Nice frameset please...

handful

964Cup wrote:

Here's the Excel outside Enigma's factory:


and here's the single-speed version:

Lovely bike but I think the OP was set on disc brakes.

skyeflyguy

mellowmiles wrote:

sorry to bump this thread but how are you getting on with your search?! I'm in a similar boat but more set on Ti. I (read 'think i') have now narrowed it down to 3
1) Laverack R Jack
2) Reilly Spectre
3) Mason Aspect

have you manage to test ride any of the above or have you gone away from Ti?

thanks

T

I moved to Ti last year and love it.
I don't think you would be disappointed by any of the frames you have listed. I looked at 2 of those and the Laverack really stood out for me but unfortunately outside my budget.
In the end I had a frame custom built through Burls. They also supplied Enve forks and a King headset at a very competetive price.
if I knew how I would post a pic of the finished bike. The geometery is quite racy and I dont feel Im missing anything by not riding carbon.

arlowood

skyeflyguy wrote:

.
if I knew how I would post a pic of the finished bike.

Just upload your pic to any free web hosting service such as Flickr, Imgur, Google images etc. Make sure you set your profile to "Public" or whatever is needed to allow others to view your images. Also avoid Photobucket as it now charges a fee to allow public access

Once the image is on the hosting site all you need to do is right click on the image and select "copy image address"

Open up a posting window on the forum and select the [Img][/img]

964cup

handful wrote:

Lovely bike but I think the OP was set on disc brakes.

Engima do disc as well, in a variety of framesets including the Excel and Etape, and also more gravel-orientated stuff. What's nice is the collaborative design process around the frame - they can do a full fit, or work from the dimensions and contact points of your existing bike. I was there for a good couple of hours in all, with no sense of being rushed. You get to see the factory and paintshop as well.

Frame build did take about 3.5 months, but it was worth the wait.

Frames built from raw tube stock in the UK:




Some amazing paintjobs - and they paint for other builders too:


...and yes, they do disc-braked bikes too:

handful

I knew they did disc brakes as well, just didn't know about the Excel. They also seem to favour external routing for some reason.I know there is additional work with internal but it looks so much better IMO.

964cup

I'm sure they could do internal if you ask, although I specifically requested external for ease of maintenance. I think internal only makes sense on aero bikes (or di2), TBH. I do have internal dynamo cabling on my Etape, mind you.

handful

I'm going to go the etap route myself I think so routing doesn't really come into it for gear cables but I like the hydraulic brake hose to be internal for a really clean look and no issues with maintenance there that I can think of. Maybe I won't rule out Enogma, they do look nice. I see the Excel doesn't have mudguard mounts and even then only takes 28mm tyres. I want 28s and the ability to fit guards so would probably be looking at Etape or Evoke.

mellowmiles

Thanks for the posts guys.

@964 - Can i just say how lovely the Excel looks! That's another thing i thought when going Ti. I don't know many carbon frames that won't look dated in 10 years compared to Ti or steel i guess.
I'm in 2 minds about Enigma. great pedigree and due to my odd proportions went for an Echo a few years back. They said it wasn't a problem and used the fit for my current bike but the frame actually came up too small and after a minor crash decided to just cut my losses and move on. They're not totally out - seeing that excel has definitely thrown them back in the mix - but i'm probably also thinking of just trying a different British brand if possible. Living in Newcastle (tyne) does make it difficult to pop in and try some sizes

the excel is 6/4 right? did you have any concerns about it being more brittle than 3/2? or is that just a myth? i am incapable of dropping watt bombs i think my worry was the (admittedly small chance of) corrosion ...

@handful - yup think you're on the money with the options there and totally write about the price of the mason - i'm shuddering at the thought and wondering that they offer over the others so that's lower down on the list -but Dom seems nice and communication is good. not been in direct contact with reilly but heard similar comments elsewhere. an LBS sort of nearby do stock their stuff so might make them easier to deal with but you kind of want to speak to the builders directly about the frame i guess. maybe just being to0 pedantic. thanks for the input on what they're like as don't think i'll have a chance to see any of these before ordering unless they post test frames... which i doubt they would!
did you get an inkling whether you would've gone for the spectre or gradient? do they look/feel much different ??
thanks

handful

@mellowmiles

They are quite similar, the main difference is obviously the amount of tyre clearance on the Gradient. I think I've ruled the Gradient out, would go Spectre if I decided to get a Reilly. I only paid them a fairly flying visit because I was visiting someone in Brighton so didn't ride either. I asked them to price up a Spectre with a Di2 build and also a Sram etap build and they said they would email it to me but I never heard from them again. Also, I did email them a couple of days before I went down there to let them know and I never got a reply to that either. On the day I went I was ringing and ringing because I was having trouble finding their workshop and I was on the verge of giving up when they picked up. To be fair they seemed very busy which suggests they are selling well but not really an excuse.

