Team Sky to end in 2019

shirley_basso

Joelsim wrote:

I think it’ll be a good thing, especially if they get a new sponsor, but one with a smaller budget. I’ve nothing against Sky, but buying up a stack of top riders does make it a bit predictable. I’d be happy to see how they do with a comparable team to some of the others.

They usually buy a stack of cheap but promising riders.

iainf72

For Ricks longer races theory (which i support) I always point people to this

https://www.53x12.com/engine-vs-tank

ocdupalais

iainf72 wrote:

For Ricks longer races theory (which i support) I always point people to this

https://www.53x12.com/engine-vs-tank

Funny he should mention Colle di Finestre in the last Giro (2005) as being significant for demonstrating his argument re engine vs tank...

tailwindhome

RichN95 wrote:

Of the 2018 roster, only Kwiatkowski had ever been ranked in CQ Rankings Top 50 prior to riding for Sky.

Quality stat

Vino'sGhost

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Of the 2018 roster, only Kwiatkowski had ever been ranked in CQ Rankings Top 50 prior to riding for Sky.

Quality stat

What happens to them a year or more after theyve left?

shirley_basso

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Of the 2018 roster, only Kwiatkowski had ever been ranked in CQ Rankings Top 50 prior to riding for Sky.

Quality stat

This is the quote I was looking for to debunk Joelsim theory.

RichN95.

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Of the 2018 roster, only Kwiatkowski had ever been ranked in CQ Rankings Top 50 prior to riding for Sky.

Quality stat

By contrast the original Sky roster in 2010 had seven riders who had previously been in the CQ Top 50

tailwindhome

If Froome had missed out on the Vuelta and left Sky in 2011 would he have won the TDF or finished the Economics degree?

bigmat

Vino'sGhost wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Of the 2018 roster, only Kwiatkowski had ever been ranked in CQ Rankings Top 50 prior to riding for Sky.

Quality stat

What happens to them a year or more after theyve left?

Mixed. Gerrans and Viviani have done far better. Nieve much the same as before. Landa dipped a bit but not massively. EBH improved a little. Swift has done nothing much. I don't think there's any real pattern, but probably enough for a troll to mount a cynical argument whichever way they want to run with it.

jerry3571

BigMat wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Of the 2018 roster, only Kwiatkowski had ever been ranked in CQ Rankings Top 50 prior to riding for Sky.

Quality stat

What happens to them a year or more after theyve left?

Mixed. Gerrans and Viviani have done far better. Nieve much the same as before. Landa dipped a bit but not massively. EBH improved a little. Swift has done nothing much. I don't think there's any real pattern, but probably enough for a troll to mount a cynical argument whichever way they want to run with it.

Trolls can be nice

RichN95.

jerry3571 wrote:

Trolls can be nice

Shrek is an ogre, not a troll.

jerry3571

RichN95 wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Trolls can be nice

Shrek is an ogre, not a troll.

RichN95.

Another thing to note amongst people celebrating the end to Sky's 'domination' of GTs.

In nine years they have won 8 GTs, which still puts them one behind Contador (pre-DQs). And they've won the same number of monuments as Niki Terpstra.

FocusZing

Exactly! Chew on that.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Another thing to note amongst people celebrating the end to Sky's 'domination' of GTs.

In nine years they have won 8 GTs, which still puts them one behind Contador (pre-DQs). And they've won the same number of monuments as Niki Terpstra.

Stats are like swimwear. They show you a fair bit but they don’t show you it all.

jerry3571

Fancy comparing Sky to that drug cheat Contador

pinno

bobmcstuff wrote:

FocusZing wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

For example, Froome’s Giro win feels like a solo Froome effort and was bloody exciting.

His 4th Tour felt like more of a Sky win as they choked everyone off before letting Chris spank them in the TT.

The key word this is "feels"

His Giro win was based on a stage managed to within an inch of its life by Sky. Much like politics, no one really cares about truth, just what feels right.

To be more specific though - we love the tactic of using your team to blow the race up and make it a man v man race.

That’s why we give QS slack and usually not sky - sky usually like to shut it down.

Mainly the nature of GTs and what tactics work ofc but we all want the man v man.


THIS IS WHY RACES NEED TO BE LONGER.

Races or Stages?

I don't think the length of a stage maters much, if it's flat it's still 250km of bore fest until 5km. Just ban the radios, power meters, salary cap to spread the talent and watch the highlights on flat sprint days.

Rick's argument (and I agree at least a bit) is that long stages add to collective fatigue which makes it harder to control the race.

They may not be brilliant viewing at the time but they lay important groundwork for more excitement later. Very long stages followed by super short mountain stages has led to good racing a few times in the last few years.

