Brian Holm rips into Lappartient's reform ideas

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  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,867
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    I think race design is getting more imaginative. Fair few flops ..ridiculous grid start. But super short mountain stages seem to work as do cobbles and Strada. I think there is room for a few more innovations. ... Stick the cobbles in after the mountains at the end. They are near Paris?
    I think alternating long and short stages works well.

    A GT made up entirely of 80km stages would be a bit rubbish, IMO.
    I concur the mixture also tests the riders different attributes and skill sets. Mix it up basically.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,867
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    The races with really reduced teams have also been more fun.
    Yep
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,867
    Zulle to la plage and il diablo to sestriere ain't got nothing on Froome . That ride was not only amazing but race winning. That giro was the best grand tour I have ever seen. better than the 1987 tour. Last season was pretty incredible. This one not so much but sometimes you have to get down to get back up
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,588
    mididoctors wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    The races with really reduced teams have also been more fun.
    Yep

    Not sure it's realistic in GTs though. Over three weeks there's a risk that teams would be virtually decimated (I seem to recall a team at the Tour last year finishing with hardly any riders). That said, maybe we could have teams of 6 with medical or even tactical substitutions.
  • Alejandrosdog
    Alejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    Pross wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    The races with really reduced teams have also been more fun.
    Yep

    Not sure it's realistic in GTs though. Over three weeks there's a risk that teams would be virtually decimated (I seem to recall a team at the Tour last year finishing with hardly any riders). That said, maybe we could have teams of 6 with medical or even tactical substitutions.

    My first reaction to subs was ridiculous but then I thought about it. It has the potential to really upset things, I think it could be great providing the race wasn’t in two halves. I.e. flat first part Mountain’s second or else the well funded teams would end up even more dominant.

    Teams of seven and 2 subs allowed, subs times not to count, subs can’t win stages
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    Pross wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    The races with really reduced teams have also been more fun.
    Yep

    Not sure it's realistic in GTs though. Over three weeks there's a risk that teams would be virtually decimated (I seem to recall a team at the Tour last year finishing with hardly any riders). That said, maybe we could have teams of 6 with medical or even tactical substitutions.

    Meh, suck it up.

    Making alliances is more fun than relying on teams.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    mididoctors wrote:
    Zulle to la plage and il diablo to sestriere ain't got nothing on Froome . That ride was not only amazing but race winning. That giro was the best grand tour I have ever seen. better than the 1987 tour. Last season was pretty incredible. This one not so much but sometimes you have to get down to get back up

    Thought the first week was a little dry, though it went through lots of places I'd recently been on holiday.

    But yes, one of the best.

    Better than the '11 Tour?
    _
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,815
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    Zulle to la plage and il diablo to sestriere ain't got nothing on Froome . That ride was not only amazing but race winning. That giro was the best grand tour I have ever seen. better than the 1987 tour. Last season was pretty incredible. This one not so much but sometimes you have to get down to get back up

    Thought the first week was a little dry, though it went through lots of places I'd recently been on holiday.

    But yes, one of the best.

    Better than the '11 Tour?

    Easily.
    Of course there was the Hoogerland barb wire experience, but as I recall the Pyrenean stages were pretty meh.
    Then a great final week.
    The '10 Giro was also better.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,867
    When the leading contenders for the podium race so hard they drop a 100 places on GC in a single stage or go to hospital you know it was a race. I watched in fearful awe as Yates turned into the hollow man as he kept battering away at opponents who just didn't give up.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,867
    To be fair this decade of the 10s will be remembered as a decade of good grand tours.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    I find it curious that everyone thinks the answer to MORE exciting racing is to give the riders LESS.

    - Fewer KM's
    - Fewer team mates
    - Reduce technology
    - Less money

    Limit coverage to 30 minutes per day, none of it live and someone with skill could even edit the first week of the Giro to make it exciting
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Alejandrosdog
    Alejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    iainf72 wrote:
    I find it curious that everyone thinks the answer to MORE exciting racing is to give the riders LESS.

    - Fewer KM's
    - Fewer team mates
    - Reduce technology
    - Less money

    Limit coverage to 30 minutes per day, none of it live and someone with skill could even edit the first week of the Giro to make it exciting

    youd have needed more than skill to make the first week of this years Giro interesting.
  • Alejandrosdog
    Alejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    mididoctors wrote:
    When the leading contenders for the podium race so hard they drop a 100 places on GC in a single stage or go to hospital you know it was a race. I watched in fearful awe as Yates turned into the hollow man as he kept battering away at opponents who just didn't give up.

    this :)
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,867
    iainf72 wrote:
    I find it curious that everyone thinks the answer to MORE exciting racing is to give the riders LESS.

    - Fewer KM's
    - Fewer team mates
    - Reduce technology
    - Less money

    Limit coverage to 30 minutes per day, none of it live and someone with skill could even edit the first week of the Giro to make it exciting


    . It's not less km it's sometimes less Kms. Its a preferencr to see a more equal pay structure for the riders and staff not less money in the sport. Smaller teams in some races makes sense . The technology thing is still in committee IMO and will always have arbitrary constraints. Technology has been removed in the past rightly or wrongly. I don't see any recumbants in the tt


    Not sure what you are trying to say here?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    I was just pointing out that taking away seems to be the solution, rather than looking at what could be added.

