Brian Holm rips into Lappartient's reform ideas

blazing_saddles

Alejandrosdog wrote:

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

believing that cycling is more interesting when the best riders are on different teams and that one team dominating Grand Tours is not great for the sport, is not the same as 'hating the most successful team'.

This. Lot of overreactive bleating on this thread.
Not a massive fan of DL myself, but he's right on radios and power meters. Of course the riders and the teams and the DS's would be up in arms at any sort of ban - they want all the gadgets that make it as easy as possible for them to control races.
That does not make them good for the sport.

Agreed. Short stages in the mountains have proved difficult for GC teams to marshal and control properly, removing power meters and radios would be awesome. There would be no hiding places.

man on man or team against team. use power meters in training but come the race id like to see people riding on feel. some say theyd would all just ride conservatively but theres no evidence of that historically.

Don't talk rubbish, or did you pair not witness the steaming pile that was this Giro?
Last year's race had everything you folks hate, yet it was a brilliant.
This year, without the supposed dominant team strangling the race and with the only other recognized "stem watcher" crashing out early, we got 3 weeks of shiite.
"Natural", attacking riders certainly not staring at power metres, cos they were too busy watching eachother's rear wheels.

RichN95.

Power meters: No-one rides to a power meter outside maybe a time-trial. 400W one day is not the same at doing 400W the next - it all depends on form. And besides, these are experienced professionals. They no more need a power meter to judge 400W than a butcher needs a scale to judge a pound of meat.

Radios: If riders can't talk to each other, the tactics will become more conservative, not more inventive. Bold tactics require communication to have a hope of execution. If you can't communicate, teams stick together as a unit. Radios also allow for plans to be changed.

When looking for a solution to a problem people are always susceptible to picking the 'simple and wrong' option over the 'complex but right' one.

mididoctors

If their was no point in using power meters during the race why do so many riders use them?

bompington

Picking on technical issues like radios or power meters isn't really going for the heart of the issue.

Lapartient (and clearly a few here ;-)) stands for the "we want to see old-fashioned amateurs slugging it out with amateur tactics" faction.

Whatever you try and ban, modern elite sports teams aren't going to do that: they're going to game whatever regs you put in place.

Personally, I think we should bring back stout and rare steak training diets.

r0bh

mididoctors wrote:

If their was no point in using power meters during the race why do so many riders use them?

For post race analysis and long term performance monitoring. On the track they're not even allowed to have head units but still ride with powermeters, for the same reason.

rick_chasey

mididoctors wrote:

If their was no point in using power meters during the race why do so many riders use them?

Would be curious to see how many were used if power meters didn't count towards the bike weight limit.

Alejandrosdog

RichN95 wrote:

Power meters: No-one rides to a power meter outside maybe a time-trial. 400W one day is not the same at doing 400W the next - it all depends on form. And besides, these are experienced professionals. They no more need a power meter to judge 400W than a butcher needs a scale to judge a pound of meat.

Radios: If riders can't talk to each other, the tactics will become more conservative, not more inventive. Bold tactics require communication to have a hope of execution. If you can't communicate, teams stick together as a unit. Radios also allow for plans to be changed.

When looking for a solution to a problem people are always susceptible to picking the 'simple and wrong' option over the 'complex but right' one.

NO this is all wrong. 400W is 400W that is the point.
there is no indication from the pre radio era that riders were conservative more than they are now. Plans can still be changed on the hoof by you know, talking to each other.

however power meters DO give a reading that sometimes doesn't coincide perfectly with perceived exertion which can be affected by form. Thats why theyre useful to keep a sense check on "am I doing enough and am i going to hard". See the way postal and sky etc dont panic in the mountains. They know exactly what they can do, where that will get them and when its all down to the GC contender to earn his money. Removing that certainty is a good thing.

Alejandrosdog

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

believing that cycling is more interesting when the best riders are on different teams and that one team dominating Grand Tours is not great for the sport, is not the same as 'hating the most successful team'.

This. Lot of overreactive bleating on this thread.
Not a massive fan of DL myself, but he's right on radios and power meters. Of course the riders and the teams and the DS's would be up in arms at any sort of ban - they want all the gadgets that make it as easy as possible for them to control races.
That does not make them good for the sport.

