Nice frameset please...

rdt
rdt Posts: 869
edited October 2019 in Road buying advice
I'm looking to build (have built) a nice bike in the next 12 months to last me around a dozen years, and to be a sole bike:
    * Bike budget ~5k, probably Di2 Ultegra, through axle, disc brakes, internal cable routing, a crank-based PM as a nice-have * Guessing this gives a frameset budget in the 1-2k range(?), but I'm flexible (up & down pricewise) as I'll be keeping the bike a while * Hidden mudguard mounts on frame a definite nice-have for the crappy months of the year, although me being afraid of the rain it won't see much use in ropey weather if I can avoid it... * Decent tyre clearance * No prejudices really on frame material; lighter is better than heavier all else being equal but not a critical factor; open to ideas * Won't be raced, used for road-only (no gravel for me), used largely on hilly terrain, 1-4 hour rides in the main; some short audaxes & freeloading a sportive occasionally; bit of an all-rounder * Needs to look quite nice, no gaudy shell-suit colour schemes or shouty decals, classy and discrete preferred, something that won't rapidly date once fashion changes * Always liked brushed titanium finishes, but don't have an opinion on Ti as a frame material

Probably forgotten a bunch of stuff. Input gratefully received... :D
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Comments

  • jgsi
    jgsi Posts: 5,062
    Go bespoke.. eg Rourkie... well they are close to my heart,others are available.
    will last a damn sight longer than 12 years, if you look after it.
    People will always love yur bike and pester you at cafe stops.
  • arlowood
    arlowood Posts: 2,561
    Have a look at the Fairlight Strael

    https://fairlightcycles.com/strael/stra ... cba1185463

    £900 for the frameset. 853 steel with carbon fork.

    Gets a great review when built up with Ultegra Di2

    https://road.cc/content/review/240016-f ... -strael-20
  • Rourke stainless
    Trek,,,, too cool for school ,, apparently
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    Lots of sweeeeet ti out there at your budget.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • moonshine
    moonshine Posts: 1,021
    Cervelo C3?
  • akh
    akh Posts: 206
    With that kind of budget there are more bikes you can afford than can't. I think you might be overwhelmed with suggestions and options unless you can be more specific with your requirements.

    What kind of geometry are you after? Pointless recommending a Trek Domane if you're after a a slammed front end.

    Not that I'm in any position to do the same, but I'd pick Ultegra R8070 instead of R9070, and ditch the power meter unless I was really looking to use it for a training plan, then put that money back into the frame. You can almost afford any bike available now, unless you want to go mad with super expensive carbon wheels eating a big chunk of that budget.
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    A bit more info: I've been riding the same 2 bikes for ever, both aluminium with the same compact geometry, a look I like. My main bike's frameset is this:

    spAllezExpert20_400-1536-80.jpg

    For 20 years I've not ridden any bikes other than these two, so don't having anything to compare to. I've recently stuck 25mm Conti 4000s on them, running low-ish pressures, and the main bike (ally but with carbon seat stays, fork, bars & tons of carbon seatpost showing + Kysrium Elite S) feels pretty plush to me. The fit is good due to an Adrian Timmis fitting years ago.

    The aim is largely to build a better version (in every area) of what I already have, taking advantages of technology and thinking that's moved on, to last me maybe a decade: hence electronic shifting (Di2), flat mount hydraulic discs, thru axles, internal cable routing, room to run 28-30mm tubeless tyres, maybe Hunt 30 carbon wheels, probably a PM, maybe discrete mudguard mounts. Current bike in an XL weighs 8.5-8.6kg inc seat, pedals, cages, and I'd be disappointed if the new one weighed more.

    I don't mind paying up for stuff that does a better job, or that I like the look of (which is important for something I'll own for years). With the componentry, I have some appreciation of where it's worth spending extra money to get better stuff or stuff that appeals to me; but frames seem to be an especially subjective area, and one where I haven't a clue. Hence the question!
  • akh
    akh Posts: 206
    I don't think you'll struggle to get something lighter than what you currently have, unless maybe you go for a steel frame. I don't think any off-the-shelf bike is going to come with a power meter, so you might as subtract the cost of the one you want from your budget if you're set on one. Similarly, if you're set on those Hunt wheels (which I'm sure are good), you're probably better going for a self/custom build, as you risk losing money trying to sell of the wheels the bike comes with. Most bikes in the budget range you're looking at will come with fairly expensive wheels that will be a significant part of the cost.

