Brian Holm rips into Lappartient's reform ideas

RonB

No tA Doctor wrote:

The Belgians don't get to play? Think they'd have a decent stage-hunting team :-)

Just be minded that GvA was best placed on the GC this yr

yorkshireraw

DeadCalm wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

Dutch: Tom D, Steven K, Wilco K, Sam O, Laurens TD, Gesink, Van Emden and Stef Clement. Would clean up in a TTT.

No Poels, Groenewegen or Terpstra?

Ah, shoot. Always forget NT a Dutchie as he's been at QS so long.

Terpstra in, Clement out. Also makes rider ID easier as Clement and Van Emden are basically the same bloke.

Wout in for Laurens TD on the climbing side.

No room for Sprinters when going for a proper GC tilt.

Jez mon

iainf72 wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

The public don't really care about who finishes off the podium do they?

No, but I think most people would think if you did come 3rd you should get some kind of UCI points and financial reward.....

I'm saying if you had a system that only rewarded winning, you'd get different racing entirely.

I think rewarding down to third place is fair, but if I recall correctly, the points go down quite a lot lower than that. IMO it's only Digger and his pals who care whether a rider has finished top twenty or top 100, and that's only if they are trying to say they came from nowhere...

Perhaps rejigging the points and financial returns to make the polka dot and green jerseys more appealing. Maybe remove the team prize?

No_Ta_Doctor

Jez mon wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

The public don't really care about who finishes off the podium do they?

No, but I think most people would think if you did come 3rd you should get some kind of UCI points and financial reward.....

I'm saying if you had a system that only rewarded winning, you'd get different racing entirely.

I think rewarding down to third place is fair, but if I recall correctly, the points go down quite a lot lower than that. IMO it's only Digger and his pals who care whether a rider has finished top twenty or top 100, and that's only if they are trying to say they came from nowhere...

Perhaps rejigging the points and financial returns to make the polka dot and green jerseys more appealing. Maybe remove the team prize?

The points - and prize money - do stretch quite a long way down, but if I remember correctly, there's not all that much difference per place once you're a couple of places off the podium. I think it's more likely that trying for e.g. a top ten (and riding to defend it) is so you can go to your sponsors and say "see, we're in with a shot at the podium, keep giving us money".

DeadCalm

YorkshireRaw wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

Dutch: Tom D, Steven K, Wilco K, Sam O, Laurens TD, Gesink, Van Emden and Stef Clement. Would clean up in a TTT.

No Poels, Groenewegen or Terpstra?

Ah, shoot. Always forget NT a Dutchie as he's been at QS so long.

Terpstra in, Clement out. Also makes rider ID easier as Clement and Van Emden are basically the same bloke.

Wout in for Laurens TD on the climbing side.

No room for Sprinters when going for a proper GC tilt.

That's a handy looking team.

If we're actually trying to build a team to win GC rather than picking the best 8 riders, I'd make a couple of changes to your GB team, bringing in Stannard and Dowsett for Adam Yates and Cav / Cummings.

davidof

As an example of one of the errors ASO made this year was tarmacing the last 8km of the Col du Portet. What could have been an epic a la Giro turned into an aseptic trundle.

yorkshireraw

DeadCalm wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

Dutch: Tom D, Steven K, Wilco K, Sam O, Laurens TD, Gesink, Van Emden and Stef Clement. Would clean up in a TTT.

No Poels, Groenewegen or Terpstra?

Ah, shoot. Always forget NT a Dutchie as he's been at QS so long.

Terpstra in, Clement out. Also makes rider ID easier as Clement and Van Emden are basically the same bloke.

Wout in for Laurens TD on the climbing side.

No room for Sprinters when going for a proper GC tilt.

That's a handy looking team.

If we're actually trying to build a team to win GC rather than picking the best 8 riders, I'd make a couple of changes to your GB team, bringing in Stannard and Dowsett for Adam Yates and Cav / Cummings.

Agreed to a point - Stannard in if he can get back to his best. No Cav or Cummings. I'd keep both Yates tho - GB could be uber-Movistar with 4 GC contenders.

r0bh

YorkshireRaw wrote:

Agreed to a point - Stannard in if he can get back to his best. No Cav or Cummings. I'd keep both Yates tho - GB could be uber-Movistar with 4 GC contenders.

