So what's with the macho culture?

chris_bass

Why do you think there are so few women on this forum?

If a young female cyclist is just starting out, comes on here to find advice and tips and then sees that middle aged men are likely to stare at their a*se when cycling in groups or clubs that'll encourage them!

Any of you lot have daughters? Would you be happy with her cycling with these guys all staring at her, giving her inappropriate comments and making her feel uncomfortable?

I'm not offended or outraged, just think it is pretty sad

kingstonian

Freelikethewind wrote:

I'm female and started road cycling six months ago. I have been pleased with my progress given I was a novice. I'm fit but technique could be better.
However recently I went out for a ride with a friend's husband. He's a bike specialist and I thought he could give me some tips etc. I've not been back on the bike since. It was a horrible down putting experience. Nothing short of a race and a chance to show off. Yeah I get it pal, you're better than me on a bike. When he told me all about the wonderfully aggressive, obsessive and macho culture in the bike club I took a mental note not to join :roll:

Slow claps...

He sounds like a right cock. But plenty of people are like that. I had a very similar experience at my club, a few years ago when I was just getting back into cycling someone posted a ride of 60-65km at an average of 19mph. The route is one I'd done before, and averaged about 19.5mph, so thought it would be perfect as I really only had 2 hrs to spare. The guy who posted the ride then decided during the ride to extend the route (without actually asking or telling me) and it became a 95km smashfest, where he and his regular training mate would blast up every hill they could find and were averaging 21mph which ended up blowing me to bits. Moral of the story is that I avoid that clown like the plague, even though I'm now a much stronger cyclist and could handle it, and I only ride with the club when I'm with people that realise if they want to prove themselves they should put a number on their back and get in a race.

ivor_pye

Shortfall wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Well I've counted at least three people on this thread expressing what can only be described as faux outrage as they see no irony in either visiting, posting pictures, or making sexual comments on "The Big Girls" thread. If you're going to give the rest of us lectures on PC then at least be consistent.

Also makes me uncomfortable, but I don't think posting pictures of people modelling their bottoms on a specific bottom related thread is the same as making inappropriate comments about a real person who has come here and started a serious thread (unless she is a troll that is)

It doesn't make me uncomfortable, it just makes me wonder how they reconcile being outraged by Ivor Pye's comments in this thread but fill their boots in another dedicated to objectifying women. I've posted stuff on the same thread myself I hasten to add, but I'm not pretending to be wounded on behalf of the OP here.

The voice of reason, I knew one would come along eventually, thank you.

CitizenLee

You're still really unfunny... but hey, carry on matron.

ivor_pye

CitizenLee wrote:

You're still really unfunny... but hey, carry on matron.

Thankfully I don't need your endorsement or back slapping from the politically correct (when it suits) to live my life.

craigus89

Ivor Pye wrote:

CitizenLee wrote:

You're still really unfunny... but hey, carry on matron.

Thankfully I don't need your endorsement or back slapping from the politically correct (when it suits) to live my life.

Your Mrs is a lucky lady!

shortfall

I have literally no moral issue with p0rn. I think the issue is that his comments are just inappropriate
Top

And you don't see any inconsistency in holding those two opinions at the same time?

shirley_basso

Shortfall wrote:

I have literally no moral issue with p0rn. I think the issue is that his comments are just inappropriate
Top

And you don't see any inconsistency in holding those two opinions at the same time?

Why should someone who enjoys looking at women who are happy to get naked means it not appropriate to do the same when someone is in sporting attire go about their business.

Imagine a male gynecologist getting a boner everytime he performwd a consultation.

In the same vein not all gays want to jump on your back and roger you.

People are able to disassociate their sex lives with their daily life

shortfall

Shirley Basso wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

I have literally no moral issue with p0rn. I think the issue is that his comments are just inappropriate
Top

And you don't see any inconsistency in holding those two opinions at the same time?

Why should someone who enjoys looking at women who are happy to get naked means it not appropriate to do the same when someone is in sporting attire go about their business.

Imagine a male gynecologist getting a boner everytime he performwd a consultation.

In the same vein not all gays want to jump on your back and roger you.