    I'm not sure what the older Allez is like geometry wise, but I believe they're kinda racey? So that's the likes of the Trek Domane, Cannondale Synapse, and Specialized Roubaix out.

    I'm guessing you know the stack and reach you want from the bike fit, so double check you can achieve that in the frame you want. Quite a few high end bikes have integrated aero front ends now. They may look slick, but changing components to fine tune fit might be awkward.

    No one knows the future, but you may be best avoiding any proprietary standards, or manufacture specific spare parts, if you want to ride the bike for >10 years. Trek's BB90 bottom bracket uses a none standard bearing size for example, who knows what availability will be like in a decade. BB30 on the other hand uses standard bearings that you'll be able to buy from any industrial parts catalogue (check out the likes of NTN, SKF for very high quality bearings).

    If the geometry is right, have you considered the Mason bikes? The same people that make Hunt wheels I believe. They look stunning and are easily within budget.

    https://masoncycles.cc/
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    rdt wrote:
    A bit more info: I've been riding the same 2 bikes for ever, both aluminium with the same compact geometry, a look I like. My main bike's frameset is this:

    spAllezExpert20_400-1536-80.jpg

    For 20 years I've not ridden any bikes other than these two, so don't having anything to compare to. I've recently stuck 25mm Conti 4000s on them, running low-ish pressures, and the main bike (ally but with carbon seat stays, fork, bars & tons of carbon seatpost showing + Kysrium Elite S) feels pretty plush to me. The fit is good due to an Adrian Timmis fitting years ago.

    The aim is largely to build a better version (in every area) of what I already have, taking advantages of technology and thinking that's moved on, to last me maybe a decade: hence electronic shifting (Di2), flat mount hydraulic discs, thru axles, internal cable routing, room to run 28-30mm tubeless tyres, maybe Hunt 30 carbon wheels, probably a PM, maybe discrete mudguard mounts. Current bike in an XL weighs 8.5-8.6kg inc seat, pedals, cages, and I'd be disappointed if the new one weighed more.

    I don't mind paying up for stuff that does a better job, or that I like the look of (which is important for something I'll own for years). With the componentry, I have some appreciation of where it's worth spending extra money to get better stuff or stuff that appeals to me; but frames seem to be an especially subjective area, and one where I haven't a clue. Hence the question!

    The Hunts are well overpriced for what they - look at the recent threads on this. Wasted budget money.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    Thanks for the various replies; it's making me think more about what I'm after...

    Strael looks good, although would prefer more of a slope in the top tube. Me going down the disc brake route and wanting to keep the weight to no more than the current bike's means that most steel frames will struggle, I guess.

    I've looked at Rourke stuff, and have zero doubt they know their craft extremely well and would build me a great-fitting frame, but I'm not really into the aesthetics of how they look (quite a trad look) and weight might well be an issue. Steel has no emotional tug for me, so it's just down to "what will work best" for me and appeal to me. Just rooting around yesterday looking at steel stuff online and I spotted this GCN vid, and for reference I like the aesthetics of that frame (and the bike in general - but not the shouty Zipp logos):
    https://youtu.be/A4wAeTk4wAU?t=17

    Cervelo C3 is very interesting - will definitely look more closely at that - a top contender so far.

    I have had a look at the Mason frames online and one could certainly tick plenty of my boxes - I am slightly wary of stuff that's developed a bit of a cult following though as I'm not a crowd follower. But definitely an option that I'll look at. The steel may be too heavy for me, and having ridden ally bikes for donkey years, a change of material is more appealing to me. I believe he's got a Ti Aspect model coming along, but budget would probably be blown by that.

    Re power meter, I've been "training" indoors with smarttrainer power and have found to my surprise that I quite like the analysis and numbers stuff. Not obsessively so, but more out of interest, and I quite like the idea of having a PM outdoors for pacing, analysis and what have you. If I'm having a bike built anway, and it fits in the "budget", then I'll go for one.