Because that tactic always works oh so well for Movistar doesn't it!

bobmcstuff

I think 4 leaders with 8 man teams is an even worse idea than 3 leaders...

I would take 1 clear leader (and I suppose one credible deputy in case the leader falls off) and then the 7 best domestiques I could lay my hands on. Which is pretty much exactly what Sky do already.

larkim

The issue with trying to create interest beyond the outright winner is that the TdF is a one off event - there is really on the winner to add to the history books.

Other sports use different means to try to create some interest in the "also rans":-
Tennis - ranking points across the season
Soccer - league structures & knock out competitions
Athletics - Diamond League structure
Marathons - World Marathon Majors

Not all are equally successful, but unless there is some seasonal "narrative" which carries some reward it is challenging to make an event about anything other than the victory.

Which is ironic, as the 2nd, 3rd, 4th placers in the TdF do seem very interested in achieving and protecting those positions by the third week of the Tour - so the riders are interested in it, it's just that doesn't get well translated via the media.

The complete disconnect between the sprinting and the mountains / TT as more or less distinct competitions (with the mountains + TT being the "main" competition in effect) in the TdF doesn't help it much - having what are in effect just days of trying to create fatigue amongst the MJ contenders is always going to be difficult to translate into Joe Public's mind as being interesting.

yourpaceormine

Cummings should only ever be included in a wild card team, a team whose goals are TV breakaways and if the stars align a stage. A team with a serious tilt at overall where every rider contributes daily towards that goal? Classy rider, but that isn't his role.

Vino'sGhost

yourpaceormine wrote:

Cummings should only ever be included in a wild card team, a team whose goals are TV breakaways and if the stars align a stage. A team with a serious tilt at overall where every rider contributes daily towards that goal? Classy rider, but that isn't his role.

He should join cofidis or wanty then

bobmcstuff

larkim wrote:

The issue with trying to create interest beyond the outright winner is that the TdF is a one off event - there is really on the winner to add to the history books.

Other sports use different means to try to create some interest in the "also rans":-
Tennis - ranking points across the season
Soccer - league structures & knock out competitions
Athletics - Diamond League structure
Marathons - World Marathon Majors

Not all are equally successful, but unless there is some seasonal "narrative" which carries some reward it is challenging to make an event about anything other than the victory.

Which is ironic, as the 2nd, 3rd, 4th placers in the TdF do seem very interested in achieving and protecting those positions by the third week of the Tour - so the riders are interested in it, it's just that doesn't get well translated via the media.

The complete disconnect between the sprinting and the mountains / TT as more or less distinct competitions (with the mountains + TT being the "main" competition in effect) in the TdF doesn't help it much - having what are in effect just days of trying to create fatigue amongst the MJ contenders is always going to be difficult to translate into Joe Public's mind as being interesting.

Just thinking out loud, maybe they should apply a steeper drop off in terms of prize money and UCI points once you get off the podium, and also increase the rewards for stage wins respectively. Might encourage more teams to go for wins rather than protecting 8th or 12th on GC.

yorkshireraw

r0bh wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

Agreed to a point - Stannard in if he can get back to his best. No Cav or Cummings. I'd keep both Yates tho - GB could be uber-Movistar with 4 GC contenders.

Because that tactic always works oh so well for Movistar doesn't it!

I don't think we were being that serious on this, given the national team thing clearly won't happen. Was a bit of a laugh looking who each nation could pick.

awavey

larkim wrote:

The issue with trying to create interest beyond the outright winner is that the TdF is a one off event - there is really on the winner to add to the history books.

Other sports use different means to try to create some interest in the "also rans":-
Tennis - ranking points across the season
Soccer - league structures & knock out competitions
Athletics - Diamond League structure
Marathons - World Marathon Majors

do people outside of those sports care about those aspects though ? the ranking only seems prevelant in tennis during the 4 main grand slams, the diamond league just always seems a warm up for major championships & place to earn appearance money, I didnt even know there were world marathon majors, soccer leagues are too extensive to really focus on as a model.

bobmcstuff

Inrng's take: http://inrng.com/2018/08/on-banning-powermeters/

"But there’s a risk with the logical fallacy that “something must be done, here’s something, we must do it”. Banning the use of power meters sounds useful but probably isn’t and above all we should be wary of quick solutions."