People are able to disassociate their sex lives with their daily life

Well I will have to play devil's advocate here because I don't pretend to be a crusader for the feminist cause, but I guess the argument goes that many of the young women who get lured into porn are already quite desperate and vulnerable. They are then exploited by ruthless producers who either coerce them or force them to do more and more extreme scenes and then when they've gone down that route the industry spits them out in it's relentless pursuit for new girls, leaving many of them psychologically (and physically) damaged by the whole process. Very few if any of them even make much money to compensate them for their experiences. The other argument I suppose is that because porn is all about the objectification of women it fosters negative attitudes that manifest themselves as sexist or mysoginistic behavior towards ordinary women in their daily lives. I didn't object personally to ivor Pye's remarks but to see him being lectured by some of the people who did looked like virtue signalling to me.
I don't suspect that in the real world Ivor hunts out women who are slower than him on bikes just to look at their backsides.

haydenm

Shortfall wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

I have literally no moral issue with p0rn. I think the issue is that his comments are just inappropriate
Top

And you don't see any inconsistency in holding those two opinions at the same time?

Why should someone who enjoys looking at women who are happy to get naked means it not appropriate to do the same when someone is in sporting attire go about their business.

Imagine a male gynecologist getting a boner everytime he performwd a consultation.

In the same vein not all gays want to jump on your back and roger you.

People are able to disassociate their sex lives with their daily life

Well I will have to play devil's advocate here because I don't pretend to be a crusader for the feminist cause, but I guess the argument goes that many of the young women who get lured into porn are already quite desperate and vulnerable. They are then exploited by ruthless producers who either coerce them or force them to do more and more extreme scenes and then when they've gone down that route the industry spits them out in it's relentless pursuit for new girls, leaving many of them psychologically (and physically) damaged by the whole process. Very few if any of them even make much money to compensate them for their experiences. The other argument I suppose is that because porn is all about the objectification of women it fosters negative attitudes that manifest themselves as sexist or mysoginistic behavior towards ordinary women in their daily lives. I didn't object personally to ivor Pye's remarks but to see him being lectured by some of the people who did looked like virtue signalling to me.
I don't suspect that in the real world Ivor hunts out women who are slower than him on bikes just to look at their backsides.

Very good points, I guess I do have a problem with the porn industry as a whole (and all the male ones committing suicide) but bashing one out to an FHM centrefold of Mariah Carey just isn't the same as making rude comments to a 'normal' person. My moral issue with porn isn't that I shouldn't be objectifying women, more that there is a problem with exploitation. I essentially don't have an issue with finding attractive people attractive, I have an issue with people being rude to people in a sexist manner. Your point about fostering sexist or misogynistic behaviour would be fair if I was the one making inappropriate comments about a female cyclist, luckily I find it easy to keep the two seperate.

People seem to assume that being 'politically correct' means you need to kill all of your sexual urges and never speak to anyone for fear of causing offence, but really you just have to consider not being rude to people. I'm really not a feminist or a social justice warrior, but it's unfortunate the debate and buzzwords have been so badly hijacked by extremists in the past that I can't say 'I don't think this is appropriate' without people assuming you're some sort of bra burning militant. Speak to any of my friends and they will tell you I have an extremely dark sense of humor, that doesn't mean I would make the same jokes to all people.

As you say, I'm sure Ivor Pye isn't a sexual deviant, I just didn't find his joke funny and it would likely put my GF off using this forum.

craigus89

HaydenM wrote:

As you say, I'm sure Ivor Pye isn't a sexual deviant, I just didn't find his joke funny and it would likely put my GF off using this forum.

It puts me off wanting to use the forum, let alone any women who may come on here looking for advice.

If I wanted to hear some of the sh1te spouted in this thread I'd be down the local Wetherspoons.

slowbike

Craigus89 wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

As you say, I'm sure Ivor Pye isn't a sexual deviant, I just didn't find his joke funny and it would likely put my GF off using this forum.

It puts me off wanting to use the forum, let alone any women who may come on here looking for advice.

If I wanted to hear some of the sh1te spouted in this thread I'd be down the local Wetherspoons.

It puts you off?! One person in one thread posting what some consider to be in bad taste ... if you find this one post or even thread distasteful then surely you're mature enough to move on? It's a bit like the bottom bracket group - if you don't like most of whats being posted there - don't read it.

bompington

Slowbike wrote:

It puts you off?! One person in one thread posting what some consider to be in bad taste ... if you find this one post or even thread distasteful then surely you're mature enough to move on? It's a bit like the bottom bracket group - if you don't like most of whats being posted there - don't read it.