    I love a brushed Ti finish on frames (probably why I've kept the current 'fake' Ti main bike so long) so given the right geometry, a major tick in the aesthetics box for Titanium. Toyed with buying one a few years back but never got round to it. More of an emotional tug than steel, but not to "must have" levels. Never ridden a Ti frame. The (one-time) rational engineer in me wonders whether it's not been largely eclipsed now as a frame material (by CF), unless you're subject to a big emotional tug from it (which I understand).

    Comment noted re Hunt wheels. I'll try to read those threads and see what the alternatives are (no shouty logos for me though, discrete look preferred). Any quick pointers appreciated...

    The current bike has pretty racey geometry, I believe, but I'm open to something a bit more "endurance". I'll keep the current bike and stick it at a relative's where I do shorter rides. Might be a positive if the new bike was a bit less racey, as it'd generally be used for longer hillier rides from home, quite often using back lanes where road surfaces can be crappy, and I wouldn't say to an ability to soak this up well (better) and maybe leave me feeling fresher.
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,639
    Enigma?
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    AKH wrote:
    Quite a few high end bikes have integrated aero front ends now. They may look slick, but changing components to fine tune fit might be awkward.

    No one knows the future, but you may be best avoiding any proprietary standards, or manufacture specific spare parts, if you want to ride the bike for >10 years. Trek's BB90 bottom bracket uses a none standard bearing size for example, who knows what availability will be like in a decade. BB30 on the other hand uses standard bearings that you'll be able to buy from any industrial parts catalogue (check out the likes of NTN, SKF for very high quality bearings).

    Agreed.

    I've been looking at all those slick aero "cockpits" and thinking how great they look but what a nightmare you might have in X years time if it's proprietary stuff with limited replacement parts or adjustability, eg. if you were trying to sell the frame on and could only do so to your own clone...
  • akh
    akh Posts: 206
    That GCN bike does look good. Do they not mention the maker in the video? Maybe you could make some enquiries. If you want something truly unique, as you describe yourself as not a crowd follower, then custom might be the way to go. I doubt you'll be riding anything custom in 2018 though, what's the average time from initial contact to completion for a custom frame?

    I agree titanium looks cool, but I'd have to ride one before spending the money. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but it seems like aluminium weight and tube profiles for carbon money. Personally I like the look of high end carbon bikes better, but that's just me.
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    AKH wrote:
    That GCN bike does look good. Do they not mention the maker in the video? Maybe you could make some enquiries. If you want something truly unique, as you describe yourself as not a crowd follower, then custom might be the way to go.

    This fella, I believe:
    http://www.sturdycycles.co.uk/

    Custom is an option but I don't hanker after a one-off. The build itself would be custom, so I'd be happy with an off the peg frame that ticked the boxes. Plus, I've had a crasftmen-built car years ago, so that itch is scratched, and I'm quite happy to have something pumped out of a factory especially if I think it's better!

    No rush - I won't do anything until next year - fact-finding currently to narrow down the options and learn what to look for...
  • moonshine
    moonshine Posts: 1,021
    If you are interested in the Cervélo C3, I can recommend it.
    I have a S2 with Dura Ace Di2 and C50s and a P5 and am likely to sell my S2 as the C3 is becoming my go to bike.
    Search for the C3 thread.
    Don't pay over the odds for a C3. I managed to get a 2017 C3 Ultegra Di2 for £2400 (down from £3900 RRP) albeit in a LBS end of season clearance sale)
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    I find the "model year" cycle adopted by most (larger) firms to be a pain the @r5e: handy if you luckily time your purchase when prices have been slashed (assuming someone still sells what you're after - often not the case), while leaving you feeling you're paying over the odds the rest of the time. Maybe it's just me :)

    I've taken another look at the Mason Definition, and it does tick plenty of boxes. With a Di2 disc build I might well struggle to match (never mind beat) the current bike's weight, but might be possible with some lighter carbon wheels. Not a critical issue. Sensible thing would be to give Mason a visit and ride one, but I'm nowhere near so means a big job breaking out. Hmmm...