And "You don’t need a screen to announce you’re riding at your threshold" - I would have thought anyone who has done any halfway structured training, or even owned a heart rate monitor, would know this - but apparently not.

No_Ta_Doctor

bobmcstuff wrote:

Inrng's take: http://inrng.com/2018/08/on-banning-powermeters/

"But there’s a risk with the logical fallacy that “something must be done, here’s something, we must do it”. Banning the use of power meters sounds useful but probably isn’t and above all we should be wary of quick solutions."

And "You don’t need a screen to announce you’re riding at your threshold" - I would have thought anyone who has done any halfway structured training, or even owned a heart rate monitor, would know this - but apparently not.

Good piece. In the comments there's a quote from Bernal

“It’s not a question of speed or watts. Sensations count for a lot,” Bernal said. “They speak about taking away the power meters. I looked at mine occasionally out of curiosity. No one ever told me to go at this power or be careful not to go above this limit.

That's the lead mountain Sky-Bot saying it's irrelevant.
https://www.velonews.com/2018/08/tour-d ... ama_474037

shirley_basso

Indeed. I hit my peak HR in a couple of years last night going up a fairly small gradient and didn't even get a top 3 of my own fastest times on Strava. I was absolutely dying from a sensations point of view but from a power perspective, meh.

bobmcstuff

Bloody Sky, always winning everything...

davidof

So it's been nearly a year now. Has lAppartient actually achieved anything? Women's cycling seems to be going backwards and that was one of the things he was elected for, having let the French branch wither for years.

cougie

He's cracked down on all those e bikes successfully hasn't he ?

mididoctors

davidof wrote:

So it's been nearly a year now. Has lAppartient actually achieved anything? Women's cycling seems to be going backwards and that was one of the things he was elected for, having let the French branch wither for years.

I was disappointed to see la course being just a single stage rather than expand. TDY proves the model can work albeit with some logistical problems restricting how in tandem a women's race can be . But come on they must be able to do better than that.

iainf72

It's almost like being in charge of a big governing body doesn't give you any magical powers to make changes, but you're more just a figurehead.

m.r.m.

Well some can achieve at least small things. He hasn't achieved anything. He is an empty suit collecting a cheque.

No_Ta_Doctor

Well he got rid of Sky, with their freakishly large budget, didn't he?




Oh.

Dorset_Boy

If miraculously a frenchman wins the Tour this year he will see his tenure as a success.

KnightOfTheLongTights

deleted (sorry no idea what went on there)

KnightOfTheLongTights

deleted (ditto)

KnightOfTheLongTights

DeadCalm wrote:

believing that cycling is more interesting when the best riders are on different teams and that one team dominating Grand Tours is not great for the sport, is not the same as 'hating the most successful team'.

This. Lot of overreactive bleating on this thread.
Not a massive fan of DL myself, but he's right on radios and power meters. Of course the riders and the teams and the DS's would be up in arms at any sort of ban - they want all the gadgets that make it as easy as possible for them to control races.
That does not make them good for the sport.

Alejandrosdog

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

believing that cycling is more interesting when the best riders are on different teams and that one team dominating Grand Tours is not great for the sport, is not the same as 'hating the most successful team'.

This. Lot of overreactive bleating on this thread.
Not a massive fan of DL myself, but he's right on radios and power meters. Of course the riders and the teams and the DS's would be up in arms at any sort of ban - they want all the gadgets that make it as easy as possible for them to control races.
That does not make them good for the sport.

Agreed. Short stages in the mountains have proved difficult for GC teams to marshal and control properly, removing power meters and radios would be awesome. There would be no hiding places.

man on man or team against team. use power meters in training but come the race id like to see people riding on feel. some say theyd would all just ride conservatively but theres no evidence of that historically.