James at Vaaru on the other hand was extremely responsive and helpful. They are probably top of my ever changing list as things stand but I may still change my mind again yet!

964cup

mellowmiles wrote:

Thanks for the posts guys.

@964 - Can i just say how lovely the Excel looks! That's another thing i thought when going Ti. I don't know many carbon frames that won't look dated in 10 years compared to Ti or steel i guess.
I'm in 2 minds about Enigma. great pedigree and due to my odd proportions went for an Echo a few years back. They said it wasn't a problem and used the fit for my current bike but the frame actually came up too small and after a minor crash decided to just cut my losses and move on. They're not totally out - seeing that excel has definitely thrown them back in the mix - but i'm probably also thinking of just trying a different British brand if possible. Living in Newcastle (tyne) does make it difficult to pop in and try some sizes

the excel is 6/4 right? did you have any concerns about it being more brittle than 3/2? or is that just a myth? i am incapable of dropping watt bombs i think my worry was the (admittedly small chance of) corrosion ...

Thanks for the kind words.

WRT your proportions, suggest you get a bike fit and a custom frameset. They can work from any fitter's measurements, but if I were you i wouldn't miss out on the factory visit.

WRT frame material, yes, the Excel (and the custom single-speed as well) is 6Al/4V. It gives a lighter frame and, IMO, a nicer ride (at least compared to the Etape). I've done about 8,000km on my Excel, including Liege-Bastogne-Liege, in all weathers and on all sorts of surfaces. I'm 80kg and have about 1600w in the sprint. I haven't had a moment's worry at any time and it's as good as new with no sign of corrosion or any other problems. It's as stiff as any of my carbon bikes to sprint with, but about 1000x as comfortable to ride.

964cup

handful wrote:

I'm going to go the etap route myself I think so routing doesn't really come into it for gear cables but I like the hydraulic brake hose to be internal for a really clean look and no issues with maintenance there that I can think of. Maybe I won't rule out Enogma, they do look nice. I see the Excel doesn't have mudguard mounts and even then only takes 28mm tyres. I want 28s and the ability to fit guards so would probably be looking at Etape or Evoke.

When I had the singlespeed built, they asked if I wanted mudguard mounts or more tyre clearance. I said no, but it was on the table. The whole point of their signature programme is that you can pretty well have whatever you want in terms of geometry, frame material, braze-ons and so forth, and it's really not expensive compared to other custom Ti frames - most of which are neither built in the UK, nor use anything like as complex a tube set.

Of course I have become something of an Enigma fanboi and your mileage may vary...

vinnymarsden

I built up my dream bike last year...and like you was torn between the frame...I was all set for the Enigma Evade in Ti...but went for the Giant TCR Advanced Pro..lovely frame..very racy, but comfy too...BUT part of me still wishes I had gone for the Ti version... the choice is vast/confusing, but all in all im happy with what I built...and that's the important thing.I still look at it and want to go ride it, which is the acid test I think!!

wastelander

Here's another company to think about - Somec

http://www.somec.com/en/collection/titanium_frames

Lovely Italian Ti in all it's glory. I have the older Titano which has a Columbus 12k rear triangle in conjunction with the Ti tubeset and it's a thing of timeless beauty and comfort. I'm sure that this would be an excellent base for your build.

mellowmiles

handful wrote:

@mellowmiles

They are quite similar, the main difference is obviously the amount of tyre clearance on the Gradient. I think I've ruled the Gradient out, would go Spectre if I decided to get a Reilly. I only paid them a fairly flying visit because I was visiting someone in Brighton so didn't ride either. I asked them to price up a Spectre with a Di2 build and also a Sram etap build and they said they would email it to me but I never heard from them again. Also, I did email them a couple of days before I went down there to let them know and I never got a reply to that either. On the day I went I was ringing and ringing because I was having trouble finding their workshop and I was on the verge of giving up when they picked up. To be fair they seemed very busy which suggests they are selling well but not really an excuse.

