Velo Birmingham & Midlands May 12 2019

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Posts

  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    kingrollo wrote:

    Pretty sure no one died in the first velo Birmingham so no

    or Velothon Wales - so no again....

    And nobody finished in 4 hours either... so maybe I should add "any fast closed road sportive"
  • arthur_scrimshawarthur_scrimshaw Posts: 2,582
    hopkinb wrote:

    I'm doing Ugo's Loop of Brum audax later this year with my brother (who has been out on a ride with Ugo, though is not on this forum). It will be interesting to compare the two events.

    You can't compare them. 90 riders Vs 15,000... all lanes and very few main roads, home made curry instead of bars and gels... small groups or solo, rather than pelotons, it's a different thing altogether and it's a different speed as well.
    You need to be a pretty strong rider to average in excess of 15 mph... AND you need to physically get off the bike in at least 3 places, probably spend an hour off the bike altogether... there won't be any racing, I tell'ya and you won't be done by lunch time, you'll be lucky to be home for dinner... :lol:

    I expect some won't be back until after 9 PM...

    I know which I much prefer the sound of.

    It involves curry.
  • gabriel959gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    Don't understand the lure of these rides, it is already a bit iffy when you join a Sunday ride with the club and there are a couple of new riders, imagine riding with 17,000 new people! Ok, it is closed roads, but you need to pay for it, possibly get a hotel room, it just sounds like an unnecessary expense for riding my bike with an increased risk of injury and accidents! Much prefer the sense of adventure of an audax which is a lot more what cycling is about, in my opinion.
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
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  • capt_slogcapt_slog Posts: 3,116
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Don't understand the lure of these rides, it is already a bit iffy when you join a Sunday ride with the club and there are a couple of new riders, imagine riding with 17,000 new people! Ok, it is closed roads, but you need to pay for it, possibly get a hotel room, it just sounds like an unnecessary expense for riding my bike with an increased risk of injury and accidents! Much prefer the sense of adventure of an audax which is a lot more what cycling is about, in my opinion.

    Where do you get "riding with 17,000 new people"? In my case, there were perhaps 16,000 in front of me, and likely some of them were in their cars and heading home before i got halfway round! :lol:
    The older I get, the better I was.

    Call it "booty" if you like, to me it's still a fat @rse.
  • Herb71Herb71 Posts: 278
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Don't understand the lure of these rides, it is already a bit iffy when you join a Sunday ride with the club and there are a couple of new riders, imagine riding with 17,000 new people! Ok, it is closed roads, but you need to pay for it, possibly get a hotel room, it just sounds like an unnecessary expense for riding my bike with an increased risk of injury and accidents! Much prefer the sense of adventure of an audax which is a lot more what cycling is about, in my opinion.

    imho a significant number are people looking for a challenge /target, and often not particularly experienced or confident cyclists. Perhaps some others (regardless of experience) looking to do a social event. I typically do one sportive a year, just to have a challenge in the diary to help keep me focussed. Though now I have discovered cyclocross, this will change what I am training for.

    This year I did the event with my son, who is just taking up cycling, so the Velo was a target we could both aim for.

    I think part of the problem is the massive difference in speeds coupled with the sheer number of entrants. The slowest riders and the 42 milers went off first meaning the faster riders have to contend with a lot of traffic. I was constantly overtaking people, and constantly being overtaken. Throw in a couple of idiots cutting people up and at times it got precarious.

    I will do it again, but you do have to keep your wits about you.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863

    It involves curry.

    albeit a mild one... I can't load it with the fierce amount of chillies I normally use, sadly... :lol:
  • hopkinbhopkinb Posts: 5,085
    hopkinb wrote:

    I'm doing Ugo's Loop of Brum audax later this year with my brother (who has been out on a ride with Ugo, though is not on this forum). It will be interesting to compare the two events.

    You can't compare them. 90 riders Vs 15,000... all lanes and very few main roads, home made curry instead of bars and gels... small groups or solo, rather than pelotons, it's a different thing altogether and it's a different speed as well.
    You need to be a pretty strong rider to average in excess of 15 mph... AND you need to physically get off the bike in at least 3 places, probably spend an hour off the bike altogether... there won't be any racing, I tell'ya and you won't be done by lunch time, you'll be lucky to be home for dinner... :lol:

    I expect some won't be back until after 9 PM...