Ah yes, the old "if you don't like it you can go" defence :?

slowbike

bompington wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

It puts you off?! One person in one thread posting what some consider to be in bad taste ... if you find this one post or even thread distasteful then surely you're mature enough to move on? It's a bit like the bottom bracket group - if you don't like most of whats being posted there - don't read it.

Ah yes, the old "if you don't like it you can go" defence :?

I'm not defending what was said - I didn't find it offensive but nor did I find it funny - I just despair when people get all up in arms over one person posting something that some others find inappropriate.

I ride with a few women who quite frequently spout out sexist comments and jokes - and don't take offence at the "bloke jokes" directed back - difference there though is that we all know each other - it's somewhat different on a forum where we have the informal pub situation but mostly without actually knowing the person on the end of the keyboard. Simplest way is not to take anything that anyone posts too seriously and if you don't like what they post then ignore or block them - pretty much the same way in the pub - you'd just walk away to a different conversation ...

craigus89

Slowbike wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

As you say, I'm sure Ivor Pye isn't a sexual deviant, I just didn't find his joke funny and it would likely put my GF off using this forum.

It puts me off wanting to use the forum, let alone any women who may come on here looking for advice.

If I wanted to hear some of the sh1te spouted in this thread I'd be down the local Wetherspoons.

It puts you off?! One person in one thread posting what some consider to be in bad taste ... if you find this one post or even thread distasteful then surely you're mature enough to move on? It's a bit like the bottom bracket group - if you don't like most of whats being posted there - don't read it.

Just have a think about the context and the path this thread has taken. It's not the content itself that puts me off, its the cringe worthy comment made by one person and then the debate that erupts around it that makes me want to distance myself from it and puts me off 'socialising' on a forum with people who are like that.

Maybe you don't have the same reaction, I know if I am with a group of people and someone says something stupid I often feel awkward, not because I am offended by it but because other people in the group may be or it is just generally in poor taste.

This isn't bottom bracket, it's likely people may stumble onto this thread when they are browsing the forum looking for info or deciding whether or not to post. I would rather the forum was a helpful place for all kinds of people to come and get information about bikes, cycling etc without weird, letchy comments being made. Whether you think it is acceptable behaviour or not is not really relevant. There is no doubting that 99% of women who may come across this thread would just think everyone on here are just a bunch of misogynistic tossers, and you couldn't blame them for that, whether their conclusion is correct or not.

imposter2.0

Craigus89 wrote:

There is no doubting that 99% of women who may come across this thread would just think everyone on here are just a bunch of misogynistic tossers, and you couldn't blame them for that, whether their conclusion is correct or not.

In which case, they should join-up and challenge the people posting that kind of stuff directly. How many of them will do that?

Not condoning anyone's behaviour here, just saying that unless unacceptable behaviour (of any sort) is challenged, it continues to happen...

CitizenLee

Imposter wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

There is no doubting that 99% of women who may come across this thread would just think everyone on here are just a bunch of misogynistic tossers, and you couldn't blame them for that, whether their conclusion is correct or not.

In which case, they should join-up and challenge the people posting that kind of stuff directly. How many of them will do that?

Not condoning anyone's behaviour here, just saying that unless unacceptable behaviour (of any sort) is challenged, it continues to happen...

I don't disagree, but those of us who have challenged it in this particular thread have been called snowflakes, liberals, virtue-signallers, the PC-bragade etc etc. Yawn. Personally I really don't give a sh!t what some random on the internet thinks of me or calls me, but I can see why it would put people off participating in forum discussions.

I've said for years that this place is awful for new members... be them male, female or whatever else people want to identify as these days. The lack of moderators certainly doesn't help.

craigus89

CitizenLee wrote:

I don't disagree, but those of us who have challenged it in this particular thread have been called snowflakes, liberals, virtue-signallers, the PC-bragade etc etc. Yawn. Personally I really don't give a sh!t what some random on the internet thinks of me or calls me, but I can see why it would put people off participating in forum discussions.

This exactly.

And Imposter, I agree that it would be best if everyone called it out. But not everyone feels that they are able to speak up and challenge things, as we've seen over the last year or so in the news.

By no means am I equating posting silly comments on the internet to that, but it would be nice if people gave a bit of thought to these things and 'kept up' rather than sounding like my granddad "oh, can't we call them coloured anymore?".