    Having got potential carbon and alloy candidates (or at least reference points), I probably need to take a look at Ti. Where to start?
  • Maybe a custom ti frame from Burls?
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    Maybe a custom ti frame from Burls?

    ** Marathon post alert! **

    Thanks for that. I've a strong feeling of déjà vu here...

    I think I've decided not to get a carbon frame. I've zero doubt about the capabilities (performance/weight) of carbon, and if I was intending to replace it every year or two or three, I'd probably go down the carbon route. But there's something about the appearance (and marketing) of carbon frames that, for me at least, has parallels with mobile phones: appealing, on-trend and bang up to date when launched (& purchased), but where the novelty and pleasure of ownership fairly quickly wanes as the next product iterations soon come along and you begin hankering after the replacement...

    I think I'm interested in buying something a bit more timeless than that, which'll still appeal to me 5, 7, or more years down the line, even if that means sacrificing some performance characteristics.

    And I like the appearance of unpainted Ti frames, that easily keep their good looks, sporting low-key (or polished-in) decals, built up with quality but un-garish components to form a bike that's capable, classy and not a mobile advertising hoarding for a bunch of manufacturers...

    The deja vu is that the last time I began looking for another bike, ~7 years ago, I followed the exact same thought processes: after going through all the options I found myself drooling over a top-end Omega or Enigma (whatever they were then) and totting up a build costing nearly 5 grand. Then deciding that was a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a bike and so looked into the Chinese import route, before parking the whole idea and sticking with what I had...

    Today, it'd be easy to get up to 7-8k for a build that appeals to me, which is getting a bit silly as I don't want to spend that much. And I've the added complication of not quite knowing what I might end up using the bike for (eg. occasional light touring in addition to the normal road use?), and therefore what type of geometry to aim for, and what if any compromises this might involve.

    I've looked at Justin Burls' site and there's definitely possibilities there. I've looked at all the other suggestions posted too (cheers), and have spent the past few days reading product reviews and discussion threads here and elsewhere. There's so much subjective opinion involved that it's tricky to draw firm conclusions. Reminds me a bit of reading hi-fi magazine reviews years ago, where the suspicion is always that much of the hyperbole written by reviewers is invented to justify the price of the item being reviewed.

    Anyway, seems I've narrowed things down to a:
    - sloping top-tube Ti frame
    - supporting flat mount discs, thru axles, Di2 internal cable routing
    - discrete mudguard mounts (rack mounts probably not required)
    - and clearance for decent-sized 28mm+ tyres with mudguards fitted.

    After a few years off the bike, the deterioration in road surface quality is noticeable. Much of my cycling is down sh!tty, (mainly) Peak District back lanes, that can have horrible surfaces, so bigger tyres seem an obvious response...

    The tyre clearance is the key question here, whether I go custom or off-the-peg: do I go for a 'road' frame that's got decent tyre clearance (and the new disc frames seem to be getting better and better), or a full-on 'gravel/adventure' frame (a.k.a. 'touring') where anything goes tyre-wise, possibly way beyond what I'd ever need?

    In off-the-peg terms, I suppose this question would be (for example) Mason Definition/Aspect vs. Mason Bokeh, or Reilly Spectre vs. Gradient. Am I right in thinking the main differences at play between the road vs gravel/adventure (touring!) are the wheelbase lengths (due to chainstays and head angle differences)?

    I currently ride two bikes, one with drops, one flat-bar, set up to be as similar as possible, but although their wheelbases measure 40mm differently I don't really notice any difference between them (other than the handlebar types). So would a Gradient feel noticeably different to ride than a Spectre; or a Bokeh different to a Definition? Or in practice are the differences so minor that you soon adjust and forget about them?

    Is there anyone here using these so-called gravel bikes primarily/solely as a road bike, and if so, what's your experience and what if any are the downsides?

    Cheers!
  • Thigh_burn
    Thigh_burn Posts: 489
    I appreciate this is going against what you said in your most recent post, so please ignore if no interest. But I've just noticed that Merlin are doing Colnagos at big discounts, including the C60 at 37% off, putting it at the top end plus a bit of your budget.
  • I built up a fairly lightweight (16.5 lb) gravel ti frameset to replace the roadbike after being on 700x32 for a bit.