    I meant compare as in to see which I prefer. I've done a couple of open road sportives, and now one closed road. Normally I'll do longer rides with 2 or 3 mates, but these are unstructured.

    I don't like bars and gels anyway, I normally have a pocket full of fig rolls and jelly babies.

    I'm looking forward to my first audax, and will up my weekly distance between now and then to prepare to some extent. What's the reason for having to dismount? Rough terrain? Too steep? Crossing water?!

    I love chilli in curry - make 2 batches? :wink:
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    hopkinb wrote:
    What's the reason for having to dismount? Rough terrain? Too steep? Crossing water?!

    The expectation is that you validate your ride, which means collecting proof of passage from 3 control points and information from 3 other. The info is easy enough to spot and you don't need to get off the bike, but you need a stamp from the first control and a shop, cafe' or ATM receipt from 2nd and third.
    Typically it works well, as you would stop to get a bite anyway. You can decide not to bother with validation, but people typically end up regretting doing so.

    This is an Audax in a nutshell

    https://whosatthewheel.com/2018/09/25/b ... -to-audax/

    Anyway... back to Velo Birmingham...
  • hopkinbhopkinb Posts: 5,085
    hopkinb wrote:
    What's the reason for having to dismount? Rough terrain? Too steep? Crossing water?!

    The expectation is that you validate your ride, which means collecting proof of passage from 3 control points and information from 3 other. The info is easy enough to spot and you don't need to get off the bike, but you need a stamp from the first control and a shop, cafe' or ATM receipt from 2nd and third.
    Typically it works well, as you would stop to get a bite anyway. You can decide not to bother with validation, but people typically end up regretting doing so.

    This is an Audax in a nutshell

    https://whosatthewheel.com/2018/09/25/b ... -to-audax/

    Anyway... back to Velo Birmingham...

    Ah, I get you. Yeah, I read your guide - very helpful.

    Yeah, Velo Birmingham. To summarise, I had a good time, it wasn't crowded, no choppers (well, except the large number of people who couldn't take a bottle from a cage without changing direction), lots of friendly Brummies lining the route, got a quick time considering it was my first imperial century and I had no long rides under my belt. Was it worth the £££? For the closed roads aspect - yes. Would I pay that much again? Probably not, unless it was something a lot more challenging. Was it well organised? The marshalling was a bit hands off at times - sharp turns weren't always advertised with sufficient warning, but everything else was fine.
  • kingrollokingrollo Posts: 3,131
    kingrollo wrote:

    Pretty sure no one died in the first velo Birmingham so no

    or Velothon Wales - so no again....

    And nobody finished in 4 hours either... so maybe I should add "any fast closed road sportive"

    Or just gracefully concede that your point that a cyclist dies in every closed road sportive was in fact incorrect.
  • theboyfoldtheboyfold Posts: 201

    Every RL100 has at least one casualty, so yes...

    I'm not saying he would have survived, I am saying that the dynamics of these accidents are very similar... riders going down while descending as a bunch... it's the same every year down Leith hill at RL 100.
    If the roads were open, people couldn't go downhill as a large bunch or indeed reach those sorts of speeds on shallow descents.
    My point is that closed roads make events more dangerous rather than less. I have seen folks on Strava doing the ride in just over 4 hours and everyone was at least an hour quicker than had it been a sportive on open roads, the sort of speed you expect in a race, which is a notoriously risky activity, so I stand by my comment

    You weren't there. You have no hard information on what happened. Only those in very close proximity do. However, you seem to have decided that this guy's death fits your boring monologue of "closed roads are rubbish, my way is the best" which is frankly ruining any of these threads as you seem to be determined to drag a discussion on a topic round to your agenda and your desire to promote the rides that you do, and the way that you like to ride.

    Guys like you are why road cyclists have such a bad rep, you really drag this place down.

    Oh, and just for your reference. The gent who died on RL100 last year was due to having a heart attack on the way up Leith Hill, not on the way down.

    Also, I can't find reports of deaths on the Tour of Cambridgeshire, and that's a closed road sportive.
  • kingrollokingrollo Posts: 3,131
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Don't understand the lure of these rides, it is already a bit iffy when you join a Sunday ride with the club and there are a couple of new riders, imagine riding with 17,000 new people! Ok, it is closed roads, but you need to pay for it, possibly get a hotel room, it just sounds like an unnecessary expense for riding my bike with an increased risk of injury and accidents! Much prefer the sense of adventure of an audax which is a lot more what cycling is about, in my opinion.