That behaviour may have been socially acceptable 10 years ago, but it's not now. And if it is in your group of friends then you may want to expand your horizons a bit (not you Imposter, 'you' generally)

veronese68

Slowbike wrote:

It's a bit like the bottom bracket group - if you don't like most of whats being posted there - don't read it.

To be fair, they're all idiots so I can see why people would avoid it. Obviously I include myself in that.
Most people will adjust their behaviour or language according to the company they are in. The Bottom Bracket and even more the Crud Catcher are for more off topic and as it says in the rules more risqué or adult content, within reason. This is posted in Road General so should be held to a higher standard. Presumably people wouldn't act the same way the first time they met a girlfriend's parents as when they are in a pub with their mates. This is assuming they manage to get a girlfriend of course.

slowbike

Veronese68 wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

It's a bit like the bottom bracket group - if you don't like most of whats being posted there - don't read it.

To be fair, they're all idiots so I can see why people would avoid it. Obviously I include myself in that.
Most people will adjust their behaviour or language according to the company they are in. The Bottom Bracket and even more the Crud Catcher are for more off topic and as it says in the rules more risqué or adult content, within reason. This is posted in Road General so should be held to a higher standard. Presumably people wouldn't act the same way the first time they met a girlfriend's parents as when they are in a pub with their mates. This is assuming they manage to get a girlfriend of course.

I dunno - I know a few blokes who seem complete dicks all the time ... I mostly try and avoid them ...

We're now spending more time and effort discussing the merits of calling someone out on a dickish post than the OP did on her calling out of a dickish riding partner - where everyone seemed to agree with her. The dickish comment hardly warranted more than a couple of negative replies, let alone people getting all upset and thinking about leaving the forum over ...


Should the dickish comment have been moderated away? Nah - it wasn't _that_ bad and deserved to be called out - hopefully the poster will consider what he's posting where in the future.

veronese68

Slowbike wrote:

Should the dickish comment have been moderated away? Nah - it wasn't _that_ bad and deserved to be called out - hopefully the poster will consider what he's posting where in the future.

Agree on the first points, but I don't think there's any chance of him considering what he's posting. Strikes me as a purely trolling account so probably a sad little attention seeker that wanted to cause a reaction.

slowbike

Veronese68 wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Should the dickish comment have been moderated away? Nah - it wasn't _that_ bad and deserved to be called out - hopefully the poster will consider what he's posting where in the future.

Agree on the first points, but I don't think there's any chance of him considering what he's posting. Strikes me as a purely trolling account so probably a sad little attention seeker that wanted to cause a reaction.

then the "up in arms" reaction may lead to similar comments in the future.... ?

what's the phrase ...

Don't feed the Troll ...

Which leads right back to where I started - ignore it.

veronese68

Slowbike wrote:

Don't feed the Troll ...
Which leads right back to where I started - ignore it.

Agree in principle, but sometimes I get bored and can't resist poking them.
Plus there is the point of not letting some things go without challenging them, this place would look even more unwelcoming if we let all the stupid comments like that go.

darkhairedlord

go back out on a ride with him and suggest a coffee stop when you are both miles away.
He will insist on going in to buy the coffee while you "get your breath back!"
Now is your chance to release the quick-link on the chain (there's a link for that, pardon the pun) and chuck his chain in a ditch.
Ride home and never speak of it again.

darkhairedlord

DeVlaeminck wrote:

PoweredByIdris wrote:

By any chance, is your friend's husband this guy? The man telling the Alpe d'Huez QOM that she shouldn't expect guys to wait for her at the top of a climb unless she accepts a push?

https://twitter.com/BaseTrainCosta/status/1026532724130172928

:roll:

Interesting that you think that is a guy - it's actually a woman from Sheffield making the point that on a group ride if you are struggling it's not unusual to get a helping push.

Edit - should add I am not advocating pushing women or others up climbs unless you know it's wanted! It's not that unusual for strong riders to give others a shove though - some on that twitter thread seem to think it's unheard of.

CitizenLee

darkhairedlord wrote:

go back out on a ride with him and suggest a coffee stop when you are both miles away.
He will insist on going in to buy the coffee while you "get your breath back!"
Now is your chance to release the quick-link on the chain (there's a link for that, pardon the pun) and chuck his chain in a ditch.
Ride home and never speak of it again.

Nice, I do love a bit of well deserved fuckery!