    Don't miss the roadbike at all, probably as I don't ride pacelines. I much prefer the feel of ti over carbon and I can't go back to narrow tyres after being on slick 42mm+ (mainly ride 650b x 42 or 48 on sealed roads. 2.1" in the rougher stuff).

    A lightweight 650b x 42 setup tubeless on a lightweight wheel isn't much slower than a 700x25 in my mind (am using a 1200gm wheelset).

    If you're considering moving toward a 'gravel' ti frame (wider tyre clearance) then I'd probably first look around for a test ride on a similar bike. Otherwise stick to a roadbike style frame with perhaps clearance for 30/32mm.

    You may even be able to find an off-the-peg frameset with the frame geo and specs that suit you.
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    Thigh_burn wrote:
    I appreciate this is going against what you said in your most recent post, so please ignore if no interest. But I've just noticed that Merlin are doing Colnagos at big discounts, including the C60 at 37% off, putting it at the top end plus a bit of your budget.

    Thanks for the link. If I had a fleet of bikes and was looking for a Sunday best, a lugged Colnago beauty would be right up there - and I could hang it on the living room wall the other 6 days. Just not my current plan...
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    I built up a fairly lightweight (16.5 lb) gravel ti frameset to replace the roadbike after being on 700x32 for a bit.

    Don't miss the roadbike at all, probably as I don't ride pacelines. I much prefer the feel of ti over carbon and I can't go back to narrow tyres after being on slick 42mm+ (mainly ride 650b x 42 or 48 on sealed roads. 2.1" in the rougher stuff).

    A lightweight 650b x 42 setup tubeless on a lightweight wheel isn't much slower than a 700x25 in my mind (am using a 1200gm wheelset).

    If you're considering moving toward a 'gravel' ti frame (wider tyre clearance) then I'd probably first look around for a test ride on a similar bike. Otherwise stick to a roadbike style frame with perhaps clearance for 30/32mm.

    You may even be able to find an off-the-peg frameset with the frame geo and specs that suit you.

    Prompted by your post I had a read of this:
    https://road.cc/content/feature/171905- ... 650b-bikes

    That largely answers my earlier question about the frame geometry changes needed to accommodate ever larger tyre sizes with 700c wheels, and why 650b might be a better alternative in some cases. Maybe I should come back in 5 years time and see where standards have settled? :lol: I am only joking because a bunch of other stuff will by then be in flux...

    Your sentence above that I've bolded is my default position. I'm weighing up alternatives just to help me triangulate my requirements, and writing stuff down here to solicit input has been a useful part of this to make sure I've not overlooked something. I'm not really up to speed on all the changes afoot in the cycling world so it's good to be able to tap the collective knowledge here to help fill in the gaps...

    I'm not planning on getting the bike for a year so plenty of time to kick tyres, but something along the lines of the Reilly Spectre (or similiar off the peg or perhaps custom [Burls] Ti) is my current thinking. I've a pal with a Moda Motif that I may be able to squeeze myself onto for a ride to see how that feels compared to my current bike. What to get will eventually become clear.

    Cheers.
  • vortice
    vortice Posts: 244
    Just get a Rose x-lite 6 disc ultegra Di2 and be done with it. Money left over for a cheap winter bike.
  • siddy1972
    siddy1972 Posts: 180
    How about a Cannondale Synapse with Di2 or Etap? They have really well hidden mudguard mounts (2018 models) and decent tyre clearance too.
    Some bargains around at the minute too.
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    I'm a little bit of minimalist, but only up to a point, as my minimalism is largely about reducing hassle for myself, while reducing 'stuff' is secondary...

    So, one bike is the ideal, not a fleet. I have more than one bike, but that's to reduce hassle, eg. a turbo-mule that's permanently affixed to a trainer; another bike housed elsewhere to avoid me transporting one there each visit. But I'm not interested in having a winter bike: I like to ride in good weather and avoid the bad (hence the turbo alternative); removable 'guards are a nice-have in recognition that for a couple of seasons or more per year, even on fine days the roads may contain a load of crud.