James at Vaaru on the other hand was extremely responsive and helpful. They are probably top of my ever changing list as things stand but I may still change my mind again yet!

thanks for the reply. i'll give Vaaru a look. just been looking at a couple of videos with their frames the guy does seem enthusiastic

MM

drlodge

With all that said, I still think a Rourke 953 (stainless steel) would be a viable option. And if your wallet will stretch...try Ricky Feather.

schlepcycling

How about a Mason Resolution Ultegra Di2 Hydro https://masoncycles.cc/products/resolution-ultegra-di2-hydro they also do an Etap version https://masoncycles.cc/products/resolution-red-etap but that's over your £5k budget.

mellowmiles

drlodge wrote:

With all that said, I still think a Rourke 953 (stainless steel) would be a viable option. And if your wallet will stretch...try Ricky Feather.

Oh man! so many options!! never heard of this Feather chap but he also sounds good. Doesn't seem to do a lot of Ti work but stainless might be interesting...

rdt

mellowmiles wrote:

sorry to bump this thread but how are you getting on with your search?! I'm in a similar boat but more set on Ti. I (read 'think i') have now narrowed it down to 3
1) Laverack R Jack
2) Reilly Spectre
3) Mason Aspect

have you manage to test ride any of the above or have you gone away from Ti?

Just spotted this post...


Having looked at the various options, I eventually concluded that only the Aspect could tick all my boxes. Unfortunately, that bumped it up to ~£7k, which is a lot of money, but I could pay that if I wanted to.

IMO the beauty of spending time researching stuff is that it lets thing percolate away in your mind and your subconscious. One issue that I kept coming back to is that I don't really wish to own a bike that cost me £7k because it means I'd need to think more about security and accidental damage than I do currently. I place a big premium on minimising hassle in life, and a £7k bike unavoidably brings extra stuff to deal with. Expensive possessions can often come to own you rather than the other way around.

And £7k for a bike doesn't quite sit quite right with me - it just seems too spendy. I know in my heart that the uplift in cycling "joy" it would give me over my current bike setup wouldn't really justify the cost.

The best money I've ever spent on cycling has been from trips I've gone on. So, what I've done is notionally allocate the bike replacement fund to a bunch of fancy cycling holidays over the next few years, starting with a Channel to Med across France next summer. Maybe the Italian alps. A few big trips I'll remember for a long time, punctuated with some ever-reliable Mallorcan riding.

Revisit the new bike idea in a few more years, by which time what I might've bought now will be old hat anyway

mellowmiles

rdt wrote:

mellowmiles wrote:

sorry to bump this thread but how are you getting on with your search?! I'm in a similar boat but more set on Ti. I (read 'think i') have now narrowed it down to 3
1) Laverack R Jack
2) Reilly Spectre
3) Mason Aspect

have you manage to test ride any of the above or have you gone away from Ti?

Just spotted this post...


Having looked at the various options, I eventually concluded that only the Aspect could tick all my boxes. Unfortunately, that bumped it up to ~£7k, which is a lot of money, but I could pay that if I wanted to.

IMO the beauty of spending time researching stuff is that it lets thing percolate away in your mind and your subconscious. One issue that I kept coming back to is that I don't really wish to own a bike that cost me £7k because it means I'd need to think more about security and accidental damage than I do currently. I place a big premium on minimising hassle in life, and a £7k bike unavoidably brings extra stuff to deal with. Expensive possessions can often come to own you rather than the other way around.

And £7k for a bike doesn't quite sit quite right with me - it just seems too spendy. I know in my heart that the uplift in cycling "joy" it would give me over my current bike setup wouldn't really justify the cost.

The best money I've ever spent on cycling has been from trips I've gone on. So, what I've done is notionally allocate the bike replacement fund to a bunch of fancy cycling holidays over the next few years, starting with a Channel to Med across France next summer. Maybe the Italian alps. A few big trips I'll remember for a long time, punctuated with some ever-reliable Mallorcan riding.

Revisit the new bike idea in a few more years, by which time what I might've bought now will be old hat anyway

Thanks for the response... I think i'm slowly narrowing it down to the Aspect vs Laverack -the Feather suggestion is making rack my brain but i'll have to park it for now with another project! but agree with your thoughts on the frame price. I don't change bikes too often (still have my 200 pound eBay Raleigh clubman that was my first adult bike from 5 years ago) so longer term may get good use out of it.... but yes still a lot to splash out. Its my 40th in 2 years maybe that might be the final push i need! Sadly i won't be allowed on any cycling holidays by the Mrs so that's not really an alternative i could explore. but might come in handy for LEJOG, C2C and C2C2C plans i'm cooking up!