    Do we think racing in the TdF was superior in the 80s? If so, they had larger teams. So larger teams = better racing.

    Personally, I think a lot of this is "borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered 80's" (LCD Soundsystem lyrics)
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,815
    iainf72 wrote:

    Do we think racing in the TdF was superior in the 80s? If so, they had larger teams. So larger teams = better racing.

    Personally, I think a lot of this is "borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered 80's" (LCD Soundsystem lyrics)

    This.
    It's also the reason why so many oldies voted for Brexit.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:

    Do we think racing in the TdF was superior in the 80s? If so, they had larger teams. So larger teams = better racing.

    Personally, I think a lot of this is "borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered 80's" (LCD Soundsystem lyrics)

    This.
    It's also the reason why so many oldies voted for Brexit.
    Yeah! Basically if you want to get rid of power meters you must be a Brexit voter.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    bompington wrote:
    Yeah! Basically if you want to get rid of power meters you must be a Brexit voter.

    Well, SRM who are synonymous with power meters, are a German company, so it makes sense :lol:
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,157
    If your golden age was the 80s then take the leading rider into the woods and shoot him
    If your golden age was the 90s then find a game-changing drug and distribute to the peloton gradually over a period of five years
    If your golden age was the 00s then find a superstar and make them bigger than the sport

    And to recreate any of these bring back 100km+ of time trialling (and 50km+ TTTs)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,157
    iainf72 wrote:

    Personally, I think a lot of this is "borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered 80's" (LCD Soundsystem lyrics)
    I hear that you're buying a Reynolds 531 and Campagnolo and throwing your Garmin out of the window because you want to ride something real.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    RichN95 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:

    Personally, I think a lot of this is "borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered 80's" (LCD Soundsystem lyrics)
    I hear that you're buying a Reynolds 531 and Campagnolo and throwing your Garmin out of the window because you want to ride something real.

    I saw everything, before anyone
    I was there, in 1989, when Lemond used aero bars
    I was there, when Hinault won LBL in the snow
    I woke Roche up, on top of La Plange in 87....

    I WAS THERE. I was there.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,157
    iainf72 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:

    Personally, I think a lot of this is "borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered 80's" (LCD Soundsystem lyrics)
    I hear that you're buying a Reynolds 531 and Campagnolo and throwing your Garmin out of the window because you want to ride something real.

    I saw everything, before anyone
    I was there, in 1989, when Lemond used aero bars
    I was there, when Hinault won LBL in the snow
    I woke Roche up, on top of La Plange in 87....

    I WAS THERE. I was there.
    GERT. JAN. THEUNISSE!
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    RichN95 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:

    Personally, I think a lot of this is "borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered 80's" (LCD Soundsystem lyrics)
    I hear that you're buying a Reynolds 531 and Campagnolo and throwing your Garmin out of the window because you want to ride something real.

    I saw everything, before anyone
    I was there, in 1989, when Lemond used aero bars
    I was there, when Hinault won LBL in the snow
    I woke Roche up, on top of La Plange in 87....

    I WAS THERE. I was there.
    GERT. JAN. THEUNISSE!

    :lol:

    I'm thinking of doing a Steve Pinker'esque "what does the data tell us" / "who do the data tell us" (For my American friends out there)

    For example : Different individual riders who won TdF (Keeping Armstrong as winner as no one replaced him as winner)

    1970s - 6
    1980s - 6
    1990s - 6
    2000s - 4
    2010's - 6
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,867
    RichN95 wrote:
    If your golden age was the 80s then take the leading rider into the woods and shoot him
    If your golden age was the 90s then find a game-changing drug and distribute to the peloton gradually over a period of five years
    If your golden age was the 00s then find a superstar and make them bigger than the sport

    And to recreate any of these bring back 100km+ of time trialling (and 50km+ TTTs)


    80s Hinault was a dick and Greg lemond was a space case too.


    God The 90s were tedious as feck.... The only upside for epo was riders taking a flyer 3k to go on flat sprint stages making it a bit more entertaining. Yes I am looking at you Jasper Skippy and you ekimov.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,157
    mididoctors wrote:
    God The 90s were tedious as feck.... The only upside for epo was riders taking a flyer 3k to go on flat sprint stages making it a bit more entertaining. Yes I am looking at you Jasper Skippy and you ekimov.
    They did that before EPO too. Jelle Nijdam was the master of it in the 80s.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,867
    RichN95 wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    God The 90s were tedious as feck.... The only upside for epo was riders taking a flyer 3k to go on flat sprint stages making it a bit more entertaining. Yes I am looking at you Jasper Skippy and you ekimov.
    They did that before EPO too. Jelle Nijdam was the master of it in the 80s.
    l gave nijdam a push on the aubisque once.... last rider up... Hand signalling for a push the whole way. He looked rubbished

    Iirc he wasn't shy of taking a flyer in the 90s too.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm

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