Agreed. Short stages in the mountains have proved difficult for GC teams to marshal and control properly, removing power meters and radios would be awesome. There would be no hiding places.

man on man or team against team. use power meters in training but come the race id like to see people riding on feel. some say theyd would all just ride conservatively but theres no evidence of that historically.

Don't talk rubbish, or did you pair not witness the steaming pile that was this Giro?
Last year's race had everything you folks hate, yet it was a brilliant.
This year, without the supposed dominant team strangling the race and with the only other recognized "stem watcher" crashing out early, we got 3 weeks of shiite.
"Natural", attacking riders certainly not staring at power metres, cos they were too busy watching eachother's rear wheels.

We got three weeks of shite because of route, weather and second tier performances. last years great racing was down to a proper battle leading to yates collapse and a frankly unbelievable and entirely data driven attack by froome. they planned the attack out ENTIRELY in advance with people waiting and more importantly knowledge of the effort to ride at and the calories and fluid needed.

initself thats remarkable but what would the doubt and uncertainty that no power meter have added to the viewer as Froome and his massive team were in the dark. As it was it was like mission control.

twotoebenny

If they knew exactly what they could do everyday we'd be as well watching computers... it's up,the riders if they want to race or not and from where.

RichN95.

Alejandrosdog wrote:

NO this is all wrong. 400W is 400W that is the point.
there is no indication from the pre radio era that riders were conservative more than they are now. Plans can still be changed on the hoof by you know, talking to each other.

A power meter will tell you what wattage you are doing. It won't tell you how long you can maintain that wattage for.

There's also no evidence that they won't. There's plenty of evidence that in life in general humans have a tendency to act defensively and conservatively in unknown situations. And radios facilitate talking to each other.

Alejandrosdog wrote:

We got three weeks of shite because of route, weather and second tier performances. last years great racing was down to a proper battle leading to yates collapse and a frankly unbelievable and entirely data driven attack by froome. they planned the attack out ENTIRELY in advance with people waiting and more importantly knowledge of the effort to ride at and the calories and fluid needed.

initself thats remarkable but what would the doubt and uncertainty that no power meter have added to the viewer as Froome and his massive team were in the dark. As it was it was like mission control.

So what you actually want to ban is not radios and meters, but tactics and planning. And training. Froome wasn't in the dark. He's done hours and hours of training which informs his mind. He's not a novice. The idea that a rider with 11 GT podiums to his name doesn't know his own body is frankly ridiculous.

Alejandrosdog

RichN95 wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

NO this is all wrong. 400W is 400W that is the point.
there is no indication from the pre radio era that riders were conservative more than they are now. Plans can still be changed on the hoof by you know, talking to each other.

A power meter will tell you what wattage you are doing. It won't tell you how long you can maintain that wattage for.

There's also no evidence that they won't. There's plenty of evidence that in life in general humans have a tendency to act defensively and conservatively in unknown situations. And radios facilitate talking to each other.

Alejandrosdog wrote:

We got three weeks of shite because of route, weather and second tier performances. last years great racing was down to a proper battle leading to yates collapse and a frankly unbelievable and entirely data driven attack by froome. they planned the attack out ENTIRELY in advance with people waiting and more importantly knowledge of the effort to ride at and the calories and fluid needed.

initself thats remarkable but what would the doubt and uncertainty that no power meter have added to the viewer as Froome and his massive team were in the dark. As it was it was like mission control.

So what you actually want to ban is not radios and meters, but tactics and planning. And training. Froome wasn't in the dark. He's done hours and hours of training which informs his mind. He's not a novice. The idea that a rider with 11 GT podiums to his name doesn't know his own body is frankly ridiculous.

As a training tool the power meter is excellent. As a racing tool its also powerful, i believe that the change in tactics rising from the use of power meters detracts rather than adds to the spectacle.

analysis of previous days and years performance and training give a reasonably good indication of what potential is. Not perfect but reasonably good and as experienced as froome is if hes riding at the optimal power for a long solo attack then that power will have a narrow band which mostly coincides with his perceived effort. To say that he doesnt need it to know is wrong, a glance here and there to keep it in the right range calibrates effort.