Tailwinds

rdt

mellowmiles wrote:

Thanks for the response... I think i'm slowly narrowing it down to the Aspect vs Laverack -the Feather suggestion is making rack my brain but i'll have to park it for now with another project! but agree with your thoughts on the frame price. I don't change bikes too often (still have my 200 pound eBay Raleigh clubman that was my first adult bike from 5 years ago) so longer term may get good use out of it.... but yes still a lot to splash out. Its my 40th in 2 years maybe that might be the final push i need! Sadly i won't be allowed on any cycling holidays by the Mrs so that's not really an alternative i could explore. but might come in handy for LEJOG, C2C and C2C2C plans i'm cooking up!

Tailwinds

I'm not fond of following the herd and there's a bit of whiff of it around Mason. NB this is not a criticism of the end product - the frames, the bikes - but largely a consequence of the marketing, which'll have inflated the price, and somewhat puts me off.

I've not previously looked at Feather or J.Laverack...

The pictures of the Feather bikes are some of the nicest painted frames I've ever seen. There's some artistic talent at work, and it's great to see steel frame finishes that don't look like they've just been teleported in from the 50s, 60s or 70s as many others appear to. It's almost enough for me to reconsider getting a steel framed bike - almost but not quite!

R J.ACK Disc looks interesting. I believe there's a "review" in the latest Cycling Plus FWIW.

agnello

Make one from Colombus HSS/Spirit

https://thebicycleacademy.org/

handful

agnello wrote:

Make one from Colombus HSS/Spirit

https://thebicycleacademy.org/

Reilly do a frame building course as well.

https://www.reillycycleworks.com/pages/frame-school

rdt

Bit of an update to my "diary of a (potential) bike purchaser".....

Up-thread I wrote:

The best money I've ever spent on cycling has been from trips I've gone on. So, what I've done is notionally allocate the bike replacement fund to a bunch of fancy cycling holidays over the next few years, starting with a Channel to Med across France next summer. Maybe the Italian alps. A few big trips I'll remember for a long time, punctuated with some ever-reliable Mallorcan riding.

Well, I've continued to spend money on bike trips rather than a new bike and have already lined up a big spendy trip next year(!) but still have half an eye on another bike.....

Vortice wrote:

Just get a Rose x-lite 6 disc ultegra Di2 and be done with it. Money left over for a cheap winter bike.

Funny you should mention Rose (albeit 14 months ago!) - been looking into them after a fella at a local club got one - seems a nice bike and good value. I think his is the x-lite four. For fun I've been spec'ing up an x-lite four disc Ultegra Di2 with the bits and bobs I'd want, for under £4.5k. Add 4iiii power meter and extras and I'm still under 5k. That's a nicer number than 7.5k (for a similarly spec'd Aspect) and I reckon I could live with one of those.

I'm still undecided about frame material and my earlier clear preference for Ti is beginning to wane a little...

I'm very slowly beginning to be swayed by the appeal of a lighter and more aero carbon frame. Sure, aero frames all look the same now as manufacturers settle on similar optimal designs, but it's a look I quite like, and I'm mainly interested in buying the best tool for the job with form following function. Some of the Ti frames are beginning to look a touch old-htr/pedestrian in comparison - heresy!!! My main concern with carbon (and the paintjob!) would be longevity: getting tatty after several years' usage vs. a titanium frame that might handle a few knocks a bit better. Carbon frames and the product cycles they're on make them seem more like consumables, intended to be replaced after N years, unlike "keeper" Ti frames...

I rode a carbon Orbea Orca M20 hire bike with carbon Cosmic Pro SL wheels for 5 days a couple of weeks ago. It felt fine, fitted OK, rolled well on the flat, but seemed a little bit less comfortable (more road buzz), and was a slightly less racy geometry (bit higher front end) that my current bike, and overall seemed no better, just slightly different.

What I'd like to be able to do would be to perform my own back-to-back comparisons of various bikes and components (vs. my own current). If I could take my time doing that, I'm sure I'd settle on something that I liked the look of and the feel of and would have my credit card out within a few days. But I can't: the bikes I might be interested in are at the four ends of the country or online making meaningful test runs all but impossible. The reviews by journos I read seem ever more like hi-fi reviews, full of BS that leave me very sceptical of the writer's claims: entertaining maybe but not really useful for making decisions.