    The number 1 reason people don't cycle is fear of cars - so that (rightly or wrongly) is the appeal of these events.

    Think the 42 miler was a mistake - make the minimum distance 75 miles and you introduce a bit of quality control
  • theboyfoldtheboyfold Posts: 201
    kingrollo wrote:
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Don't understand the lure of these rides, it is already a bit iffy when you join a Sunday ride with the club and there are a couple of new riders, imagine riding with 17,000 new people! Ok, it is closed roads, but you need to pay for it, possibly get a hotel room, it just sounds like an unnecessary expense for riding my bike with an increased risk of injury and accidents! Much prefer the sense of adventure of an audax which is a lot more what cycling is about, in my opinion.

    The number 1 reason people don't cycle is fear of cars - so that (rightly or wrongly) is the appeal of these events.

    Think the 42 miler was a mistake - make the minimum distance 75 miles and you introduce a bit of quality control

    I'd agree on this. The roads were very busy in the first 45 miles, they were a lot quieter afterwards. The roads were also smaller, so it enhanced the crowded feel of the ride
  • kingrollokingrollo Posts: 3,131
    theboyfold wrote:

    Every RL100 has at least one casualty, so yes...

    I'm not saying he would have survived, I am saying that the dynamics of these accidents are very similar... riders going down while descending as a bunch... it's the same every year down Leith hill at RL 100.
    If the roads were open, people couldn't go downhill as a large bunch or indeed reach those sorts of speeds on shallow descents.
    My point is that closed roads make events more dangerous rather than less. I have seen folks on Strava doing the ride in just over 4 hours and everyone was at least an hour quicker than had it been a sportive on open roads, the sort of speed you expect in a race, which is a notoriously risky activity, so I stand by my comment

    You weren't there. You have no hard information on what happened. Only those in very close proximity do. However, you seem to have decided that this guy's death fits your boring monologue of "closed roads are rubbish, my way is the best" which is frankly ruining any of these threads as you seem to be determined to drag a discussion on a topic round to your agenda and your desire to promote the rides that you do, and the way that you like to ride.

    Guys like you are why road cyclists have such a bad rep, you really drag this place down.

    Oh, and just for your reference. The gent who died on RL100 last year was due to having a heart attack on the way up Leith Hill, not on the way down.

    Also, I can't find reports of deaths on the Tour of Cambridgeshire, and that's a closed road sportive.

    and Ugo was the guy who said Velo south should go ahead even though a severe weather warning was in place !!! - now he is saying these are events are too dangerous - you couldn't make it up !
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    kingrollo wrote:

    and Ugo was the guy who said Velo south should go ahead even though a severe weather warning was in place !!! - now he is saying these are events are too dangerous - you couldn't make it up !

    Accidents, fatal or not, of which there are about 30 every year at RL100 (some serious, some fatal) happen because of speed and large crowds, often the combination of the two, mainly it is too much sped given the conditions.
    I don't think a wet course makes things worse for a number of reasons
    1) speed is lower, as people take more care
    2) Number of riders is lower, as half will probably not bother

    As for Velo Birmingham, I think the route is sound and there is no reason for it NOT to go ahead, but if you can get round in 4 hours, then it means there are no speed restrictions and "racing" is allowed if not encouraged. I think the organisers should ensure this is a fun day on a bicycle and not a race masked as a cyclosportive. They could install speed traps and disqualify riders found going at 30 mph or such...
  • kingrollokingrollo Posts: 3,131
    kingrollo wrote:

    and Ugo was the guy who said Velo south should go ahead even though a severe weather warning was in place !!! - now he is saying these are events are too dangerous - you couldn't make it up !

    Accidents, fatal or not, of which there are about 30 every year at RL100 (some serious, some fatal) happen because of speed and large crowds, often the combination of the two, mainly it is too much sped given the conditions.
    I don't think a wet course makes things worse for a number of reasons
    1) speed is lower, as people take more care
    2) Number of riders is lower, as half will probably not bother

    As for Velo Birmingham, I think the route is sound and there is no reason for it NOT to go ahead, but if you can get round in 4 hours, then it means there are no speed restrictions and "racing" is allowed if not encouraged. I think the organisers should ensure this is a fun day on a bicycle and not a race masked as a cyclosportive. They could install speed traps and disqualify riders found going at 30 mph or such...