Without the power meter he wouldnt have that calibration and the effects are physical and mental. However since you believe he just knows how much effort he's putting in, you can surely have no issue with the superfluous powermeter being removed.

iainf72

I'm not sure I'm reading this right, but are we saying that power meters and radios are responsible for one of the best stages in a GT in decades?

I'm old enough to remember when we wanted to ban heart rate monitors too...

blazing_saddles

Alejandrosdog wrote:

We got three weeks of shite because of route, weather and second tier performances.

So, you agree it had nothing at all to do with radios, power metres, preparation, super strong teams, etc.
Just conservative racing by riders more worried about losing than winning.
Excellent, well done.

No_Ta_Doctor

iainf72 wrote:

I'm not sure I'm reading this right, but are we saying that power meters and radios are responsible for one of the best stages in a GT in decades?

Apparently so. But I guess the outcome of the stage is what has some people with their knickers in a twist.

mididoctors

r0bh wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

If their was no point in using power meters during the race why do so many riders use them?

For post race analysis and long term performance monitoring. On the track they're not even allowed to have head units but still ride with powermeters, for the same reason.

Maybe being less aware of how they are fatiguing across a 3 week race may open up the racing as well?

twotoebenny

Think it's was Fignon that said the points system stopped people racing as it was points rather than the win... many of the guys are defending top 10s in GCs and not wanting to put that at risk. I don't see how power meters radios etc make any difference.

Alejandrosdog

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

We got three weeks of shite because of route, weather and second tier performances.

So, you agree it had nothing at all to do with radios, power metres, preparation, super strong teams, etc.
Just conservative racing by riders more worried about losing than winning.
Excellent, well done.

No it was more due to favourites being off form and the rest being incapable of more. You’re thinking is simplistic, crude and plain wrong.

Alejandrosdog

TwoToeBenny wrote:

Think it's was Fignon that said the points system stopped people racing as it was points rather than the win... many of the guys are defending top 10s in GCs and not wanting to put that at risk. I don't see how power meters radios etc make any difference.

Then presumably since they make no difference you would have no objection to their removal.

twotoebenny

I couldn't give a fcuk either way... ur the d1ck with the chip on the shoulder about sky. Removing power meters won't make any odds

ocdupalais

Power meters and radios are to racing what “Smart Motorways” are to driving.

Alejandrosdog

TwoToeBenny wrote:

I couldn't give a fcuk either way... ur the d1ck with the chip on the shoulder about sky. Removing power meters won't make any odds

You seem to be angry and incapable of self control; I suspect you’d like to be taken seriously. Just for once.

If you climb a bridge everyone would come, they’d listen to you then. Then you’d be important. The question is, do you have what it takes to jump?

mididoctors

Racing was different before radios and power meters . Not necessarily better. More calls made on the road ...but experienced riders tend to.do that these days too at the front of a grand tour. I think without radios or at least without ds to rider communication riders would get very wheel sucky at first. ... Power meters? No idea. I would like to see a race (week long +stage)without them. I suspect that may make riders even more conservative in effort ...at least at first. I am some what pureist in bias ...would like to see nothing electronic on the bike except the transponder. (Electric gearing is an electrically assisted ride?). But OTOH realise this is largely a emotive position. The racing since major efforts to get the sport clean(er) has been a success in making the racing more spectacular so radios and tech have not ruined cycling. We are in somewhat of a new golden age racing wise. Sure beats the 90s... 94 Roubaix was quite something thou.

TL DR arguments on power meters and radios not proven either way yet.

bobmcstuff

The biggest team always controlled the race. People are imagining a rose tinted past of swashbuckling riding which didn't really exist.

I don't see how this argument about Sky strangling the race really stands up given this years race was pants and last years was the best GT in recent years. Everyone races defensively in the Tour because a top 10 or even a top 15 finish is valuable.

Alejandrosdog wrote:

TwoToeBenny wrote:

Think it's was Fignon that said the points system stopped people racing as it was points rather than the win... many of the guys are defending top 10s in GCs and not wanting to put that at risk. I don't see how power meters radios etc make any difference.