    The 'stealth' look of many current - particularly carbon - bikes does nothing for me. Nor do the multi-coloured paint jobs of other frames. If buying a purely functional tool, none of that would matter much: I'd just buy whatever did the best job for the money I was spending.

    I think that what I'm looking for here is not a purely functional tool (eg. what I've already got works well enough for me), but something both very functional and with emotional appeal. The latter's clearly a personal thing as we all have differing tastes, and it'd be a duller world if we all liked the same things.

    This thread's been handy in helping me to figure out what presses my buttons more and what doesn't so much. I've sometimes found in the past that going through this sort of fact-finding (and soul gazing) process when considering a non-essential purchase results in me deciding to buy nothing (yet): much of the benefit of "retail therapy" absent the expense and the thrill of new ownership! Good job the global economy doesn't rely on me... :lol:

    But if I soak myself in the subject, the decision will eventually make itself. So thanks for all the input here - it's all very useful even if it's a while until any bike retailer/manufacturer sees any benefit!
  • I like the versatility of this, extra money could go on power meter or wheels. https://www.cannondale.com/en/Europe/Bi ... =undefined
  • sorry to bump this thread but how are you getting on with your search?! I'm in a similar boat but more set on Ti. I (read 'think i') have now narrowed it down to 3
    1) Laverack R Jack
    2) Reilly Spectre
    3) Mason Aspect

    have you manage to test ride any of the above or have you gone away from Ti?

    thanks

    T
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    Enigma. Get a custom Excel. Go and visit them in Hailsham - don't know where you're based, but I rode there - makes for a nice day out. I have an off-the-shelf Excel and Etape, and got them to make me a custom single-speed in 6Al4V (road-ish geometry, but track ends and a raised BB). I have 18 bikes, but if I could only keep one, it would be the Excel.
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    Here's the Excel outside Enigma's factory:
    y4mpwDwI17j3ou-lAUULBYRMoAfe2WEGUE750L9yfUD04yZTKupJRLxx1Y2Ue1-2vyrsQcGh6xn_PiP89WiEK3lxg2Zwi2PMRQpfCWj1PXbio__8CDEqgVDf60scGKONoPYeYYQSjiUPQA8OhwKUJN95ap5171OB4TOExyxkbEgDOIwnJGgwfTyssQhWS2dqlAobRJEZhVIKIeFEETBONvHlw?width=768&height=1024&cropmode=none

    and here's the single-speed version:
    y4muBbre2qPnaeono6MKO-q961NhGsYN6whOeGjEIEjEYzY03YrVrjIEExeSuUGIG22UUHFSwEOYyNREwZeX728rXxzjP6ngmNHNo26rv4J9LMNUNWme5pZkdun7W4V1CgKCMWJ9Hr_oRRK30OTyvp-6tF4sMg2e1Cak7-QH_7osUdXdMJO_GYWq1v08sN3gTJGz99WbpmF7UzBAcpaO7Eh8Q?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none
  • handful
    handful Posts: 920
    sorry to bump this thread but how are you getting on with your search?! I'm in a similar boat but more set on Ti. I (read 'think i') have now narrowed it down to 3
    1) Laverack R Jack
    2) Reilly Spectre
    3) Mason Aspect

    have you manage to test ride any of the above or have you gone away from Ti?

    thanks

    T

    There is big difference in price between the Reilly and the Mason. I'm in a similar dilemma with a similar shortlist, if you swap the Mason (lovely but too expensive for me) with a Vaaru MPA and possibly an Enigma. I called into Reilly about 6 weeks ago and there is no doubt the Spectre/Gradient is a lovely bike but I have been less than impressed with their comms. On the other hand Vaaru were very responsive to an email and gave me much more assurance that they will be better to deal with. I haven't contacted Laverack yet, I think I'm probably going to go with one of the other two. I am looking at either a Di2 or preferaply etap build and trying to keep it sub £5k, hence why I am excluding the Mason.
    Vaaru Titanium Sram Red eTap
    Moda Chord with drop bars and Rival shifters - winter/do it all bike
    Orbea Rise