Chris Froome salbutamol/Tour merged threads

Pross

Timoid. wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Really? Valverde? A great champion, but there is no way in hell he touches Merckx. He isn't even Kelly level.

You're just trolling now.

If you took him back to the 1970s when most of the leaders where all-rounders and the competition was much lower he'd win a lot more than the considerable amount he has today.

To be competitive today, those old riders would have to ride a modern race program - which means less, more specialised racing. Which in turn means fewer victories and a slimmer palmares.

But that is completely different from saying that he would be the equal of Merckx. He might win less as he would be forced to ride a lot more including on the Cobbles and on the track over the winter.

In terms of ability he probably is the equal of Merckx. But they rode in different times so there palamares aren't equal. If you switched them around they'd probably have each others' careers

So Valverde has equal ability to the greatest cyclist of all time? Respectfully that is a load of crahp.

To turn your original question on its head, how do you know and show your workings. Times change, sport changes which is why arguments for the greatest ever are pointless.

Do you really think Merckx at his prime, transported to the current era and using current kit, could win Spring Classics, a Tour and the Worlds in the same season? Even specialising riders struggle to compete a two consecutive GTs. Valverde is the closest we currently have to that season long racer but as a result he is competing against specialist Classics riders and then specialist GT riders, if he been racing back then his competition would be equally spreading their effort across the whole season and therefore he would probably have won much more. I'm pretty sure that's the point being made and it seems reasonable but we'll never know so no-one can be right or wrong

bobmcstuff

Much as I dislike Valverde he is clearly one of the best all round riders for some time, and seems to be able to deal with a very heavy race schedule (he's competitive all season).

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that if you transported him back to a time when riders were expected to compete all year long that he would be a very good or great rider. Given what he has achieved in the current era.

Obviously whether he could compete with Merckx et al is a bit of a spurious question as it is impossible to know.

Vino'sGhost

He is an all round champion, and looks good on the bike. He doesn’t seem to care about the internet warriors either.

Full marks all round. Funnily rich doesn’t commment but that’s because I’m right and rich is a full
On doping supporter

dolan_driver

Tangled Metal wrote:

Anyone else find the comments section full of the usual prejudices? From the Froome bad so anyone criticising him is right to calling the writer of the piece "he". A range of prejudices. Prejudice bingo!

What if any of the posters in the comments section truly hold the belief that Philippa York, having been born a man, is still a man, notwithstanding the fact that Robert Millar now chooses to dress and live as a woman and has taken a woman's name? In those circumstances, is it OK if they refer to P York as "he"? I agree with you that no-one should refer to Philippa York as a "he" simply to inflict insult.

This very debate has been ongoing in Canada and the USA over the course of the last two years, interestingly enough.

DD.

argyllflyer

I have tended to find the Millar/Yorke articles over the past number of years puffed up by some sections of the fanbase though invariably when I have read them, they are practically airborne by the hot air contained within. She's always been a contrary person and there's likely a degree of getting off on winding folk up. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

carbonclem

I have great admiration for Yorke for the achievements during her racing career and also the bravery in facing the world recently.

Racing insight? Not so much. I’m sure the reading of races etc is all there but someone who has been so isolated for so long from the ‘coal face’ has no real current insight. Fair play she’s taking a living but it’s without any ‘weight’ in my opinion.

Vino'sGhost

Isn’t she a tranny?

shirley_basso

Well yes she's Robert Millar.

So she 'should' deserve respect given her/his palmares but she is now a celeb name to cyclingnews clickbait drivel.

RichN95.

CarbonClem wrote:

Racing insight? Not so much. I’m sure the reading of races etc is all there but someone who has been so isolated for so long from the ‘coal face’ has no real current insight. Fair play she’s taking a living but it’s without any ‘weight’ in my opinion.

I don't think she's really moved on, in cycling thinking, from the 80s.

Pross

Used to provide some good insights posting on here and up until recently their articles were usually quite good reading I thought.

RichN95.

The irony of York judging Froome's 'greatness' is that the victory most associated with Robert Millar is something most people have forgotten Froome won.

RichN95.

Pross wrote:

Used to provide some good insights posting on here and up until recently their articles were usually quite good reading I thought.

There was a shark jumping moment for me last year or perhaps earlier when she said that a team or individual (I can't remember which) should buy some wins. It was such a dated view of cycling.

carbonclem

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Isn’t she a tranny?

You should really shut the fuck up.

m.r.m.

Dolan Driver wrote:

What if any of the posters in the comments section truly hold the belief that Philippa York, having been born a man, is still a man, notwithstanding the fact that Robert Millar now chooses to dress and live as a woman and has taken a woman's name? In those circumstances, is it OK if they refer to P York as "he"? I agree with you that no-one should refer to Philippa York as a "he" simply to inflict insult.

This very debate has been ongoing in Canada and the USA over the course of the last two years, interestingly enough.

DD.

Jordan Peterson's point in this (in Canada) isn't about whether you should use he or she or they for a trans person. It's about whether the government has the right to mandate it one way or the other.