Then presumably since they make no difference you would have no objection to their removal.

Stack it so there is less of a tail - The Tour currently gives 1000 points for 1st, 800 for 2nd, 675 for 3rd then it goes all the way down to 10 points at 60th.

1000 for 1st, 500 for second, 250 for 3rd, 125 for 4th etc.

Then 10th or 15th is hardly worth anything so what's the point riding defensively to hold it? Winner takes all.

Also get rid of the team competition, having an incentive to have 3 riders place moderately on every stage is hardly encouraging attacking riding (I mean I know it seems to be only Movistar who care, but still).

twotoebenny

bobmcstuff wrote:

The biggest team always controlled the race. People are imagining a rose tinted past of swashbuckling riding which didn't really exist.

I don't see how this argument about Sky strangling the race really stands up given this years race was pants and last years was the best GT in recent years. Everyone races defensively in the Tour because a top 10 or even a top 15 finish is valuable.

Alejandrosdog wrote:

TwoToeBenny wrote:

Think it's was Fignon that said the points system stopped people racing as it was points rather than the win... many of the guys are defending top 10s in GCs and not wanting to put that at risk. I don't see how power meters radios etc make any difference.

Then presumably since they make no difference you would have no objection to their removal.

Stack it so there is less of a tail - The Tour currently gives 1000 points for 1st, 800 for 2nd, 675 for 3rd then it goes all the way down to 10 points at 60th.

1000 for 1st, 500 for second, 250 for 3rd, 125 for 4th etc.

Then 10th or 15th is hardly worth anything so what's the point riding defensively to hold it? Winner takes all.

Also get rid of the team competition, having an incentive to have 3 riders place moderately on every stage is hardly encouraging attacking riding (I mean I know it seems to be only Movistar who care, but still).

I think there's defo something to be done on the points front. It would be great if the riders were more interested in winning rather than defending down the pecking order. Most are probably not capable of moving up tho... anyways I need to find myself a bridge :roll:

m.r.m.

Alejandrosdog wrote:

TwoToeBenny wrote:

I couldn't give a fcuk either way... ur the d1ck with the chip on the shoulder about sky. Removing power meters won't make any odds

You seem to be angry and incapable of self control; I suspect you’d like to be taken seriously. Just for once.

If you climb a bridge everyone would come, they’d listen to you then. Then you’d be important. The question is, do you have what it takes to jump?

Do you really need to go this nuclear here? Just because you could do something when provoked, doesn't mean you must do something when provoked. Why not hold yourself to a higher standard?

mididoctors

I think race design is getting more imaginative. Fair few flops ..ridiculous grid start. But super short mountain stages seem to work as do cobbles and Strada. I think there is room for a few more innovations. ... Stick the cobbles in after the mountains at the end. They are near Paris?

bobmcstuff

mididoctors wrote:

I think race design is getting more imaginative. Fair few flops ..ridiculous grid start. But super short mountain stages seem to work as do cobbles and Strada. I think there is room for a few more innovations. ... Stick the cobbles in after the mountains at the end. They are near Paris?

I think alternating long and short stages works well.

A GT made up entirely of 80km stages would be a bit rubbish, IMO.

rick_chasey

mididoctors wrote:

I think race design is getting more imaginative. Fair few flops ..ridiculous grid start. But super short mountain stages seem to work as do cobbles and Strada. I think there is room for a few more innovations. ... Stick the cobbles in after the mountains at the end. They are near Paris?

The races with really reduced teams have also been more fun.

Alejandrosdog

Rick Chasey wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

I think race design is getting more imaginative. Fair few flops ..ridiculous grid start. But super short mountain stages seem to work as do cobbles and Strada. I think there is room for a few more innovations. ... Stick the cobbles in after the mountains at the end. They are near Paris?

The races with really reduced teams have also been more fun.

Yes all of those things make controlling the race much more difficult to control. I approve! It leads to a better sporting spectacle.

Alejandrosdog

OCDuPalais wrote:

Power meters and radios are to racing what “Smart Motorways” are to driving.

This