With so many choices available, many very pricey, but nothing absolutely compelling, you can see why I'm still riding the same old bike

Still appreciate people's input though!

shirley_basso

Have you considered used? I bought a c59 di2 with zipp 303s for 3k 2 years ago

rdt

Shirley Basso wrote:

Have you considered used? I bought a c59 di2 with zipp 303s for 3k 2 years ago

No.

Great way to grab a bargain but too many stumbling blocks for me:

1. Would likely 'never' find a fully spec'd bike that was just what I wanted, so would have to sell bits / buy other bits, which is far too much hassle for easy-life me.

2. Frameset-only would lose me the benefit of a manufacturer's groupset etc discounts.

3. But most of all, unless it was completely immaculate and from someone I knew personally, I just wouldn't.

Not knocking the suggestion, but not for me for this "project".

shirley_basso

Fair enough.

stebbo99

Custom build in Steel by a master craftsman. Varonha Franeworks

https://www.varonha.co.uk/

brokenbanjo

What about the Kinesis Racelight GF Ti, comes with all the gubbins you could want, including Di2 and mudguard/rack mounts. I’d have got one, but could only afford the Alu one.

https://www.merlincycles.com/kinesis-racelight-gf-ti-disc-brake-frameset-108517.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-GB&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Road+Bike+Frames&ucpo=45686&gclid=Cj0KCQjwi7DtBRCLARIsAGCJWBoHUOXzNszN5L8KLDRUsedBGbZUBEcH_PomqOmDi29kboXcm_mz7NoaAuH3EALw_wcB

arlowood

rdt wrote:

Funny you should mention Rose (albeit 14 months ago!) - been looking into them after a fella at a local club got one - seems a nice bike and good value. I think his is the x-lite four. For fun I've been spec'ing up an x-lite four disc Ultegra Di2 with the bits and bobs I'd want, for under £4.5k. Add 4iiii power meter and extras and I'm still under 5k. That's a nicer number than 7.5k (for a similarly spec'd Aspect) and I reckon I could live with one of those.

You mention the difficulty of making a real world decision on the Rose which is available online only.

I was in a similar position to you just over a year ago but bit the bullet and ordered a Rose X-Lite Four. However I was committing less financially than you would be as I went for the 105 rim braked version at just under £2K. I have not regretted the purchase and think the X-Lite 4 is a great frame. My finished bike without pedals was 6.9kg and it has proved to be a smooth and comfortable ride. Even the rim braked frame can take 28mm Michelin Pro4 Endurance tyres with ease and they size up closer to 30mm when fitted.

If you live anywhere close to Nottingham then I would be happy to let you have a test ride. I live about 10 miles south of the city. My frame is the 55cm incarnation. Drop me a PM if you're interested



BTW the wheels are not the standard ones as purchased - I swapped those for some handbuilts I was using on me previous bike

rdt

I appreciate all the suggestions, and have looked into every one suggested so far!

Thanks arlowood for your very generous offer, but size-wise I'd need a Rose 62cm. Someone local has a 62 so I might at some point be able to get a try out on that.

Just looking again at my first two posts in this thread, and all those points still stand, except I could expand the budget if required.

One key thing is this new bike would be used year round - there'd be no separate winter bike. My current road bike would move home to another location (rellies) I visit regularly. I say "year round " but I do little road-riding in the winter, and only in fair weather, so it wouldn't be caned but I would hope to keep it for ~10 years so I am after something that's pretty robust and won't start looking look tatty 5 or more years down the line...

So, despite the strong allure of lightweight aero carbon frames that I mentioned only y'day, my sensible side says that a Ti frame without paint to chip and with a "cockpit" using standard off-the-shelf vs. any manufacturer-specific bits still makes a lot of practical sense bearing in mind how how I'd use the bike and how long I'd want to keep the frame. Compromises!

Despite my wariness of the flavour-of-the-month(year) mood music surrounding Mason, I don't doubt that an Aspect would give me a very fine bike, that ticks as many or more boxes than anything else I've yet seen, and I keep finding myself re-visiting the website. 6.7k for an Aspect to my spec, plus a 4iiii PM = 7k, which is lots of money for a bike!

I've yet to see one in the flesh still, let alone take a ride on one, so I probably need to sort that out, scratch that itch and rule it either in or out. Shame I now live the other end of the country from them!