Both he and I agree that common decency demands you don't put your own beliefs above social norms and try to make others feel comfortable and welcome.

tim000

bobmcstuff wrote:

Much as I dislike Valverde he is clearly one of the best all round riders for some time, and seems to be able to deal with a very heavy race schedule (he's competitive all season).

well looking at his past there is probably a good reason for that :?

iainf72

M.R.M. wrote:

Both he and I agree that common decency demands you don't put your own beliefs above social norms and try to make others feel comfortable and welcome.

Quite right. And Peterson's real beef was trying mandate made up words are used, like ze or zer. Which seems entirely reasonable to me.

I disagree with JP a fair amount but I think he's right here

bobmcstuff

tim000 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Much as I dislike Valverde he is clearly one of the best all round riders for some time, and seems to be able to deal with a very heavy race schedule (he's competitive all season).

well looking at his past there is probably a good reason for that :?

Even still, he has been competitive all season long against similarly tainted opponents.

Back in the day I think that kind of ability, to compete week in week out March to September, was more or less the key determinant to success. Whereas these days it is much more specialised. So I don't think rich is necessarily wrong to suggest taking Valverde back in time might leave him an extremely successful rider.

RichN95.

It's hard to compare riders from different eras, but you can't argue against this.

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Both he and I agree that common decency demands you don't put your own beliefs above social norms and try to make others feel comfortable and welcome.

Quite right. And Peterson's real beef was trying mandate made up words are used, like ze or zer. Which seems entirely reasonable to me.

I disagree with JP a fair amount but I think he's right here

What makes people feel much more comfortable is being polite and using the pronouns and names they feel comfortable with.

Eg people here can make the leap between Rick and Richard, and the same at school ( “I prefer Rick to Richard, Miss”) easily enough. Can’t be that hard to move from he to she. People who don’t are just trying to signify their prejudice over the whole issue, and make people who feel different about their gender feel bad.

So, don’t be a d!ck and just use the pronoun people want you to use.

iainf72

Rick Chasey wrote:

So, don’t be a d!ck and just use the pronoun people want you to use.

Even if it's a made up word for a gender that doesn't exist?

No_Ta_Doctor

iainf72 wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Both he and I agree that common decency demands you don't put your own beliefs above social norms and try to make others feel comfortable and welcome.

Quite right. And Peterson's real beef was trying mandate made up words are used, like ze or zer. Which seems entirely reasonable to me.

I disagree with JP a fair amount but I think he's right here

Peterson massively overstated his case though, he objected to gender identity being added to the list of areas protected from discrimination on the entirely specious grounds that he would risk a committing criminal offence by mis-gendering someone or failing to use gender neutral terms. The actual bar of Canadian hate speech requirements is far, far, far higher than that. He's trying to make it a freedom of speech issue when it isn't. He's doing that because he has a pernicious agenda of trying to shore up white male privilege against the threat of other people having equal status.

above_the_cows

Jordan Peterson is a self-aggrandizing bully. In reference to the case Not tA Doc mentions, Peterson and his alt-right hit squad attacked a personal friend of mine (and a colleague of his at UoT) subjecting her to all manner of anti-Semitic and other forms of abuse all because she defended one of her student's request to be addressed by a pronoun they felt comfortable with.

narbs

Back to Froome.....

https://twitter.com/LeGruppetto/status/ ... 8918839296

kleinstroker

Hinault has had a word with the ASO

Amaury Sport Organization (ASO), owner of the Tour de France, is trying to prevent Christopher Froome from starting his race, Le Monde told source close to the case. By mail, the organizers have forbidden the Sky team to align their rider on the event to protect his image, because of the open doping procedure against him.

https://www.lemonde.fr/tour-de-france/article/2018/07/01/christopher-froome-ecarte-du-tour-de-france-par-les-organisateurs-l-equipe-sky-fait-appel_5323956_1616918.html

RichN95.

It seems a pretty dumb move by ASO. They're unlikely to win. I don't see what they hope to gain from it apart from trying to get Kylian Mbappe off the front page of L'Equipe for a day.

iainf72

I believe the kids call it "virtue signalling"

mamil314

CarbonClem wrote:

I have great admiration for Yorke for the achievements during her racing career and also the bravery in facing the world recently.

Racing insight? Not so much. I’m sure the reading of races etc is all there but someone who has been so isolated for so long from the ‘coal face’ has no real current insight. Fair play she’s taking a living but it’s without any ‘weight’ in my opinion.

Who could deny that York knows pretty well about what is going on but is, simply, cynically cashing in with CN on clicks readily supplied by logically challenger customers like our own Vino here

redvision

Same story here
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/aso-try ... de-france/

I find it hard to believe, especially as the article claims they informed sky by email. I can't imagine something this serious would be advised by email.
But even if true, I think it's an attempt by ASO to protect themselves. They will, unfortunately imo, lose the appeal but at least they can then turn around to critics and say that they did all they could to prevent Froome riding the tour.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

So, don’t be a d!ck and just use the pronoun people want you to use.

I would like you to refer to me as Your Majesty from now on. Thank you for your understanding

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So, don’t be a d!ck and just use the pronoun people want you to use.

I would like you to refer to me as Your Majesty from now on. Thank you for your understanding

That's a title, not a pronoun, but never mind.