This is true. Whilst technology, training, power meters, diet and the collective of marginal gains has pushed average speeds on stages through the roof, stage lengths have not really reflected that.

Is it me or are accidents becoming worse and worse? Is this partly due to the mind blowing speeds achieved on the approach to a sprint finish in the Tours? Would a longer 'grind' lower the approach speed or string the line out a bit more?

On the other hand... Every year, many riders bemoan both the Giro Vuelta route for whatever reason. Sometimes, the Giro is barely days old and then they're going uphill. However, this always makes for less 'processional*', more exciting racing.

*For want of a better word but you know what I mean.

That leads to: Is it Sky's fault that they are able to shut tours down when the fault does not lie with the team but with the course? Froome's Giro win was hardly on the back of a Sky shut down and we will always reflect on that as one of the most entertaining GT's in recent years.

pinno

...

jerry3571

Pinno wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

FocusZing wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

For example, Froome’s Giro win feels like a solo Froome effort and was bloody exciting.

His 4th Tour felt like more of a Sky win as they choked everyone off before letting Chris spank them in the TT.

The key word this is "feels"

His Giro win was based on a stage managed to within an inch of its life by Sky. Much like politics, no one really cares about truth, just what feels right.

To be more specific though - we love the tactic of using your team to blow the race up and make it a man v man race.

That’s why we give QS slack and usually not sky - sky usually like to shut it down.

Mainly the nature of GTs and what tactics work ofc but we all want the man v man.


THIS IS WHY RACES NEED TO BE LONGER.

Races or Stages?

I don't think the length of a stage maters much, if it's flat it's still 250km of bore fest until 5km. Just ban the radios, power meters, salary cap to spread the talent and watch the highlights on flat sprint days.

Rick's argument (and I agree at least a bit) is that long stages add to collective fatigue which makes it harder to control the race.

They may not be brilliant viewing at the time but they lay important groundwork for more excitement later. Very long stages followed by super short mountain stages has led to good racing a few times in the last few years.

This is true. Whilst technology, training, power meters, diet and the collective of marginal gains has pushed average speeds on stages through the roof, stage lengths have not really reflected that.

Is it me or are accidents becoming worse and worse? Is this partly due to the mind blowing speeds achieved on the approach to a sprint finish in the Tours? Would a longer 'grind' lower the approach speed or string the line out a bit more?

On the other hand... Every year, many riders bemoan both the Giro Vuelta route for whatever reason. Sometimes, the Giro is barely days old and then they're going uphill. However, this always makes for less 'processional*', more exciting racing.

*For want of a better word but you know what I mean.

That leads to: Is it Sky's fault that they are able to shut tours down when the fault does not lie with the team but with the course? Froome's Giro win was hardly on the back of a Sky shut down and we will always reflect on that as one of the most entertaining GT's in recent years.

Just don't mention Stage 19 :shock: Just.... don't mention it.... Nothing to see here...

jerry3571

Just to be sensible a minute. They reckon (not sure what website) Froome is on £5 million a year. His entourage will add another £5 million to his annual budget so they're wondering who will buy him. At the moment he's a bit heavyweight for most teams.
They say, one or two favourite mechanics, a couple of favoured riders from Sky and Tim Kerrison adds a lot to the costs.

pinno

...but: How many more GT's has Froome got in him?

jerry3571

Pinno wrote:

...but: How many more GT's has Froome got in him?

Great point! Think his margins of winning have been shrinking over the years and the Giro was only won by a Bonkers stage 19 (which I won't mention) as otherwise Froome was looking like losing. Think him and Thomas are a bit long in the tooth now. Hmmm....Interesting times

pinno

Swimmers rarely see more than 2 Olympics unless they are exceptional because the Cardio Vascular system is put under such duress from their training (apparently).
I wonder if this high cadence (and in the words of that erudite soul Milemuncher, 'flappitty legs') style of Froome is sustainable physically? Will he reach a precipice and after that... back to BMXing.
Can the 2 disciplines be compared or is that spurious?

Please note: I never once mentioned stage 19.

awavey

Pinno wrote:

Swimmers rarely see more than 2 Olympics unless they are exceptional because the Cardio Vascular system is put under such duress from their training (apparently).
I wonder if this high cadence (and in the words of that erudite soul Milemuncher, 'flappitty legs') style of Froome is sustainable physically? Will he reach a precipice and after that... back to BMXing.
Can the 2 disciplines be compared or is that spurious?

Please note: I never once mentioned stage 19.