    Priceless
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    theboyfold wrote:

    Oh, and just for your reference. The gent who died on RL100 last year was due to having a heart attack on the way up Leith Hill, not on the way down.

    Some even had heart attacks on the flat at Putney Bridge or something. They are accidents nonetheless. If you crash your car against a tree whilst having a heart attack, does it not count as a crash?
    That said, there are crashes going down Leith Hill every year, some worse than others.
    Like it or not, it's down to speed... going too fast for the conditions or for your level of ability, or level of fitness... the same riders were probably fine on their Sunday ride, but had a heart attack when peer pressured to go faster and dig deeper.

    And I don't buy into the argument that if you put 15K people in the same place, someone will inevitably end up in AE or die... there is always a reason: at Glastonbury it's probably drugs and alcohol, at closed roads sportives it is speed
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    kingrollo wrote:
    They could install speed traps and disqualify riders found going at 30 mph or such...

    Priceless

    If they don't have the manpower to control "the race", then why not? It's about having some kind of deterrent... if you disqualify riders for going too fast, that type of rider will probably not sign up and you will be left with a more relaxed field of riders*

    *if that's what the organisers want
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,281
    Its not hard to hit 30mph on descents - safe or not depends where that is and the number of people around.

    It really doesn't help that the BBC have reported it as a fatality during the Velo Race - whichever way you look at it, it's a closed road event that enables riders to achieve their goals - be that completing the course, riding the whole way without putting a foot down, or hoofing it around in a chaingang.

    There are statistics that tell you in any gathering of X number of people, there will be Y deaths - no, deaths are not planned, but accidents & emergencies are expected and as far as possible, catered for.

    I don't know what the statistics are for 17000 riders each doing 100 mile rides on open roads completely independently, but, I'm pretty sure there'd be some accidents - some serious and probably a death - be that due to health or collision.

    Yes, I'm sure the organisers could try sanitise the event - nobody may exceed Zmph or ride in groups of more than 4 people - but that's not easy to police and more often than not, it's unjustified...
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    slowbike wrote:

    Yes, I'm sure the organisers could try sanitise the event - nobody may exceed Zmph or ride in groups of more than 4 people - but that's not easy to police and more often than not, it's unjustified...

    Is it unjustified? All I read for months ahead of (and after) RL100 is people complaining about those morons whizzing by at 30 mph and scaring the hell out of people and how these people cause crashes.
    Surely if you put a deterrent in place and it's well advertised, they will refrain from entering. It's the message you send out, whether that deterrent actually works on the day might be immaterial.
    You apply a zero tolerance policy on bad behaviour or you don't... if you don't then don't complain if the BBC calls it a race, because at the front that's exactly what it is
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    Interestingly (or not) someone has created a segment for the event...

    There are 350 riders on Strava who went round with a moving speed in excess of 20 mph...

    https://www.strava.com/segments/20573547?filter=overall
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,281
    slowbike wrote:

    Yes, I'm sure the organisers could try sanitise the event - nobody may exceed Zmph or ride in groups of more than 4 people - but that's not easy to police and more often than not, it's unjustified...

    Is it unjustified? All I read for months ahead of (and after) RL100 is people complaining about those morons whizzing by at 30 mph and scaring the hell out of people and how these people cause crashes.
    Surely if you put a deterrent in place and it's well advertised, they will refrain from entering. It's the message you send out, whether that deterrent actually works on the day might be immaterial.
    You apply a zero tolerance policy on bad behaviour or you don't... if you don't then don't complain if the BBC calls it a race, because at the front that's exactly what it is

    hah - I was going to spout on about how it's only a race if they publish a winner .... then googled "Velo Birmingham Results" - got the timings list - and a download link at the top right "download race results" .... bang .. ouch ... that's a foot .... :lol:
  • theboyfoldtheboyfold Posts: 201
    theboyfold wrote:

    Oh, and just for your reference. The gent who died on RL100 last year was due to having a heart attack on the way up Leith Hill, not on the way down.

