to their advantage.

This goes for both late x-ers and millenials.

rjsterry

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

If people think all the world's problems are all down to one small section of the current population, then they are idiots. They got lucky. In the grand scheme of things, so are you; just not quite as lucky. Feeling aggrieved is not going to solve anything.

He has specifically said he doesn't have a personal grievance and is doing alright.

Sorry, for clarity, that was a generic 'you', not RC specifically.

The confusion has arisen from this post mentioning grievances.

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The same reason everyone expects economic growth to happen.

Are you suggesting that there is a ceiling for economic growth?

Either way, whether they should feel that or not, that is the feeling, and that is driving the politics.

I would say that there is no reason why economic growth should happen, check out Russia. Growth in the UK would have flatlined without massive govt spending.

I don't think Western Europe should expect economic growth of 2-3%

Right so from the perspective of the under 40 - you've got a generation who saw earnings across the board rise substantially, at the expense of the climate, and then they turn around and say "nah that was unsustainable and yeah, you're gonna earn sh!t, we've polluted the atmosphere to the point where climate change is a thing".

That creates grievances.

I thought it was fairly clear given what he'd already said that he meant generally, not specifically. Oh well.

That's the problem with making things sound personal then opening up to general.
It is his "favourite hobby horse".

I think that graph of age vs likelihood to voting Labour/Tory defines the political landscape much more than people really realise.

I don't think you can really understand the political shift without understanding the generational differences, and looking at what the differences are.

It makes the signalling and the policy of the Tories make more sense, at least to me, and the challenge labour has.

I think you are looking at age as the cause, when it is just a correlated statistic. People don't tend to start voting more right wing *because* they get older.

No I'm saying the cause is ultimately down to the economic prospects (or lack therof) of the younger generation, and that the older generations are burying their head in the sand about the problem and this is creating the divide.

I don't think the problems are any more the responsibility of my parents' generation than mine or yours or my daughters'. Climate change has been about 300 years in the making. The inherited advantages of holding property go back far further than that. I think it's dawning on people that progress towards a more equitable society is not automatic and needs to be worked at. That's not a reason to give up on the idea or to turn on each other to apportion blame for why we still have some way to go.

Of course if we keep focusing on the differences rather than the shared values and experiences we can really double down on whose fault it is rather than what we can all do to tackle these issues.

I'm also unconvinced that voting patterns in the last few years tell you very much other than the dire state of politics of all colours.

TheBigBean

My grandparents got to live through two world wars (fight in one of them) and grow up in the great depression. My parents got to retire in their 50s with a defined benefit pension. I got to spend years travelling, but will need to retire much later. I have sympathy for the young of today and think more could be done, but life is different for every generation.

pangolin

TheBigBean said:

My grandparents got to live through two world wars (fight in one of them) and grow up in the great depression. My parents got to retire in their 50s with a defined benefit pension. I got to spend years travelling, but will need to retire much later. I have sympathy for the young of today and think more could be done, but life is different for every generation.

This is a fairly common sentiment I think. If benign apathy paid the bills the wealth divide would be closed in no time.