Michael Phelps did 5 Olympics didnt he ? won gold medals in 4 of them. if Froome wins his 5th TdF, he might consider retiring anyway if theres nothing firm in offers or happening with a Sky replacement

durhamwasp

jerry3571 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

...but: How many more GT's has Froome got in him?

Great point! Think his margins of winning have been shrinking over the years and the Giro was only won by a Bonkers stage 19 (which I won't mention) as otherwise Froome was looking like losing. Think him and Thomas are a bit long in the tooth now. Hmmm....Interesting times

Froome wins 3 straight GT's and podiums in the 4th, and Thomas dances the tour, and you consider them a bit long in the tooth?

I'd say Froome has another Tour and 2 or 3 GT's still in him, Thomas maybes 1 or 2 more.

jerry3571

durhamwasp wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

...but: How many more GT's has Froome got in him?

Great point! Think his margins of winning have been shrinking over the years and the Giro was only won by a Bonkers stage 19 (which I won't mention) as otherwise Froome was looking like losing. Think him and Thomas are a bit long in the tooth now. Hmmm....Interesting times

Froome wins 3 straight GT's and podiums in the 4th, and Thomas dances the tour, and you consider them a bit long in the tooth?

I'd say Froome has another Tour and 2 or 3 GT's still in him, Thomas maybes 1 or 2 more.

Think Froome had 7 months to prep for the Vuelta and was pretty poor (to his own standards) only the unmentionable stage 19 stood out. Time will tell of course as its all in the stars. No one can predict the end.

gsk82

jerry3571 wrote:

durhamwasp wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

...but: How many more GT's has Froome got in him?

Great point! Think his margins of winning have been shrinking over the years and the Giro was only won by a Bonkers stage 19 (which I won't mention) as otherwise Froome was looking like losing. Think him and Thomas are a bit long in the tooth now. Hmmm....Interesting times

Froome wins 3 straight GT's and podiums in the 4th, and Thomas dances the tour, and you consider them a bit long in the tooth?

I'd say Froome has another Tour and 2 or 3 GT's still in him, Thomas maybes 1 or 2 more.

Think Froome had 7 months to prep for the Vuelta and was pretty poor (to his own standards) only the unmentionable stage 19 stood out. Time will tell of course as its all in the stars. No one can predict the end.

He won on Zoncolon as well. It wasn't all about 1 stage.

jerry3571

gsk82 wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

durhamwasp wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

...but: How many more GT's has Froome got in him?

Great point! Think his margins of winning have been shrinking over the years and the Giro was only won by a Bonkers stage 19 (which I won't mention) as otherwise Froome was looking like losing. Think him and Thomas are a bit long in the tooth now. Hmmm....Interesting times

Froome wins 3 straight GT's and podiums in the 4th, and Thomas dances the tour, and you consider them a bit long in the tooth?

I'd say Froome has another Tour and 2 or 3 GT's still in him, Thomas maybes 1 or 2 more.

Think Froome had 7 months to prep for the Vuelta and was pretty poor (to his own standards) only the unmentionable stage 19 stood out. Time will tell of course as its all in the stars. No one can predict the end.

He won on Zoncolon as well. It wasn't all about 1 stage.

He had quite a few terrible stages. One which he said it was the hardest stage of his career where he lost time.

pinno

I did the nerdy thing.

Froome will be 34 in May.

I think, statistically, only 16 people (from what I can glean from the graphs) has won a GT at the age of 34 or older. I had to look up the others - Horner for example. He skews the averages, (the dirty rotten son of a motherless goat). So I went on numbers.

Out of a possible 251*.



*Disqualifactions and being stripped of wins makes the total number of GT winners slightly difficult.

salsiccia1

jerry3571 wrote:

durhamwasp wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

...but: How many more GT's has Froome got in him?

Great point! Think his margins of winning have been shrinking over the years and the Giro was only won by a Bonkers stage 19 (which I won't mention) as otherwise Froome was looking like losing. Think him and Thomas are a bit long in the tooth now. Hmmm....Interesting times

Froome wins 3 straight GT's and podiums in the 4th, and Thomas dances the tour, and you consider them a bit long in the tooth?

I'd say Froome has another Tour and 2 or 3 GT's still in him, Thomas maybes 1 or 2 more.

Think Froome had 7 months to prep for the Vuelta and was pretty poor (to his own standards) only the unmentionable stage 19 stood out. Time will tell of course as its all in the stars. No one can predict the end.

(I presume you mean the Giro) He came in undercooked to try and keep form into the Tour, crashed heavily in the warm-up for the day 1 time trial, took 2 weeks to find his form.

That being said, I agree and think he's got 1 or 2 years max at this level. He'll go all out for the Tour in 2019 and I don't think he'll fail.