    Some even had heart attacks on the flat at Putney Bridge or something. They are accidents nonetheless. If you crash your car against a tree whilst having a heart attack, does it not count as a crash?
    That said, there are crashes going down Leith Hill every year, some worse than others.
    Like it or not, it's down to speed... going too fast for the conditions or for your level of ability, or level of fitness... the same riders were probably fine on their Sunday ride, but had a heart attack when peer pressured to go faster and dig deeper.

    And I don't buy into the argument that if you put 15K people in the same place, someone will inevitably end up in AE or die... there is always a reason: at Glastonbury it's probably drugs and alcohol, at closed roads sportives it is speed

    You suggested that the crash on RL was down to bad riding. Of course you will crash when you have a heart attack, but the crash wasn't the cause of death, it's the effect of the cause of death. It's a very different definition to what you were trying to imply.

    Does peer pressure not count when you are trying to get a PR or KOM in Strava or the like? If nobody had peer pressure we would all just be on sit up and beg bikes merrily going about our business.

    You just seem to enjoy trying to pick holes in these sort of events as you don't enjoy them.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    slowbike wrote:
    slowbike wrote:

    Yes, I'm sure the organisers could try sanitise the event - nobody may exceed Zmph or ride in groups of more than 4 people - but that's not easy to police and more often than not, it's unjustified...

    Is it unjustified? All I read for months ahead of (and after) RL100 is people complaining about those morons whizzing by at 30 mph and scaring the hell out of people and how these people cause crashes.
    Surely if you put a deterrent in place and it's well advertised, they will refrain from entering. It's the message you send out, whether that deterrent actually works on the day might be immaterial.
    You apply a zero tolerance policy on bad behaviour or you don't... if you don't then don't complain if the BBC calls it a race, because at the front that's exactly what it is

    hah - I was going to spout on about how it's only a race if they publish a winner .... then googled "Velo Birmingham Results" - got the timings list - and a download link at the top right "download race results" .... bang .. ouch ... that's a foot .... :lol:

    He's probably "the winner"...
    https://www.strava.com/activities/23613 ... 9665385395
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    theboyfold wrote:

    Does peer pressure not count when you are trying to get a PR or KOM in Strava or the like? If nobody had peer pressure we would all just be on sit up and beg bikes merrily going about our business.

    Probably, but I've never seen someone having 168 bpm average for 4 hours, have you?

    https://www.strava.com/activities/23610 ... 9665398803

    The sustained level of effort that these events demand is quite unique, outside a competitive scenario
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,281
    slowbike wrote:

    hah - I was going to spout on about how it's only a race if they publish a winner .... then googled "Velo Birmingham Results" - got the timings list - and a download link at the top right "download race results" .... bang .. ouch ... that's a foot .... :lol:

    He's probably "the winner"...
    https://www.strava.com/activities/23613 ... 9665385395

    Fastest Chiptime was 04:22:09 - avg speed 22.89mph

    there were just over 650 riders at 20mph+

    Slowest riders seem to be ~9mph but there seem to be some results at over 15hrs - 6mph ...
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    slowbike wrote:

    there were just over 650 riders at 20mph+

    Good stats, that also means that on average, about half of sportive riders are on Strava
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,281
    theboyfold wrote:

    Does peer pressure not count when you are trying to get a PR or KOM in Strava or the like? If nobody had peer pressure we would all just be on sit up and beg bikes merrily going about our business.

    Probably, but I've never seen someone having 168 bpm average for 4 hours, have you?

    https://www.strava.com/activities/23610 ... 9665398803

    The sustained level of effort that these events demand is quite unique, outside a competitive scenario
    you have to look at the HR on an individual basis - I'd love to get my HR to 168bpm for 4 hours - ain't gonna happen, but then, I'm the wrong side of 30 ... (cough) - he spent 45% of the time at "Tempo" - only 32% of the time was at "Threshold"
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,281
    slowbike wrote:

    there were just over 650 riders at 20mph+

    Good stats, that also means that on average, about half of sportive riders are on Strava
    Got to be on Strava if you wanna race .... ;)
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,863
    slowbike wrote:
    slowbike wrote:

    there were just over 650 riders at 20mph+

    Good stats, that also means that on average, about half of sportive riders are on Strava
    Got to be on Strava if you wanna race .... ;)

    Lots of people around the 140-150 bpm mark for 4 hours... they are probably young and fit and all, but still, I'm pretty sure those are the same numbers you would find in a race
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